Newbie's guide to Modifying your MK3 turbo

[ma71supraturbo]

Modification Order, MK3 Supra Turbo

There are many possible modification orders, but this staged list is the system I recommend for increasing your 7m-gte's power while maintaining good reliability. Please do not begin modifying unless your car is well maintained and running with no problems (i.e. proper head gasket, no overheating issues, good vacuum, good oil pressure, no misses, etc). Additionally please continue to keep up on your car's maintainence. A vacume leak at the accoridan hose, for example, is not a particularly dangerous condition for a stock mk3. But if your car is tuned for optimum power, you have taken away the extra safety of the over-rich factory tune and you could end up doing severe damage by running lean.

The following horsepower figures are estimated at the crank (bhp) and are based on a perfectly running mk3. For reference, a stock MK3 makes 230bhp (232bhp 89+) @ 6.8psi. I chose to list crank HP estimates for a few reasons. Automatic and manual cars make the same power at the engine, but manuals put more of that power to the ground (12-15% M/T drivetrain loss verses ~18-20% A/T). Additionally, modifications like light-weight flywheels and driveshafts will increase the rear wheel horsepower without actually increasing the power at the crank. And finally, because manufacturers list crank horsepower figures so this allows more of a direct comparison with newer cars. That said, it is important to realize that your car may make more or less power depending on a number of factors, so please take these and all horsepower figures with a grain of salt.



Stage 1:
Intake, 235bhp @ 7psi
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/Images/Products/Blitz/Intake_Systems_SUS_POWER_Air_Filter_Kit_(Stainless_Mesh_Filter).jpg The first thing to do in increasing any engine's performance is to make sure it can flow plenty of air. The simplest way to help an engine breathe better is by installing an aftermarket intake. There are many different brands out there, but Apexi performed the best in this test (http://mkiv.com/techarticles/filters_test/2/). For hints on installing a full intake kit, please see this tech tip (http://www.supras.com/sogidb/index.php?jumpto=techcenter&tech_jumpto=display_techtip&id=9). While you are at it, I also recommend the SOGI cold-air intake mod (http://www.supras.com/sogidb/index.php?jumpto=techcenter&tech_jumpto=display_techtip&id=11).


Stage 2:
Cat-back, 250bhp @ ~8psi
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/Images/Products/Tanabe/Exhaust_Systems_Super_Medallion_Hyper_Spec.jpg Continuing with the theme of better breathing, the next step is to install a cat-back exhaust. There are even more brands and styles of exhausts than intakes, so take your time and find one which best fits your needs for flow, looks, and sound. If you live in an area where corrosion is a problem, you probably will not want to settle for anything less than a full stainless system.


Stage 3:
Downpipe/elbow/primary cat or test pipe, 280bhp @ ~9psi
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/Images/Products/BIC/Downpipes_Divorced.jpg If you still want more power, then its time to replace the restrictive stock downpipe, turbo elbow, and secondary catalytic converter. This picture shows one of the simpler downpipes, although there are some downpipes that integrate a turbo elbow and test pipe in one unit. For the environmentally concerned, Random Technologies makes a high-flow cat that will replace the secondary cat, but it obviously will not flow as well as a "test pipe." One word of caution -- downpipes are not legal in all states as they replace the primary catalytic converter.


Stage 3.5:
Gauges

http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/Merchant/apex60mm_boost.jpg While gauges do not increase power, it is important especially if you want to continue modifying. At this point, you're probably already boosting 9 psi, which exceeds the stock boost gauge. Installing a new one, along with an Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT) gauge is also a good idea. An Air/Fuel ratio gauge is also good, but readings based on your factory O2 sensor are next to worthless so a wideband 02 sensor would be necessary. Other good gauges to consider are water temperature, oil pressure, and oil temperature. If you can afford it, look for gauges with a peak hold feature. These can be very helpful, as you cannot always pay close attention to your gauges when you are driving hard.


Stage 4:
Boost controller, 300bhp @ just under fuel cut
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/Images/Products/Greddy/Boost_Controllers_Profec_B_Spec_II.jpg Now that your engine can breathe freely and you can monitor what it's doing, it is time to turn up the boost with a boost controller. There are inexpensive manual boost controllers out there, but I have found it to be a pain to get out and adjust them every time the weather changes. The solution is an electronic boost controller which can not only be adjusted from inside the car, but some can also learn to better control your wastegate allowing the turbo to spool much faster.


Stage 5:
Intercooler and hardpipes, 320bhp @ just under fuel cut
http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/Merchant/hks_fmic.jpg If you still want more power, you will need to replace your stock intercooler and the restrictive stock intercooler piping. Compressing air creates heat, which can lead to detonation. Since you want to turn up the boost even more, you'll need an intercooler that can not only flow better but also do a better job of keeping the air cool. It also is a good idea to replace your factory bypass valve to prevent compressor surge.


Stage 5.5
fuel pump
http://www.gtpro.com/productimages/dpump.jpg When you try to boost too high, your ECU will cut fuel momentarily to prevent engine damage. Now that you want to exceed that limit, it is time to upgrade your fuel system. While it is possible to boost a little over fuel cut on the stock fuel system, it is not recommended -- especially if you have your sights set significantly higher. The first step to upgrading your fuel system is to then replace the fuel pump with one that can move more fuel. Walbro and the stock MKIV tt pump are common choices.


Stage 6:
Lexus AFM/550 injectors, 340bhp @ 15psi
http://www.rceng.com/injectors1.gif One of the most common ways around fuel cut is to use an Air Flow Meter off a Lexus V8. The basic gist is this air flow meter allows some unmetered air through tricking the stock ECU into thinking it is getting less air than it really is. Because the ECU thinks it is getting less air, the boost at which you hit fuel cut goes up. To offset this extra air, 550 injectors replace the stock 440 units. Details on this upgrade can be found here. (http://www.supras.com/~riemer/lexusriemer/lexusnotes.html) Recently, PHR has announced they will make a "map ecu" that will allow consumers to use a much less restrictive MAP sensor instead of an AFM. Details on this product can be found here. (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144196)


Stage 7:
Fuel tuning device and dyno tuning, 375bhp @ 16psi
http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/Merchant/apexsafc.jpg At this point, the car could benefit from some fine-tuning. Chances are you will be running rich, so an air/fuel controller can lean out the mixture and help further raise fuel cut. There are many options out there, so do a little research and decide on the best unit for your goals. If you must have the best, a standalone is the way to go but it is much more expensive, and is more difficult to tune (chances are you will have to have a professional tune it).



Stage 8:
Upgraded turbo
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/Images/Products/Sound_Performance/Turbo_Kits_SP60_for_MK3_Supra.jpgYou have now reached the useable limits of the stock turbo. It is possible to further increase the boost, but the turbo will be blowing such hot air that you will experience diminishing returns. Which turbo you go with will depend entirely on how far you want to take your Supra. If 450bhp or less is ok you can go with an upgraded CT26. 550bhp or less and you can go with a bolt-on hybrid turbo. If that is not enough, then you will be looking at a bigger turbo kit that replaces the exhaust manifold.




Here is the "original" stage chart that HKS put out years ago. It's main limitation is that it does not include a downpipe, turbo elbow, or test pipe so the upper horsepower figures are lower than people commonly see today:


1. Cat-back exhaust 251 bhp @ 8 psi

2. Super Power Flow Intake 259 bhp @ 8.5 psi

3. HKS EVC IV (boost controller) 285 bhp @11 psi

4. Intercooler kit 298 bhp @ 11.5 psi

5. PFC-FCON w/FCD 330 bhp @13.5 psi

6. Vein Pressure Converter 345 bhp @ 13.5 psi

7. Sport Turbo Upgrade/550cc injectors 438 bhp @ 15 psi

8. Cam Shafts, Cam Gears 453 bhp @ 15psi

[Silver88Turbo]

Good job Jeff!!

[SupraOfDoom]

Wouldn't a new IC and IC piping give more then 10 hp? I mean the stock piping and IC are a -3 psi drop... and each psi is 11 hp.. or something like that.

[Kracin]

thanks, im very much a newbie to my mkiii, and this helps alot with knowing what i need to get

[AWIDESUPIE]

Minimum:

Make sure the motor/motor components is/are running up to factory specifications and that the HG has been retorqued to 75+ ftlbs or that it has been replaced by a metal head gasket (<--with the head/block machined if MHG) or both. Info for checking ct26(stock) turbo:Turbo 101. (http://members.aol.com/mr2mkii/turbo.htm) Run good fluids in everything. Good fluids in our car would be,synthetic, from Amsoil, Redline, and Mobil 1. Be sure of no leaks. With new motor/rebuild/etc use standard/Dino/Petroleum oil for first oil change and then synthetic. Synthetic is too slippery for break-in periods. You may also want to run a PCV bypass to an oil-catch-can so that there wont be a lot of oil in your intercooling system. Check out www.suprasport.com , www.mvpmotorsports.com , www.suprastore.com ... many others for good products.

300+ crank HP and mid to high maybe even low 13 1/4mile times with a good driver:

First:Guages: Get a boost guage good for PAST 15 PSI. Get an EGT guage tapped into the #6 exhaust manifold runner (closest to firewall). Get an Air/Fuel guage. Possibly get a wideband 02 for precise tuning ( BUT ... your local dyno/tuning shop should have one for when you dyno tune ... so you may not want to pay for one for now).

BOV: Stocker is WEAK! We have cheap solutions though.
BOSCH BOVs/BPVs for Saab and/or Porsche can be used as a direct replacement for ABOUT 30$+ LABOR.
Enjoy the following link:BOV/BPV thread with many links. (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72552&highlight=BOSCH+BOV) Make sure to see the links in that thread.
The best Bosch PN is the 0 280 142 110 . This BOV/BPV should be good for 20+lbs of boost and not "hoot" at idle or show any other problems with installation/durability etc. There are also aftermarket BOVs from Grddy/HKS etc etc etc ... search the web.

Next: Exhaust: Most expensive power mod will be full 3+inch exhaust from your turbo all the way back. Include a muffler and a high flow catalytic cnverter if you want to pass smog. I reccomend going custom for the exhaust piping. Random Technologies makes good high flow cats and there are a bunch of good mufflers. Check out the websites I mentioned for good products.

Next: Intake: Cheapest intake is a factory drop in with a
modified/cut stock air box (http://members.optusnet.com.au/supra80/DSC00362.JPG) .
I am fairly sure that you can figure out how to modify the box, but ask if you need to. ITG filters are by far the best flowing and filtering filters produced in the world, currently (*I don't want to have a bunch of comments on this because I don't want the thread hijacked )... believe me or not, they are the best ... but it isn't always necessary to have the best because other filters such as K&N filter and flow "fine").
ITG filter site (www.itgairfilters.com)
Purchase ITG filters from Coast Fabrication (http://www.coastfab.com/itgairfilters.html)

Many other companies make drop-ins and entire kits for our car like amsoil/k&n/apexi/hks etc. Check the websites I mentoined above for product listings.

Next: Intercooler pipes: The stock intercooler is good, flawlessly, for around 400+hp ... but not everyone believes it except for the guys that are doing it. There are enough flow tests and guys doing it to be confident that the stock IC is good for 400+hp.
See the following link to ONE (of plenty) guy's mk3 running the stock intercooler with the intercooler pipes that we are going to talk about. The intercooler pipes write-up that we will be talking about was made by this guy:
John Lunsford at 7mpower.com. (http://www.7mpower.com/john_lunsford.shtml)
The following is the link to the PVC intercooler pipe write-up that will cost about 40$ tops (compare that to the 400+$ kits sold) and it will flow 400+HP guaranteed and not only withstand the heat but lower your EGTs better than the more expensive metal kits. <--- It is the same thing with the people who doubt the stock intercooler ... many don't believe in it, but it works flawlessly. (*I don't want to have a bunch of comments on this because I don't want the thread hijacked). You need to make sure that you get the correct temperature treated PVC and follow directions " to the 'T' ". <--- If you do then it will be flawless and you will be very pleased.JBLMK3 PVC IC pipe write-up FOR ONE STOCK INTERCOOLER. (http://www.jblmk3.com/id1_custom_jblmk3_intercooler_pipes.htm) <--- Follow this link and you will see other links within it to get parts needed and a sectioned write-up.

Want to run the same PVC IC pipe write-up FOR 2 STOCK INTERCOOLERS FOR BETTER COOLING AND HP NUMBERS (http://www.jblmk3.com/id87.htm) ? <--- Click that link.

Next: Cheapest way to increase boost: Shim Wastegate, JMBC bleeder, Ball+Spring. (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156263&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) **The only method I would reccomend is the ball+spring controller.** Other will most likely render inconsistant boost. You will want to increase boost as much as you can until you hit "Fuel Cut" (<---which really should be called "spark cut" becasue it cuts plug spark, not fuel). Fuel cut will come on at about 12 psi because the signal coming from your afm(air fuel meter ... thing behind the intake box and before the plastic accordian hose that goes to your turbo) will tell the TCCS(Toyota Computer Control System) that it is letting in too much air in and that your motor could be running lean so it cuts spark to keep you from running too hot/lean and from consequently "blowing up" your engine. "Fuel Cut" is a very good safety precaution for our motors, the only problem is that it hinders performance via high boost levels.

At this point, at around 11-12psi you should be running about 280-290 crank HP/340 crank torque which will also be close to "fuel cut" if not already a problem. Next we will talk about raising boost to the full, yet safe, potential of the stock turbo/fuel system by raising the "Fuel Cut" with the stock AFM.

Next: See Raising "Fuel Cut" with stock AFM (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150438) and Raising FC with stock AFM on SM. (http://www.supramania.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4958&highlight=raise+fuel+cut+stock+afm) and continue reading below.

Basically all that you do is utilize the stock adjustbale screw on the stock 7mgte AFM to allow air into the AFM system through the "extra AFM tunnel". Many people get the misconception that the AFM is now sucking in more air but it is sucking in the same amount of air. Since the air is now being sucked through the "extra tunnel", it is "sneaking by" the Karmam Vortex meter that meters air in the AFM. The Karman Vortex meter measure air FREQUENCY, NOT MASS. So, you get to suck in the same amount (mass) of air that you were before at that boost level BUT the meter doesn't read the same FREQUENCY at that boost level because the air is dispersed past the meter. BUT, as you raise the boost by shimming the wastegate more, there will be a point (preferably sometime after 15psi if you adjust the screw properly) that you will hit "Fuel Cut" again becasue the AFM will once again be metering the FREQUENCY signal that triggers "Fuel Cut".

*EDIT:Stay away from porting the afm. Porting can deteriorate eficiency of Karman Vortex meter which is very bad.

In this thread that I linked to above, you will notice that this is a somewhat "touchy" thing to do without fuel upgrades BUT it can be run flawlessly with the proper tuning. You, especially, should find this more convenient to do since you have a dyno/tuning shop near your home.

The turbo is safely run at 15psi. Owners have said that they mostly encountered stock turbo problems from boost elevated past 15psi.**Some owners do boost past 15psi on stock turbo .. but I would not reccomend it ... just in case.**

The fuel injectors have been mapped to have flow for over 400HP AT 100% DUTY AND AT 100% EFFICIENCY. John Lunsford has dynoed over 440+rwhp with stock injectors at 100% efficiency and duty. I do not know what the highest potential power numbers are that the stock fuel pump should be good for, but I know it can be run, with this set-up, with careful tuning. Also, Trey Parson's (SupraTrey) dynoed 440+rwhp with stock fuel pump with 12volt feed modification.

I am not saying that the stock fuel will not work fine for this set-up, untuned, but it shoud be tuned to insure effectiveness. Get it tuned at that local dyno shop near you (or whichever you think is best to tune at) and it should be fine. Worst case scenario should be that, it isn't working/tuning well (running lean), and that you need to get an Air Fuel Pressure Regulator (AFPR) ... (atleast) and/or possibly a fuel pump (Walbro 255per/hour) in order to increas fuel pressure. An AirFuelControler and or wideband 02 sensor would definitely help with tuning.

Now you should be running a fair amount over 300 crank HP (320 CRANK HP by the 11crank HP for every psi rule) ... "and mid to high maybe even low 13 1/4mile times with a good driver". Slicks/drag radials and some weight savings will also help out alot. ;) :D

EDIT: With 320+CRANK HP and A LOT of torque and 13 second 1/4 mile times, the stock clutch might be close to needing an upgrade. It will last for a while but I would not guarantee it to last forever at high abuse. There are various upgrades for the clutches at the sites I mentioned and at alot of various places. The internet is your friend, USE IT.

EDIT: In many cases for this list I used the most cost/reliablility ratio effective information available. Many of these "cheaper" parts can be replaced by more expensive brand name products found on the web, but they are not necessary for all applications ... especially not for these Basic Performance Upgrages.

[AWIDESUPIE]

Some FAQs/comments in regards to write-ups such as these:


[i] That sound like a lot. Are there cheaper ways?
[/B]

That really isn't "A WHOLE LOT" of mods/money to drop in. All of those mods are fairly cheap. The most expensive mods should be Exhaust at XXX HUNDRED$, GUAGES/SENSORS at XXX HUNDRED$.
*You MAY need to do the "EXTRA" mods if necessary.--> The extra fuel mods (AFPR [ATLEAST] AND/OR PUMP) would be low HUNDRED$ ...IF NECESSARY. CLUTCH could get expensive IF NECESSARY.
This is really FULL Basic Performance Upgrades for the mk3. It is basic/most cost/power-effective ratio that we know of.


Has anyone had any problems doing these mods to a stock car? I worked with a lot of older cars, and sometimes doing mods like this would fry bearing, cause BHG, or just screw with the car somehow. I also wanna avoid blowing up the turbo for now, so I might just push it to 11. Need to get more guage pods, and I need to see how much they want for the pipes. I know that isnt gonna be cheap.

This is the reason why the first thing that I said was that you need to MAKE SURE THAT YOUR MOTOR AND ALL OF IT'S COMPONENTS (HG/INJECTORS/ FP/ALL FILTERS) ARE DOING WELL ... ETC. Have your motor/drive-rain looked over "top to bottom" by a skilled mechanic. Read it again if you need to. YOU WON'T HAVE ANY OF THESE PROBLEMS IF EVERYTHING ABOVE IS PERFORMED/INSTALLED/TUNED PROPERLY.
The turbo should also be fine for well over a year if the seals are in good condition and the turbo doesn't have too much shaft-play (AGAIN, MAKE SURE THAT YOUR MOTOR/MOTOR COMPONENTS ARE WORKING PROPERLY FIRST).

**EDIT: SERIOUSLY AND MOST IMPORTANT in regards to your statement. THE HG! Head Gasket needs attention. The stock HG torque specs are near worthless. If the HG isn't bad already, it needs to be ATLEAST retorqued. The best thing to do is get a Metal Head Gasket and ARP studs and torque it all down to 75ftlbs to 95ftlbs. For MHG prep, you will need to machine/clean the block and head for the smoothest/cleanest/flatest surfaces possible. See a reputable racing/machine shop or search/ask on the forums if you need proper HG prep information.

_______________________________________________


Do I really need all of those guages/sensors? They add up to a fairly high cost and I am wondering if I need to spend that much money on guages.

With a good running motor and the above mods to help keep your flow up and EGTs down, you probably would only really need a boost guage to tune your boost level. The other guages would just be confirming that your car is running as it shoud, or letting you know otherwise and allowing you to tune better. BUT, I think that it is essential to have the other guages for proper monitoring just to give you a warning if anything is running a little "off".
Ask around the forum/look around the web and you should be able to find guages for fairly cheap. ( XXX HUNDRED BUCKS AT MOST FOR ALL OF THE ABOVE GUAGES.) The boost guage might run you 100 bucks or less if your search carefully.

Best regards.

[SupraOfDoom]

Yeah I understand IC's aren't really for HP improvements, but I think thats more of a realistic guess.

[ma71supraturbo]

Originally posted by SupraOfDoom
Wouldn't a new IC and IC piping give more then 10 hp? I mean the stock piping and IC are a -3 psi drop... and each psi is 11 hp.. or something like that.

take all the hp figures with a grain of salt -- they are estimates. But the boost level is low at that point so I dont think the IC would give a huge gain -- yet. It certainly would if you were boosting 17-20psi, but probably not at 11-13psi. You'll notice the HKS stage chart gives a 13hp gain when going to the intercooler/hardpipes, and it indicates a gain of of only .5psi boost. But I did change the bhp level for the boost controller so it now gives the IC/hardpipes a 15 bhp improvement.

[ma71supraturbo]

This is a post from the highly informative thread "Racing/modding your mk3 for newbies at the drag strip." I have snipped most of the drag-racing specific commentary from this post, but if you're interested you can read his thread here (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147424). It is also in the General FAQ section


Originally posted by Mike 92LX
Make sure your car is up the task of going fast. If you have mechanical problems-fix them. Things like bad valve seals,lack of tune up,excessive blowby,oil consumption,slipping clutches and coolant/oil leaks are a recipe for more problems. Fix them!!!


Shortblock. If you have do a leakdown test or have determined its time for a rebuild spend the money and do it right. Make a realistic goal and address the shortcomings of the design when it comes time to build up. Machine work and engine shops are like body and paint. No deals here. You get what you pay for. Get your motor done by someone who does high performance stuff and get references. The fast people will know the best local people for you to go to. A stock replacement place will not yield the best results. This is why some cars run better than others with the same combo.

Cylinder head-min requirement. A 3 angle valve job,test to see if head is within specs and new valve seals regardless if the old ones look okay. If you have the money and are looking to goo really fast porting and polishing is well worth it. Make sure the heads are flowed before and after. Having cousin Vinny do them is a no no. Get a pro to do it.
Portmatching the gaskets on the exhaust manifold,intake manifold and cylinder head is worth the efforts. Sneaky too.

Synthetics-use them. Everywhere. Period. If car is leaking oil-fix the problem. The added cost is nothing compared to the benefits and HP gain. Synthetic blends are a waste.


Mods:

I feel if you want power more than stock this is the base for it. Full exhaust,o2 housing,electronic boost controller,1 piece driveshaft,some sort of blow off valve(SAAB-no-fresh MK4-okay and cheap),synthetics,a real boost guage,autolight 3923 plugs with a smaller gap by about .10 over 11psi,bypassed fuel restrictor,K&N filtercharger kit,Walbo Pump(MK4 TT is good but pricey) and a FCD. Start with a good motor and then go intake and exhaust. Will be like a different car and will be reliable. Plus they support future modifications.


If you go crazy and use piggy backs before running the car have it tuned by a pro. The piggy backs make the car run rich to keep you from getting in trouble. They can help make serious power. Get help doing this. Don't get into the hype of peak HP. Its highly misleading. A car with a well tuned layout will waste one with even 100 MOR peak HP. TUNE the car!!

[AWIDESUPIE]

The following, would be the path that I would explain for the 6k-10k $ mod mark (depending on how much/how well and proper you want to do the work) resulting in anywhere from upper 300HP to upper 400HP and 1/4 mile times consistantly in the 12s and potentialy mid-high 11s with a good driver (all depending on boost levels/proper intallation and tuning and the many various factors of nature).

See these threads for SOME OF MANY that will give you an idea:
"Quick" qestion ... pun intended ;) (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151041)

There are links in that thread to CT26 Upgrade info thread and RegReimer info on LEX AFM mods and misc Turbo info. You will also notice, from my posts, that there are other more effective methods than a LEX AFM, but LEX AFM is usually the cheapest and it is good for over 500hp.
MAKE SURE TO CHECK OUT THE CT26 UPGRADE THREAD AND THE LEX INFO LINK THAT IS IN THE ABOVE THREAD.

Top SF MK3 1/4 Mile times/mods lists. (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115599)
This will give you a good idea of various set-ups.

These links should prove to you that there is alot more to do for over BPU.
Most of the info mentioned is in regards to ct26 upgrades because they usually cost around 500$ or less and when you support them with proper fuel and cooling and they then have excellent potential for mid to high 11 1/4 mile time and mid to high 400hp #s if you crank up the boost. BUT ... you should also pay attention/be aware of the info in regards to using turbos larger/more efficient that the ct26 and the supporting mods that yould would need for those typed of larger turbos.

When questing to add power/ motor performance with forced induction (Turbos/Superchargers) , all you ever look to do is upgrade turbos/superchargers that will run higher boosts/air flow more efficiently and then support the extra air flow with proper fuel (injectors/pumps/regulators/etc) and cooling (intercoolers, intercooler piping/ etc) and the proper engine management to manage/tune these additions (guages/many various electronics).

Motor performance is all managing more air/fuel ... more efficiently. A motor is like a large vaccum.

Best regards.

[grankor]

A guy at the local dyno shop suggested that we won't get any REAL power out of the engine unless we got a computer for it....Does this sound right? He said that the bpu that we talk about would merely add 30-40 hp. IF that......

He also recommended (cause I have a auto) a torque converter. A good one.

opinions from the gear heads?

[ma71supraturbo]

Originally posted by grankor
A guy at the local dyno shop suggested that we won't get any REAL power out of the engine unless we got a computer for it....Does this sound right? He said that the bpu that we talk about would merely add 30-40 hp. IF that......


Your local guy at the dyno shop is probably used to smaller displacement, non-turbo imports coming in and talking about 70hp gains from intake/exhaust. But in the case of the MK3 turbo, yes it can happen. I believe Defcon (now out of business) dynoed 280rwhp or something like that with their downpipe/turbo elbow, a test pipe, a cat-back, and an intake. Thats 80rwhp over stock. Their results arent totally typical, but I believe they were legit.

Unlike most popular cars, there are no readily availble "chips" for our ECU. But there are "piggy-back" fuel tuning aids (see the staged chart), standalone computers, or you can even have Techtom rework your ECU (probably the closest thing to a "chip").




He also recommended (cause I have a auto) a torque converter. A good one.

The stock automatic is supposedly good for ~300rwhp with an aftermarket transmission fluid cooler. I estimate that I am at ~290rwhp with a cooler and my automatic is holding up to my occasional beatings at drag strips. There are companies that sell upgrades for our transmissions if you want to go to the ~400-450rwhp level. If you want to go higher than that, you will probably want to convert to a either GM tranny, or put the stock mk3 manual transmission in.

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by grankor
A guy at the local dyno shop suggested that we won't get any REAL power out of the engine unless we got a computer for it....Does this sound right? He said that the bpu that we talk about would merely add 30-40 hp. IF that......

He also recommended (cause I have a auto) a torque converter. A good one.

opinions from the gear heads?

Are you sure that you explained everything correctly to him?... If you did, then I suggest tuning with somebody else, who knows more about supras/forced induction etc. I find it funny that a dyno tuning professional would say somehting like that, unless you didn't explain everything/didn't explain it properly.

All the mods above will yeild power mentioned "with a grain of salt" as Ma71 stated.

Ex: For my mod list I mention approximately 320+ crank hp with a motor/drivetrain that work as well as they should. Figure in ABOUT a 15% power loss through heat/friction from drivetrain and you have ABOUT 272RWHP. Regardless, this is a good "round-about" figure and would constitute and increase of power from 232 crank to 320 crank which yeilds a gain of 88 crank HP.

This is an excellent estimate that has been around for close to 17years now, but it is over double of what your local tuner explains as max possible power gained. Therefore, I would guess that either the tuner dosn't know what he is talking about or that there is a lack of efficient communication/understanding.

Electronics for engine management and tuning (piggyback like afc/avcr/boost controllers/guages/ etc etc) will further help to increase efficiency and power gains but you do not need them for the above explained power mods unless they were explained to be necessary. They will always help though when intsalled/tuned properly.

I wonder if this "tuner" of yours knows that similar mods on the mk4 TT supra can unleash 150+HP. There are bpu TTs that dyno close to 500HP from the stock 320HP.

MA71 explained about the auto transmission and ECU/electronics very well. See above.
_______________

**EDIT: Post edited for better spelling. This post and ma71s above are both good for FAQs and responses to them. I am also going to add some statements from posts of mine below that I think are relevant. They will be added below this "EDIT" but in this post and I will delet my posts that have the same info below. MA71 can then clean up this post to make it more useful (IE: Deleting this explanation about what I am doing etc).

EDIT 2: Below is the further attatched info. Now, grankor's first post in this thread (above) is good for deletion as are the next 6 posts below this post that include a conversation between me/grankor/and luvmysolver supra (grankor's next 3 posts/luvmy's next 2 posts/my next post).

______________

(pertinent to grankor FAQ/responses for any newb that would ask similar questions) Bottom line about your comments Grankor:

Basically, you and your "tuner" BOTH need to learn more about the 7mgte/a304e(or whatever you call the auto trans... please fix the code for the turbo auto trans to the proper code) if you are going to be fooling with them at all.
It is important to understand engines/trans very well before you modify them.

I reccomend that you keep reading all the info that you can from forums/books and www.howstuffworks.com.
It is important that you read all of the stickies and FAQs on this site and any other forum that you find and learn more about the 7mgte and whatever transmission that you intend to be using/modifying. Searching for things to read on forums/internet (www.howstuffworks.com) is also very good if you have time and want to learn more about something.

Just some side notes(I think that this info including the stock/baseline dynograph and the short explanatory text above and below it is a great thing to put at the tip top of this thread for baseline information): The 7mgte(ct26 turbo 7m), in completely stock condition, puts ABOUT 180-190-200rwhp to the ground OPTIMAL and 160-190 avg EDIT: Here is a pic of Da Kine's dtock dyno http://home.comcast.net/~bahamut-rogue/My_Dyno.JPG and here is some text about it:.
By Da Kine: Here's the numbers in text form.
Run 1: 185.3rwhp/213.6rwtq
Run 2: 188.8rwhp/216.9rwtq
It's like 17-18% drive train loss if I'm still making 232 at the crank. A dyno cannot measure bhp, only whp. I looked around for some old articles to see what a mkIII baselined at when they were new and I'm pretty much spot on.


About somebody "showing you the ropes" , that's what we are here to explain, but if you need "hands on" help then try to make friends with some qualified/experienced peeople in your area.

Search for some local shops that know about the 7mgte and various supras.

Search for some mk3 turbo owners in your area and establish a local network for help and information. That's what the forums are for. You may be surprised how many 7mgte/transmission experienced people that you can find in your area by making a post about it in the regional or general sections. You may find many knowledgeable people in your area that will be more than happy to meet and to help you

If the local tuner "seems to know what he is talking about" then make sure that you know what you are talking about and that you are explaining it to him in ways that he can understand.

Most any turbo car will respond to mods in similar ways because of the increase of air flow that a turbo needs but is usually denied from the factory.

Last but not least, please try not to hijack threads. When you start tangent conversations about the domestic/import ratio in your hometown and other various things it takes away from good elements of a good, "on-topic" thread. Do not feel too guilty of this because every one of the mebers on here, including myself, is guilty of thread hijacks .. but we try not to. If you can, start new topics or PM people. I would have PMed this to you and deleted your posts but 1. I am not a mod so I cannot delete your posts so I figured I should respond to them here .. 2. I know that some of this will most likely be deleted later by ma71 because I think this thread was intended to be infomative only and not contain a lot of discussion.

Respond to this when you read it and then ma71 will know that it is ok to delete some of our less pertinent posts. A simple "I got it" or similar post will be sufficient. No need to post sometihng that would continue too much tangent conversation in this thread.

(This entire post need some editing .. and I parenthetically explained where some editing should be ... but especially these last two paragreaphs above can be deleted ... I ust left them so that you could understand what they were, Jeff ... BEST REGARDS)

AGAIN: Now, grankor's first post in this thread (above) is good for deletion as are the next 6 posts below this post that include a conversation between me/grankor/and luvmysolver supra (grankor's next 3 posts/luvmy's next 2 posts/my next post).

[grankor]

Well, the guy SEEMED to know what he was talking about.....I don't think he knew what I was talking about.

Basically, the local scene here is camaros and corvettes...old muscle cars.
He said "yeah, we do some of those smaller cars. Look at what we have on the stand." It was neat, a TT ford contour....but it was a FORD....a GODDAMN FORD!!!!

I said, yeah, I kinda figured you domestic guys would turn your nose up at an import.
In reply to this, he said "No, no...Toyotas are good cars. I drive a toyota. *points to his old assed camry* Thats a nice little car you got there."
Told him what the stock RWHP was, he said that it was probably closer to 180 with the turbo.
The guy is basically a domestic gear head, has more credentials than I have hair on my balls....but, its all domestic. His walls were completely covered in camaros, chargers, chevelles, corvettes....not a single import. Although I'm sure he knows what he's doing as far as cars go, I don't think he's up to speed on the import scene. Unfortunately, my options are limited where I live. This is the closest dyno, and I haven't seen or heard of ANY import tuner shops here. *sigh* I miss being in Washington state. Red line and speed zone were only 30 minutes away. :(

[grankor]

Originally posted by ma71supraturbo


Your local guy at the dyno shop is probably used to smaller displacement, non-turbo imports coming in and talking about 70hp gains from intake/exhaust. But in the case of the MK3 turbo, yes it can happen. I believe Defcon (now out of business) dynoed 280rwhp or something like that with their downpipe/turbo elbow, a test pipe, a cat-back, and an intake. Thats 80rwhp over stock. Their results arent totally typical, but I believe they were legit.

Unlike most popular cars, there are no readily availble "chips" for our ECU. But there are "piggy-back" fuel tuning aids (see the staged chart), standalone computers, or you can even have Techtom rework your ECU (probably the closest thing to a "chip").




The stock automatic is supposedly good for ~300rwhp with an aftermarket transmission fluid cooler. I estimate that I am at ~290rwhp with a cooler and my automatic is holding up to my occasional beatings at drag strips. There are companies that sell upgrades for our transmissions if you want to go to the ~400-450rwhp level. If you want to go higher than that, you will probably want to convert to a either GM tranny, or put the stock mk3 manual transmission in. [/B]

I actually don't mind the auto. I can come right off the line boosting, which is nice. I can't do as many tricks with an auto...but hey....I think I'll try it for now.
Transmission cooler....*sigh* I have never installed anything like this before, and basically what I was looking for was an experienced person who can show me the ropes. damn it.... I don't even know how one of those would fit.

The guy is looking into supra parts, as far as a cpu unit. He is supposed to give me a call....that is...if he feels like dealing with an import. Oh well.....Maybe I'll grab a shop manual and go from there.

I do wanna replace the Head Gasket, as I don't want to be FORCED to replace it later. So, mhg, here I come. After that, Ill probably do the exaust, intake, and BOV....along with little pointers given earlier about shimming the turbo. I don't wanna push it TOO far. The engine does have 90K miles on it now, and I can't afford to put $2500 in a new turbo yet.

[LuvMySilverSupra]

i've never heard of a stock mk3 dynoing 200rwhp. most are 170-190 depending on the condition

[grankor]

Originally posted by LuvMySilverSupra
i've never heard of a stock mk3 dynoing 200rwhp. most are 170-190 depending on the condition

Are you talking about the turbo, or NA?

Pretty sure the NA was 200, and the turbo was 230.

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by grankor
Are you talking about the turbo, or NA?

Pretty sure the NA was 200, and the turbo was 230.

He said RWHP ... Rear Wheel Horse Power ... NOT Crank HP or Base HP.

Turbo BASE/CRANK HP was 230-232. NA BASE/CRANK HP was 200.
Figure ABOUT a 15% loss of power to get RWHP.

Like I said above, I will send you links to more information, but due to forum rules I am not allowed to post them here. Check your Private Messages Inbox.

EDIT: PM sent.

Once again MA71, PLEASE DON'T DELETE THESE POSTS UNTIL GRANKOR HAS BEEN GIVEN A CHANCE TO NOTIFY US THAT HE READ THEM. Thanks.

[LuvMySilverSupra]

thats exactly who i was thinkin of when i put those numbers. :)

[MKIIISupraGuy]

with all due respect i don't think it's possible to have 390hp @ stage 7. I highly doubt the ct-26 could flow that much air on a stock 7M-GTE. If this WAS possible, we would have seen a few stock ct-26 MK3's in the 12's already. As it is, it's hard enough for guys with upgraded ct-26's to get into the 12's.

[MrBoost]

All this stuff needs to be consolidated, cleaned up, edited for utmost clarity and posted on a website as a permanent resource. This thread will be burined within weeks, then the newbies will still be out there, scrambling for info.

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by MKIIISupraGuy
with all due respect i don't think it's possible to have 390hp @ stage 7. I highly doubt the ct-26 could flow that much air on a stock 7M-GTE. If this WAS possible, we would have seen a few stock ct-26 MK3's in the 12's already. As it is, it's hard enough for guys with upgraded ct-26's to get into the 12's.

I agree. I don't see how really anything past the 320-330hp@15psi on stock turbo is attainable except maybe with a little tuning you can squeez some more power out.

It also says 330hp at under fc. This seems to not be reasonable either. You should max out at about 290(at VERY best) when under fc.
I would say that after the injectors/lexafm to raise fc and tuning you would be at no more crank than 320-340HP. JMO.

390HP sounds like a big stretch if you ask me.


Mr Boost said: All this stuff needs to be consolidated, cleaned up, edited for utmost clarity and posted on a website as a permanent resource. This thread will be burined within weeks, then the newbies will still be out there, scrambling for info.

I agree and ma71 is keeping an eye on this thread. I think he intends to clean it up and make it mainly an informative/non-discussion thread.

Grankor PMed me that he read the "OFF-TOPIC" info that I felt compelled to post in order to give him an understanding etc. So some of his posts are ready to be deleted. However, some of his questions/our answers can be used as some FAQ to these mods. I will be editing my posts in attempt to clean them up so that they can be left as FAQ. A PM will also be sent to ma71 to let him know about this.

I feel that ma71/my first responses to Grankor's first question is a good FAQ and also that the baseline dyno and some of the info from that post of mine is a good thing to have in this thread as well. I will make some edits to try to make it look like FAQs with answers instead of it looking like a personal discussion with grankor.

I also think that the power numbers from Jeff's first write-up need to be further discussed since there are plenty that would think of those numbers to be impossible to attain with the stock turbo and the listed mods.

[paddlenbike]

Great job you guys. The more I learn about Supras the more I believe in the basic modification path spelled out by ma71supraturbo. Nice work.

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by paddlenbike
Great job you guys. The more I learn about Supras the more I believe in the basic modification path spelled out by ma71supraturbo. Nice work.

Actually, we agree in the mod path that ma71 wrote but the numbers seem to be embellished/not fathomable. BUT ... the mod path is great, it just won't yeild those numbers TMK.

Thanks for the compliments. This is a little time consuming, but most of this info is a copy of paste from various threads of the past where I explained this stuff already, so it wasn't too difficult to transfer the info here.

[Beef]

Great write up :bigok:

[AWIDESUPIE]

About any problems when linking to some of the links in the write-up to SOGI information. The iste seems to be experiencing some problems so I contacted Jeff M. He relied: SOGI
supras.com server is being moved this wknd, so sporatic malfunction will result. Tks for looking-out!

The links will work again. Be patient. Best regards.

[ma71supraturbo]

Originally posted by MKIIISupraGuy
with all due respect i don't think it's possible to have 390hp @ stage 7. I highly doubt the ct-26 could flow that much air on a stock 7M-GTE. If this WAS possible, we would have seen a few stock ct-26 MK3's in the 12's already. As it is, it's hard enough for guys with upgraded ct-26's to get into the 12's.


Thats 339rwhp assuming 15% drivetrain loss. It is not hard at all to get a ct26 to get 339rwhp. I think you guys are all missing the fact that these are crank numbers and estimates. If you have dyno sheets with numbers that you would like to give -- please do.


EDIT: This is a post about before/after ct26 upgrade dyno numbers. 340rwhp at 16psi tuned = 390bhp


Originally posted by dbsupra
well- i dyno'd w/ intake, dp, exh, 12psi. 240/330
same mods plus ic and 60t 10psi untuned 290/dont remem trq
same mods plus afc and tuning 16psi 340/410

hth

dave

[ma71supraturbo]

As for Da Kine's 188.8 rwhp graph -- that is a 23% drivetrain loss assuming 232bhp. Thats too much drivetrain loss IMHO so I'm assuming he has other issues at hand, or was an automatic who forgot to lock-up his torque converter. I would expect a fresh engine completely stock 5 speed MK3 turbo to make 195rwhp (230bhp assuming 15% drivetrain loss)

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by ma71supraturbo
Thats 339rwhp assuming 15% drivetrain loss. It is not hard at all to get a ct26 to get 339rwhp. I think you guys are all missing the fact that these are crank numbers and estimates. If you have dyno sheets with numbers that you would like to give -- please do.


EDIT: This is a post about before/after ct26 upgrade dyno numbers. 340rwhp at 16psi tuned = 390bhp

me:Those numbers from db were attained with a 60trim upgrade, which is not mentioned as a mod in your mod list. The 60trim will flow more air at the same psi and therefore the numbers from your write-up would be more on ... BUT ... your write-up assumes stock ct26. I am a firm believer that those numbers are not attainable with a stock ct26 but definitely possible with a 60trim upgrade for the ct26.

I am going to copy and paste the PM you just sent me if you don't mind. IMO .. you should have written that reply in here becasue it answered other people's questions too.
___________


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MKIIISupraGuy
with all due respect i don't think it's possible to have 390hp @ stage 7. I highly doubt the ct-26 could flow that much air on a stock 7M-GTE. If this WAS possible, we would have seen a few stock ct-26 MK3's in the 12's already. As it is, it's hard enough for guys with upgraded ct-26's to get into the 12's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




MA71: 350rwhp has on stock ct26 has been done. My numbers are crank horsepower, and estimates.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It also says 330hp at under fc. This seems to not be reasonable either. You should max out at about 290(at VERY best) when under fc.
I would say that after the injectors/lexafm to raise fc and tuning you would be at no more crank than 320-340HP. JMO.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




MA71: thats ~ 280rwhp -- which was done by defcon.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Boost said: All this stuff needs to be consolidated, cleaned up, edited for utmost clarity and posted on a website as a permanent resource. This thread will be burined within weeks, then the newbies will still be out there, scrambling for info.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





MA71: Yes, I was hoping to see people post dyno sheets with info and to refine the list a bit to make it more acceptable to most people. I'm going to dig through some old dyno sheets now, and if my numbers really are that off, I'm going to change them





quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grankor PMed me that he read the "OFF-TOPIC" info that I felt compelled to post in order to give him an understanding etc. So some of his posts are ready to be deleted. However, some of his questions/our answers can be used as some FAQ to these mods. I will be editing my posts in attempt to clean them up so that they can be left as FAQ. A PM will also be sent to ma71 to let him know about this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




MA71: Yeah I think this should be a place for newbies to ask the questions now. That way they can be addressed and put into a nice FAQ. What I plan on doing after two weeks or so, is going through and redoing the list and answering other FAQ's in a reasonably well-organized manor.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also think that the power numbers from Jeff's first write-up need to be further discussed since there are plenty that would think of those numbers to be impossible to attain with the stock turbo and the listed mods.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



MA71: yup, I'm sure tons of people will say they are too high/low so lets get it cleared up now

[ma71supraturbo]

ah I misread db's post. I read it as 340 before and 410 after

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by ma71supraturbo
ah I misread db's post. I read it as 340 before and 410 after

heh. Naw. He is talking about rwhp/rwtq ratios with each description of ewhat achieved the numbers to the left of the ratio. Get it?

So at 12psi stock turbo/stock IC (right before fc), he got 240rwhp .. which is also under 300crank HP.

I am confident to say to everyone that the best estimate that you can have for crank power on the stock ct26 is to have a baseline of 232crank at 7psi and add 11crank hp for every 1 psi pushed through the stock turbo. It comes out almost dead-on.

[ma71supraturbo]

Ok looks like I'll be lowering it to 375 (assuming a test pipe is worth 10bhp as these numbers are with a cat on):

originally posted by Nick_B

310.6hp/367.6tq @15psi (bleeding off to ~12psi at redline) on stock CT-26, lexus, 550, spearco, hardpipes, 3" elbow/downpipe/cat/catback. AFR was ~11.9 from 3000-6500 rpm. Numbers are actual, SAE numbers were 312.96/366.90. These numbers are all on 93 octane pump gas.

Car also made 245hp/252tq at stock boost and 264hp/285tq at 10psi (before tuning).
Dr. J commented that those numbers were pretty much spot on with his...




And this one is with no IC/hardpipes and non-aggresive tuning:

originally posted by spoolint78
89 supra dyno
Well we finally took my brothers car to the dyno, his mods include

550cc's
lexus afm
full exhaust with cutout and elbow
avc-r
hks afr
intake
and 15psi

He put down 285rwhp and 386ftlbs...With a stock turbo

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by ma71supraturbo
Ok looks like I'll be lowering it to 375 (assuming a test pipe is worth 10bhp as these numbers are with a cat on):

Dr. J commented that those numbers were pretty much spot on with his...




And this one is with no IC/hardpipes and non-aggresive tuning:
First quote is better, but to be safe, I would consider no power gain with the test pipe.

The second quote seems more spot on. Without bigger injectors and tuning from the avcr, it is very similar to my mod list.

My mod list with 15% drivetrain loss and no inj etc would consider 272rwhp. So, with the injectors and tuning I could definitely see the extra ~10bhp.
See my above edit too and check your PM box .

[ma71supraturbo]

Suprastore's *edited* staged mod list:

STAGE I

We know we need to increase air flow, so lets start there. First lets make sure the air coming into the engine is clean and without restrictions. This requires us to have a nice air intake system. The K&N FIPK solves this portion of the equation rather well, with it's 1,000,000 mile guaranteed and washable filter system. The HP gain with this is modest (5-7hp), but it gets us the clean air in the quantity that we want for a turbo car that is planning on running 11.5 psi.

STAGE II 250HP

Secondly we want to make sure that we can get all of that air out of the engine as efficiently as possible. Since we have a large air pump of an engine we want to be absolutely positive that we can get the exhaust energy OUT of the car as fast as it goes in! On a turbo car, BIGGER IS BETTER, because restrictions create back pressure and back pressure hinders boost!! Remember, it is BOOST that gives us POWER! A good quality exhaust system is the KEY here in minimizing restrictions.


Stage III - 285 HP

Now that we have an intake and exhaust system, we can increase the boost up to 11.5 psi and gain some HP. An electronic boost controller is the key to this portion of the equation. An electronic boost control regulates the factory turbo boost and is fully programmable from lower to higher settings.



Stage IV 300HP

We pick up on the exhaust system where we left off previously to further reduce exhaust back pressure and to help that turbo spool up (reaching maximum rpm quicker). We do this by eliminating both catalytic converters from the exhaust system. Yes, this officially makes the car an off-road vehicle, but it is good for the final 20HP in the equation, so the choice is yours.




Their stage 4 uses a stock elbow, and a HKS downpipe (2.5" before the flex section)

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by Eko Ramadan
MAKE IT A STICKY :beerchug:

He plans on discussing the accuracy of the write-ups here and then starting another thread, with the same yet possibly improved upon info, to be informative only/FAQ/Sticky.

Jeff, I got your PMs ... ^^^obviously.


About your "edited" write-up/mvp mod list. I agree with everything until stage 4 at 300bhp from no cats. If boost is still at 11.5 psi and power only comed from boost and you cant really boost much higher if at all due to fc then you cannot increase power without increasing boost which can't be done without increasing fc. The better flowing exhaust due to no cats is only going to imprvove/widen the power band. Because of less back pressure, the spool will be quicker and there will be less back-pressure to hinder boost at high rpms providing god boost to redline. BUT ... since the boost is not increased via boost controller modded in stage 3, there will be not extra power, only a wider power band. This is my understanding. Comments?

[SupraTrey]

All i got to say is thanks for the dedication and time consumed by the effort it takes to put something like this together..... GREAT JOB. This Thread is Invaluable. Good work guys.


Trey

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by SupraTrey
All i got to say is thanks for the dedication and time consumed by the effort it takes to put something like this together..... GREAT JOB. This Thread is Invaluable. Good work guys.


Trey

Thanks Trey! Kind words, especially from you, are so "touching" :D ;) :p .

[ma71supraturbo]

Originally posted by AWIDESUPIE
About your "edited" write-up/mvp mod list. I agree with everything until stage 4 at 300bhp from no cats. If boost is still at 11.5 psi and power only comed from boost and you cant really boost much higher if at all due to fc then you cannot increase power without increasing boost which can't be done without increasing fc. The better flowing exhaust due to no cats is only going to imprvove/widen the power band. Because of less back pressure, the spool will be quicker and there will be less back-pressure to hinder boost at high rpms providing god boost to redline. BUT ... since the boost is not increased via boost controller modded in stage 3, there will be not extra power, only a wider power band. This is my understanding. Comments?

I'm not sure I completely understand your post, but I'll try to answer what I do understand.

Your boost will go up when you install a full exhaust and intake. Why this happens, I don't really know because I would have assumed the wastegate would still only care about seeing 6.8psi -- but boost does go up (in my case it went from 5psi to 8psi on an automatic with a stock turbo elbow).

this is "stage 3" on my list and would be ~9psi with a manual and a turbo elbow. You still have 3-5psi more before fuel cut, so stage 4's boost controller does increase the power before hitting fuel cut. I did not list the fuel cut boost level because it differs depending on your elevation/weather. But the amount of air is the same, so the power should be the same


Did I answer your question?

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by ma71supraturbo
I'm not sure I completely understand your post, but I'll try to answer what I do understand.

Your boost will go up when you install a full exhaust and intake. Why this happens, I don't really know because I would have assumed the wastegate would still only care about seeing 6.8psi -- but boost does go up (in my case it went from 5psi to 8psi on an automatic with a stock turbo elbow).

this is "stage 3" on my list and would be ~9psi with a manual and a turbo elbow. You still have 3-5psi more before fuel cut, so stage 4's boost controller does increase the power before hitting fuel cut. I did not list the fuel cut boost level because it differs depending on your elevation/weather. But the amount of air is the same, so the power should be the same


Did I answer your question?

Did you answer my question? : No.

Did you help make my point?: Yes.

Did I help you to understand by making my post as clear as possible?: No, but I will try to this time.
__________________
By ma71: this is "stage 3" on my list and would be ~9psi with a manual and a turbo elbow ... 3-5psi more before fuel cut, so stage 4's boost controller does increase the power before hitting fuel cut.

Not according to your last edited mvp mod list which is what I thought we would bopth be referring to.


By ma71: Suprastore's *edited* staged mod list: Stage III - 285 HP: Now that we have an intake and exhaust system, we can increase the boost up to 11.5 psi and gain some HP. An electronic boost controller is the key to this portion of the equation. An electronic boost control regulates the factory turbo boost and is fully programmable from lower to higher settings. [/qoute]

_____________________
By me:
You said in one quote that you stage 3 is 9psi at 280bhp (these are figures from the first page with the UNedited mod list and would just like to say that I don't think 280bhp at 9spi is possible on a stock 7mgte and I don't care if that's what defcon said they got when they tested thier dowpipe on the car because I think that they were just trying to sell their downpipe) and that you could get more power from stage 5 from extra boost (the second comment alone proves my point about power only being increased with more boost). In your second quote you say that stage 3 is 11.5 psi (which is just under fc for the cars with lowest fc). Which of theses "stage 3" are we going to be using for the modlist for newbs and discussing currently?

My theory is that you are correct for estimating bhp at 285 with 11.5psi controlled via ebc.

BUT.... FROM YOUR LAST EDITED MOD LIST THAT I AM REFERRING TO...:
_____________________
[quote] BY ma71: Stage IV 300HP: We pick up on the exhaust system where we left off previously to further reduce exhaust back pressure and to help that turbo spool up (reaching maximum rpm quicker). We do this by eliminating both catalytic converters from the exhaust system. Yes, this officially makes the car an off-road vehicle, but it is good for the final 20HP in the equation, so the choice is yours.

I juust don't see this 20bhp gain happening if the wastegate/bost pressure is regulated with an ebc. Bost should still stay at 11.5psi and uin most conditions you won't be able to boost over that if it boost were raising without raising fuel cut, otherwise you would hit fc. You said "3-5psi more before fuel cut, so stage 4's boost controller does increase the power before hitting fuel cut". By stating this, you acknowledge that power is increased by RAISING BOOST with BOOST CONTROL. My theory is that since the boost is regulated at 11.5 psi with an ebc and fc for stage 3 at 285bhp, then removing the catalytic converters is going to do nothing to increas boost/power ... but it will widen you power band. Removing cats will definitely allow for a little quicker boost/spool (power) and allow for less back pressure to hinder boost/spool (power) toward redline thus widening you power-band. BUT ... with the regulations of ebc and fc, I don't think that the boost would raise and therefore power numbers would not raise. I believe that only if boost is raised can power be raised. At stage three boost is limited by fc and ebc and I don't think that eliminating cats is going to raise boost .... so unless you raise boost and raise fc I don't think that you would raise power to 300bhp or by 15-20bhp with only cat removal for stage 4 .. but I think that you could widen the power band.

I repeated myself a couple of times so my theory should be clear. I am not positive that it is 100% correct but I think that it uis worth discussing.

[ma71supraturbo]

AWIDESUPIE -- that is suprastore's list -- I edited only to take away the blatant advertising, but I'm not going to change their claims (nor will I change the HKS chart). It's just another source, but it shouldn't be confused with my list on page 1


they basically go intake, then cat back, then boost controller, and then downpipe and test pipe. And yes, the power would go up if you had a boost controller and then installed a cat-back

[AWIDESUPIE]

Originally posted by ma71supraturbo
It probably will be soon, but I'm still revising it. Jeff M brought up a good idea, and that is to have 3 different lists -- a home-depot list, a average-joe list, and a bling bling list

Well my list was basically the "cheap" list. It include home depot/cheap stuff ... except for a few things that can't really be avoided ... unless you want to use PVC pipe for exhaust too :D ;) :p .

I plan on adding some info to the BOV write-up part .. if it still fits into one post. I was just going to add some info about the various Bosch bypass valves and their PNs and prices and places to buy them. I have the info but I am too tired to put it in right now. I will do it though ... just be patient.

How much more time do you want to give this thread Jeff? I told you on SM that my "full bpu" write-up is all on one post and you never responded. LOOK AT IT. It is the first post of mine in this thread .. one post .. full write-up ... minus the info that I want to add about various Bosch bypass valves.

The SECOND POST OF MINE is FAQ in regards to my mod list.

THIRD post is a brief explanantion of upgraded ct26 with supporting mods list ... with some links to soem great information about it and it touches on info past bpu and upgraded ct. In the last paragraph of this post, I also make a good comment about the basics to improving performance on a car with forced induction in general ... more air flow with supporting fuel and cooling ... poeriod. Just to help the newb understand better.

The NEXT POSTS with Grankor's comments and OUR responses to them could be used for more FAQ ... and the dyno could be used for baseline. Organize those however you want ... all I ask is that you give credit where it's due. I don't want to spend all tihs time on it for nothing. Hopefully , this info can get posted and then I will feel better about ignoring some questionS that are asked 10k billion times and just link to this info thread at most. If I don't respond, atleast people can't say that I never helped any newbs if this info gets organized/displayed/stickied etc and my info is credited to me. I really did put a lot of time into some of those posts .. especially the bpu write-up. Frankly, I amsot sick and tired of it and I want to see it put to good use ... but I will try to spruce it up a little by attempting to add the Bypass valve info ... hwen I am more awake.

I am starting to ramble ... I am sore ... I need sleep ... busy day tomorrow, most likely. I hope you understand. Thanks. Best regards. BLAH. G'Night.

[bdekoning]

wtf? i made about 308 rwhp at 12.5 psi on a stock ct26 with full exhaust, 550s, lexus afm, 3 row FMIC and 2.5" mandrel bent hard pipes. no fuel tuning devices used whatsover. thats about 36x BHP assuming an 18% drivetrain loss, at only 12.5 psi. 17 psi is about where the turbo wouldnt make any more power on my setup.

[djmesican]

damn good faqs...i thought i knew a little about my car..now i think i know nothing..but after i read this i think i know where to go...thxs for this post...a sticky would help and some more smart people to:D well..those numbers at the top are from the parts of the pics? so there could or is be other better performance parts to improve ur car right?


- Omar

[AWIDESUPIE]

This was going to be a stick in the FAQ section and it will be sometime. I think Jeff and I just got tied up doing some tother things. I have mean to bring closing to some really informative threads that I participated in and or started here at SF and on SM ... but I havent' made time. Really tired tonight. Busy for most of tomorrow. Maybe Sunday will try to finish.

[kylestremme]

ya us noobies will get all confused.... good idea with the putting it all down on a web site.

:bigthumb:

[rdubsk8er87]

hi i am new here and i want to know if the mk3 supra turbo is a high maintinence car, does it have a lot of problems? also can u tell me the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times for a stock mk3 supra turbo? thanks

[AWIDESUPIE]

www.car-stats.com for approximate stock time for almost any make and model.

High maintenance always depends on how the motor and drivetrain etc etc have been taken care of to x point.

Motors and related parts etc and humans all rewquire maintenance ... so it is hard to define reliable.

You can fairly consistantly maintain ... and therefore have your car run well most or all of the time it isnt being maintained (belts / fluid / standard repairs b/c yes things break in any motor) or you can let the motor and components show their full potential for being robust ... and run the piss out of it without taking meticulous care and have to tear down the whole engine to get things running right again once things go wrong.

Same with people. Ppl need food/drink/sleep/baths/showers/brush teeth/exercise (mental and physical to stay healthy and running strong ... otherwise ... yeah ... time may go by and they dont ave to do these things .... but they will die or become very sick and have to see a doctor for serious consultation and may have to have surgery or extensive medicine etc etc to even try to recover ... if possible.

HTH. Best regards.

[MADSUPRA88]

hey man this is nice, i just bought my supra like 4 days ago and this is really gonna help me out, thanks alot, that was a great job you did.thnx again

[Panty Raider]

Wow, thats a really good guide!!

I only have one question though, will that guide of mods only work on the 7M-GTE engine? or will it work on the 1JZ-GTE and the 1G-GTE?

Im sorry if its a really newb question, i used to pay more attention to the MKIV's but i realized i really wanted an MKIII so im just startin to learn more about them. If someone could fill me in on everything ive asked please do. And if i have miss-said something about the engine types please correct me with the actual types and what years of the MKIII come with those engines.

Thankyou

John

[myMUSICveins]

I only have one question though, will that guide of mods only work on the 7M-GTE engine? or will it work on the 1JZ-GTE and the 1G-GTE?
Every engine will respond to mods differently. You should without a doubt follow a similar path with the mentioned engines, but certainly don't expect similar gains or the car to respond in the same way it would with the 7MGTE.

Even doing these mods from one 7MGTE to another is going to show slightly different numbers, so expect huge variances with different engines entirely.

For ex: assuming 1 psi gain (while still efficient) nets ~ 11 crank HP only applies to the stock ct-26.

[simann]

i searched a while for this all over the net, and here it was on this forum all along:rolleyes:

[solomaster2002]

good thread

[dv6cougar]

that is by far the coolest newbies guide I've ever seen, perfect!!


Originally posted by simann
i searched a while for this all over the net, and here it was on this forum all along:rolleyes:

haha, yeah, me too.... i searched the forums as well.

[CornerDoctor]

Is there anything simple I can do (other than a bov) to help my ct26 spool significantly quicker?

[NeverNZ]

Originally posted by CornerDoctor
Is there anything simple I can do (other than a bov) to help my ct26 spool significantly quicker?

BOV isnt gonna help much, if at all with spool


get a good open air filter, then get a full exhaust, should help a lot

[superblur]

bump...

I hate searching for shit...

[suprarossa]

Thanks, Mike for the step-by-step guide. I agree that this should be archived somewhere for reference outside the forum. I'm rebuilding my '92 right now and even before finding this thread, (luckily) followed your steps verbatim up through Stage IV. Different brand names, same result.

With the engine out, however, I'm going the additional step of replacing the clutch and getting a lightweight flywheel. Perhaps a little gain there.

I'm an old Supra owner (10 years), but new to this forum. Keep up the good tips!

[1987supraturbo]

hey guys i just installed new 550cc injectors and a walbro 255 fuel pump on my 87 supra turbo. it is running a little rich and i want more horsepower out of it but i only have $300 any suggestions. should i just put a lexus v8 afm on it and then i need something inexpensive for air to fuel ratio.thanks alot. im new to this dont know much so anything would be appriciated

[AWIDESUPIE]

You need to not be too agressive for power with disregard for safety and the expense that it can include. You should always regard safety/relibility as most important. If you have any issues, any doubt .... you need to adress them.

What turbo are you using at what psi? What is the known condition of that turbo? What is the condition of your vehicle and it's components in full including engine and chassis and everything? You need to give as much detail as possibly relevant ... especially since you seem very new to this.

However, if you are careful you may meet your current goals if you can purchase a Lex afm which will add 25% air for the 25% fuel ... and safc to tune a.f maps.... adjustable fuel pressure regulator would be good too. This may make you and your car "very happy".

You don't need to PM me. You have an entire forum of knowledgeable people. Post in the relevant mk3 tech and or general forums if you want a bit more exposure than FAQ .. as FAQ is more of a read only section than an active post section. Many people already know what is in FAQ and they don't spend a lot time looking at "old" stuff and they may not realise when people are posting questions in the threads in the FAQ section.

HTH. I'll post your post and my reply in the general forum .. and link to it in a bit.

Whoa, big spelling errors. Forum glitches and personal fatigue are a bit of an issue. I hope I corrected everything now. Apologies for the errors.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=257767

Peace.

[1987supraturbo]

its a 1987 toyota supra with a new engine with 33000 miles just dropped in 3000 miles age. when the motor was dropped in the turbo was rebuilt. the car is in mint condoition no rust doesnt sputter runs great. its the ct-26 turbo. i have the 550cc injectors and walbro 255 fuel pump. i am thinking of buying a f-con with gcc and fuel cut defencer. is that a good idea?????i am running 6psi right now but have jusr recently installed a vbc

[SupraTrey]

Originally posted by AWIDESUPIE
Thanks Trey! Kind words, especially from you, are so "touching" :D ;) :p . \


Im a nice guy! Really I am! I just have a few choice words for a few people in here that I dont get along with :) We have had our battles but when it all comes down to it where are all here for one thing...... supras.... or in my case.... Supras with Boost.


T

[iamking]

quick question, after each stage u said at "9psi", etc. Is this assuming that u get a boost controller? or is it the WG shim mod? Or is it implying that each mod raises the psi?

[AGlobalThreat]

Each mod raises the psi. That's why the first 2 are lower.

[iamking]

so u dont even have to do the WG shim and get 15psi?

[AGlobalThreat]

No lol, that's just a cheap way to raise the boost.

[iamking]

so youre saying EACH mod raises the psi? thats crazy. i thought the only way to raise the boost is with a MBC/EBC

[iamking]

btw, is thius all on regular octane or premium or race gas>?

[AGlobalThreat]

Turbo's should always be run on 91 octane or higher. Most will ping on cheap gas.

[AlexSmith]

So when is it necessary to use tuning electronics? I plan to just have an intake, dp, and exhaust, so would I need a tuning application at that point?

[AlexSmith]

Bump. Anyone?

[Caplax40]

Ask this in the general MKIII area.

[supraman07]

iv'e seen this same thread in supramania

[AlexSmith]

iv'e seen this same thread in supramania

Not surprised.

[SupraTrey]

Thanks Trey! Kind words, especially from you, are so "touching" :D ;) :p .

Oh comon... "blushing" I can be a nice guy too....... :) :hay:

[a70_derek1]

thanks!
im going to stay in the 300's

[MKIIINoob91]

Noob here...

Price/Is this cheaper than a 1jz swap?
Does it produce more than the 1jz?

[MmSadda]

Thank you to the OP for one of the most clear, concise, and generally informative posts I've ever read on any board. I'm looking at a MkIII with a 7m-GTE, and this really told me EXACTLY what I need to know.

[MmSadda]

Out of curiosity, are all these mods in the original post recommended for a car with stock internals, no unmentioned head work? That sounds a little crazy to me, but I've heard at least MkIVs can withstand great power on stock internals.

[spdu4ea]

Noob here...

Price/Is this cheaper than a 1jz swap?
Does it produce more than the 1jz?

If you already have a 7mgte, it generally will be slightly cheaper than a 1jz swap. The 7m's headgasket will need to be addressed early on -- which is expensive to do properly (possibly as much as the 1jz front clip). But once that and other maintenance has been addressed, any money spent can go into making the car faster.

As for which will make more power, the 7m guys are currently in the lead of the 1jz guys with dynos. If you factor in the 1jz's ability to run a 2jz bottom end (1.5jz) then it probably has the edge. But for under 500rwhp, I'd say it is slightly easier to make that power with the 7m, although it is close.


Out of curiosity, are all these mods in the original post recommended for a car with stock internals, no unmentioned head work? That sounds a little crazy to me, but I've heard at least MkIVs can withstand great power on stock internals.

Headwork won't make a substantial impact until after 500-600rwhp. Most owners stay in the 300-500rwhp range so unless you have plans to get really crazy, you don't need to spend the money on port/polish, oversized valves, valve springs, and cams. Those items may help, but from the $/hp standpoint, they don't make as much sense until over 500-600hp

[MmSadda]

I'm not concerned with HP/$, so much as reliability.

[spdu4ea]

If you're staying below 6500rpm, there really won't be a difference in reliability. With bigger ports/valves/cams you will lose a little power from 1500-3000rpm (where you typically drive) but gain power from 4000-6500.

If you plan on revving over 6500, upgraded valve springs are a must, and headwork becomes much more valuable. But you'll also want a carefully built and balanced bottom end and excellent engine management so it has a significant price jump...

[lorenzobaynes]

This should be easy . Good tips.

[Mastapip]

newb question

I was looking at the original post, and wondering something...

When you do something like upgrade the air intake and exhaust, will the car start boosting at the higher psi naturally, or will you have to adjust the waste gate so that it can boost >6 psi?

[supra_guy]

That website that shows you how to install the intake and stuff no longer works, any other websites?

[Mastapip]

That website that shows you how to install the intake and stuff no longer works, any other websites?

The K&N filter (1,000,000 mile one) that's mk3 specific I believe has instructions on how to install it. It's fairly simple from what I hear. Basically you just unbolt the airbox, and the filter has a housing that attaches to the intake tube. The airbox is already located far away from the block itself, so there is no need for extra tubing.

[supraamkiii]

Thanks for posting this is really use full im thinking to buy a supra mk3 targa top just dont want to puy a 1jz or a 2jz. i want the 7m-gte in there and get around 400-500 horse is that possible? to do with around 1000-2000 dollars to spend on it?

[supralvr88]

Thanks for posting this is really use full im thinking to buy a supra mk3 targa top just dont want to puy a 1jz or a 2jz. i want the 7m-gte in there and get around 400-500 horse is that possible? to do with around 1000-2000 dollars to spend on it?

i wouldn't count on 1-2K for 400-500hp. It will take fairly more than that. Make sure your Supra is up to par and running right before modifying. If you want the power reliably, you will have to spend a little more than that.

[supraamkiii]

i wouldn't count on 1-2K for 400-500hp. It will take fairly more than that. Make sure your Supra is up to par and running right before modifying. If you want the power reliably, you will have to spend a little more than that.

ok like im lookin to into supra's so im looking to keepp it stock looking like a sleeper and get alot of power out of it dont have the cash to put a 1jz or 2jz in it how much do 1jz go for cad?? anyone know thanks i find it better because then ill just get a non turbo mkiii and change every thing the rear dif and throw a 1jz in with the tranny if i get it to fit change every thing befor i get it on the road

[mk3james]

so i dont kow if anyone has already asked but i am too tired to read through every post. what downpipe is that in the picture from teh original post? i really like the seperate tube for the wastegate.

[spdu4ea]

ok like im lookin to into supra's so im looking to keepp it stock looking like a sleeper and get alot of power out of it dont have the cash to put a 1jz or 2jz in it how much do 1jz go for cad?? anyone know thanks i find it better because then ill just get a non turbo mkiii and change every thing the rear dif and throw a 1jz in with the tranny if i get it to fit change every thing befor i get it on the road

Since you're in Canada, I would consider buying a MK3 and then swapping a 1JZ in -- I'd just buy an imported 1jz supra from one of the importers. The car will in all honestly be much cleaner than 99% of the used mk3s and probably cost about the same as buying a NA and swapping a 1jz in...


so i dont kow if anyone has already asked but i am too tired to read through every post. what downpipe is that in the picture from teh original post? i really like the seperate tube for the wastegate.

I'd bet it was a DDP from member becauseican (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/member.php?u=7790). You can find those on his website: http://www.bicperformance.com/products.htm

[mk3james]

thats the one. thanks for the link to that site.

[avcc11]

thanks i have ben looking for this page for days i plan to follow these steps i have a 91 7mgte and was kinda lost for the initial upgrades so i will let u know how it goes thanks

[toyzforme]

I did all these upgrades and dyno'd 300 to the wheels. So some of the crank numbers are a bit off.

[Moy]

It's not off. It's based on a healthy engine (good condition rings, pistons, etc)

[destrux]

Just thought I'd clear up something that I've seen asked/mentioned several times in this thread but I never saw anyone answer.

The reason for the increase in boost pressure when you modify anything in the intake path between the compressor and intake manifold is because the boost gauge is reading the boost pressure from the intake manifold (which is the correct place to read your boost pressure). The wastegate actuator or boost controller, however, reads boost pressure at the turbo compressor outlet. Since most mods reduce the pressure drop from the compressor outlet to the intake manifold, the manifold pressure increases as the pressure drop decreases. The wastegate has no idea this is going on, it only cares what the pressure is in the compressor outlet, so it doesn't correct for it. I never tried sourcing the wastegate from the intake manifold to see if it corrects the pressure rise because I've heard this can cause boost spiking from signal lag and other problems.

I know that is at least partially the reason for the boost pressure going up seemingly by itself, but there may be other reasons too that I'm not aware of.

One question I had was that options are there other than full standalone once you hit the limit of fuel cut and already have the lexus AFM/oversized injectors?

On my DSM I got a chip burned for the ECU that eliminated the fuel cut entirely, this thread is a few years old, so is there anything like that available now?