Best bang for the buck first NA mods?

[Gonzo the Great]

Disclaimer: I had a 86 Celica for 15 years so I'm not new to Toyota but this is my first Supra, so if I say anything stupid don't kill me right away.

To get an idea where I'm going with this is on Subaru's you can buy a $85 bigger rear sway bar and dramaticlly change the handling because the stock one is so small. That's what direction I'm aiming at with the thread.

I'm picking up a 87 NA Supra with 120,000 miles on it. Once all the mechanical incidentals are taken car of I would like to do some minor mods to it. I have a Subaru that is my main car and gets the bulk of my mod fundage. I wanted the Supra for a second car because I have always liked them and it's a deal I can't pass up. The Supra will be daily driven, "spirited" driving on twisty valley roads, and auto-x and track days when the Subaru is on the lift. I might drag it just to see what it does. I don't have particlular goals I am trying to hit like 1G on the skid pad or 300hp at the wheels I just want to improve the car to make it more fun to drive. I am into a balance of both handling and power. I have already seen that most people immediatly point toward intakes and exhaust on the power side so I am reasearching those so we don't have to discuss them. Another thing is I have heard the MKIII is a bit on the heavy side so will have to shell out a lot of money to get the car to be a capable handler?

So in short what are the weak points I should address to make my MKIII a well balanced, fun to drive daily driver.

[KermitTheFrayer]

Intake, exhaust, down pipe, MBC, ghetto waste gate shimmy.

And welcome, I'm pretty new myself how long have you been gonzo?

I have been Kermit since I was 12.

[Bishop92T]

You'll be hard pressed to get 300hp out of the N/A motor. It would be much easier to transplant the turbo motor in and do just a few minor mods. To get an idea of how many mods you would have to do to an N/A click here (http://www.ma70.com/bishop/namod.html)

For handling you'll want front and rear sway bars, they both need replacing to make the car stable. Springs and struts would be next, there's a lot of choices and they're all personal preference. I like linear springs so I've tried Tokico springs and ST springs, both handled nice. The Tokico HP struts were cheap, non-TEMS, and handled bumps pretty well. I wouldn't say you'll have to shell out a ton of money, just don't expect it to handle like a graceful light car. The suspension design is top notch, it's just a damn heavy car. Being competitive with it will be hard and require a lot of skill, but just for fun driving it's a blast to drive.

[ma70man]

Originally posted by KermitTheFrayer
Intake, exhaust, down pipe, MBC, ghetto waste gate shimmy.

And welcome, I'm pretty new myself how long have you been gonzo?

I have been Kermit since I was 12.

He is N/A. First, I would get everything mechanically sound, then do intake, exhaust, and some suspension work.

[ARTSUPRA]

Filter and a bigger exhaust, free flowing cat and a muffler is about all you can do for cheap on NA

[chevyeater-on-sf]

They handle good in stock form, not nimble like say, a WRX, but stable and stuck to the road like a good GT car should be. No need to change the rear sway bar so that you can steer with the gas pedal, the balance is pretty good stock.

Springs, shocks and sway bars are all good upgrades to make it handle really well and be a bit more nimble at some ride quality expense. Stripping off some unnessicary junk to make the car lighter is also a good idea. The front seats, for example, can serve double duty as ship anchors.

[Gonzo the Great]

Originally posted by KermitTheFrayer
Intake, exhaust, down pipe, MBC, ghetto waste gate shimmy.

And welcome, I'm pretty new myself how long have you been gonzo?

I have been Kermit since I was 12.

It's NA so no turbo toys. I'm just wondering if there are any ECU tricks or if cams make a world of a difference, things like that.

I have been Gonzo since I was 5. I just got the 15 dvd set it's cool to watch all the old shows again.

Bishop- my goal isn't 300hp I was just saying I don't have any particular goals like 300hp. I'm just looking to improve any weaknesses the 7M has like if it has very mild cams, poor flowing heads, restrictive intake or exhaust, so on and so forth.

Yeah i didn't know how well balanced and designed the stock suspension so i didn't know how far i would have to go to get it tuned better.

Also it has the sport/comfort suspension option on it. It just looks like motors on top of the strut towers to adjust dampening. Any comments on improving that or will it be tossed if the struts are upgraded?

[chevyeater-on-sf]

Only shock choice that retains the "T.E.M.S." is Tokico Illumina II. I'm happy having ditched mine,

The engine is pretty well designed and it is tough to squeeze more than a few extra ponies out of the N/A.

[MKIIINA]

there are guys that go all out (rebore the block, bigger pistons, etc etc) on NA and can make some respectable numbers so im not really sure why everyone immediatly says NA is weak go Turbo etc etc. I'll admit there aren't many cheap hop ups for the NA motor but you can create a pretty nice motor out of the 7M-GE... for cheap.... turbo might be the best bet.

[chevyeater-on-sf]

im not really sure why everyone immediatly says NA is weak go Turbo etc etc.

Nobody said anything like that. :wtf:

[Gonzo the Great]

I figured the TEMS systems was more of a perk than a true performance option. I have the EDFC on my Teins on my Subaru and it's more of a convienence on the steet but on track days it's awesome be able to adjust dampening on the fly.

I think engine wise I will just look for better throttle response and smooth power band so if an intake and free flowing exhaust will give me that then that question is answered.

Oh the WRX's are not that nimble. ;) They have a big understeer issue in stock form but it's easiy remedied. I drive an older 2000 RS but it has a JDM Ver Sti in it so it surprises a lot of people.

Thanks for all the help so far, this board is great.

[witeenigma]

the best bang for buck will be the MHG before the BHG happens

[chevyeater-on-sf]

Oh the WRX's are not that nimble.

Compared to my Supra, my WRX is a slotcar. :D I think you'll understand when you get your Supra. It isn't an understeer / oversteer thing, it is just that the Supra is a big heavy car compared to a Subaru.

[Gonzo the Great]

Yeah I was noticing that BHG was an issue also. Any recommendations on which MHG to get? I have only seen HKS's so far, any others?

And how much of a pita is it to do if I have the service manuals? I did all the mechanical on my engine swap on my Subaru so I can handle my own with a wrench.

[witeenigma]

i would think lapping would be the hardest thing to do, or at least most time consuming. not that i've done it myself as i'm not mechanically inclined.

however much you lap, do some math and figure out the best fitting MHG to give you stock, or since you're NA, even a little higher compression. most people here who do MHG before the BHG usually stick to 1.2 HKS or 1.5 greddy. i got a 2.0

[Supra Junky 101]

Welcome bro. Your 2.5 looks sick :)

First mod on my list would be MHG, Intake, Test pipe if allowed in your state and Full catback.

Then you can go on from there

[Bishop92T]

The best bang for your buck with an N/A are intake, cat-back, header, increasing the timing and running 91-93 octane, electric fan, aluminum flywheel, aluminum driveshaft and lightweight wheels. Fooling with the ECU might net you a little power but would require a considerable effort on your part since nobody that I know of makes a chip. Working with the head and cams is pretty minimal gains unless you go all out with $. It's best to stop after a few bolt-ons, b/c after that point you could have gone turbo and been so much faster. Especially if you like handling curvy roads the amount of power an N/A can produce with a few bolt-ons is plenty to have fun. Best to concentrate money on suspension.

Compared to EDFC, the TEMS is complete garbage. Yes you can feel a difference but it's not hugely drastic. I've got Tein Flex on my Supra and full firm to full soft is a HUGE difference.

Unless you increase the compression in your N/A you will be perfectly fine with a new OEM HG ($50) with ARP head bolts ($90). No need to spend all the money and time on MHG.

[Gonzo the Great]

MHG - If there is no warpage couldn't I just go with a 1.0mm gasket and not have to do any lapping? Plus I have bad experiences with multi layer gaskets, I think the more layers the more suspect they become.

Intake - Do the AFM's play well with oiled filters or should I go with somthing like the Blitz SUS?

Supra Junky 101 - thanks for the compliment. Where you at in NH. I have a brother in West Leb and get up there quite a bit. The Subaru loves the logging trails up there.

Bishop - electric fan? I am going to assume you mean the radiator fans. Are the stock ones controlled by the ECU based on coolant temp or are they manual? I haven't had a lot of time to poke under the hood yet so educate me. :D I'm replacing the radiator, end tank cracked, so I'll have them out anyways.

Exhaust - I'd like to have something dual tip and looks just a tad more aggressive than stock with a deep sound. It has a pace setter cat-back now it sounds like shat. Any recommendations there.

So where are th best places to find the mods I'm looking for? I've been on MVP's site, where else can I go?

[cnewingham]

I have an 88 n.a. and picked up my intake at 935motorsports for about 80.00. I bought an hks adapter cause I've had the cheap 6.00 ebay specials and they suck! I also did a cold air setup at the same time. Pick up a F. Strut Bar too seen as how they are cheap and yes it does make a difference. Anyways here is a link to my intake set up: http://photos.yahoo.com/chase93toy

[JDMG]

MHG: If you're goinbg to replace the HG, then do it right, or don't bother. Just slapping in a MHG is a sure way to get a blown head gasket, no matter what else you do.

Yes, a 1.0mm gasket will help performance by bumping up compression a bit. Everything helps. There aren't any "simple" ecu tricks to use, although loosening up the AFM flapper door has been reported to free up a bit of power. My fear with that is always that it will also lean out the mixture. Detonation is NOT your friend.

For handling: Tokico struts seem to be a good first step. There are other kinds available, as well. There are a number of on-line retailers who specialize in the Supra, our hosts here being one of them. Swaybars are either Whiteline or Suspension Techniques. The ST seem to be a bit cheaper on average, and many people also seem to like them better.

As far as power goes, the NA is still fun to drive, but it's just too heavy to really accellerate. If you get the shifting just right, you can get some decent pickup out of it, still. Fortunately, swapping in a turbo engine isn't difficult. -- You can also put the factory turbo onto the NA block, but be warned, that's far from the only difference between the two. It's a completely different electronics setup, and there are internal differences, too. (For starters, the compression ratio is much higher on the NA than the turbo) -- That's not to say that it can't be done, it can and has. In that case the higher compression ratio limits max boost, but in the range of boost that it'll accept, it makes more power than the turbo motor at the same boost pressure. (Mine is just too high mileage for me to want to do this.)

Best of luck!

[Thermactor]

Originally posted by JDMG
loosening up the AFM flapper door has been reported to free up a bit of power. My fear with that is always that it will also lean out the mixture. Detonation is NOT your friend. no, it actually richens up the mixture. letting unmetered air in is what would lean the mixture out.

[grankor]

Well, there are two big schools of thought when it comes to Getting bigger numbers. Technology and power. (usually import and domestic)

While the supra has a good engine, to best utilize it, you would need to install a turbo.

You can okay numbers out of an NA, and make it fun to drive...but the numbers wont really be as impressive as a turbo.

Just my .02

[Bishop92T]

You either need to mill the head and block perfectly flat and smooth to put a MHG in or use the OE HG. Any imperfections with a MHG will result in leakage. For an N/A the OE HG is just fine. There are people running 16-20psi daily on their turbo with a stock HG, that's way more compression then your N/A will ever see.

Loosening the AFM flapper door causes the car to run rich. Loose means the flapper opens further which means the ECU thinks more air is coming in so the mixture is richened. The mod is worthless unless you have some method to lean the mixture back out. The N/A runs too rich as it is.

Yes, replace the stock clutch fan with an electric fan. That frees up a good bit of torque and the motor can rev up quicker. The 1-3 electric fans controlled by the ECU are temp controlled and AC controlled.

[suprafly1986]

Hey I just wanted to say that my friend and I are working on a 300+hp and 300+ ft-lb All motor Supra (don't laugh). We plan to do the full complete custom engine job (block and head), along with a stage 2 clutch+flywheel, crank pulley, 410 diff, MSD ignition and wires, already did intake and exhaust. Probably will increase timing a bit and may get a cold air chip. Sorry, I know this is expensive and pointless but i like the throttle feel of an all motor car better. I'm gonna let you know what goes down

[Thermactor]

Originally posted by suprafly1986
Hey I just wanted to say that my friend and I are working on a 300+hp and 300+ ft-lb All motor Supra (don't laugh). We plan to do the full complete custom engine job (block and head), along with a stage 2 clutch+flywheel, crank pulley, 410 diff, MSD ignition and wires, already did intake and exhaust. Probably will increase timing a bit and may get a cold air chip. Sorry, I know this is expensive and pointless but i like the throttle feel of an all motor car better. I'm gonna let you know what goes down sounds like you guys dont know what you are doing

[ma70man]

Yep, where can I find one of these cold air chips?:dunno:

[a70]

this thread = :confused:

[Bugwugger]

Originally posted by suprafly1986
Hey I just wanted to say that my friend and I are working on a 300+hp and 300+ ft-lb All motor Supra (don't laugh). We plan to do the full complete custom engine job (block and head), along with a stage 2 clutch+flywheel, crank pulley, 410 diff, MSD ignition and wires, already did intake and exhaust. Probably will increase timing a bit and may get a cold air chip. Sorry, I know this is expensive and pointless but i like the throttle feel of an all motor car better. I'm gonna let you know what goes down

HAHA an older thread, sounds like my car.

[yotatoysupra89]

Ok i know every MKIII owner wants to drop in a 1j or a 2j but i got some different plans tell me what you think and who the best dealers would be to get these parts:

Toyota short block 7M-GE
APR metel head gasget with stainless steel bolts all they way across the motor not just the head
forged aluminum rods pistons and bearings
titanium camshafts with adjustable cam gears
550cc injectors or maybe 660cc
larger feul rail
high pressure lines and feul pump
new aluminum head shaved about 1-1.5mm brand new bearings
variable rate valve spings
dc headers(yes its gonna be NA)
2.75" exhaust to a Apexi N1(got the N1 on it now)
apexi intake with NOS cooling lines not spray
under drive pullies no AC or PS or FC
DSM electric fans

and thats pretty much what ive got so far. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks

[yotatoysupra89]

I almost forgot, im gonna get a lightweight flywheel and 6 puck clutch with high pressure plate as well what would be some good specs and where abouts would these mods put me?
Some feedback would greatly be appreciated........Let me know if i missed something.