Official 2J Mani Conversion Q and A's...

[Kruso]

Sup guys, havent posted in this section in a little while. Since I've done my 2J manifold conversion on my 7M alot of people have asked me countless questions as far as how to go about doing the upgrade and how to overcome certain problems. I hope this thread gets made into a sticky because its a mod that should be recognized for what it is, alot of extra hps out of something fairly simple. Below is a picture of the 2J manifold installed on my MKIII, for those who dont know of what Im talking about...

http://users3.ev1.net/~hmillerjr/2jz_intake/2jzintake11.jpg

To first cut to the chase and give you guys a better idea asto what kind of power difference Im talking about...My car dynoed at 259.7hp and 279 ft tq on STOCK turbo and STOCK boost. My car was the " dirty 90+, that the PHR guy was making fun of" as someone put it. The mods that were done to the car at the time of the dyno were the following:

K & N Intake
3" Cat back, 3" down pipe along with a stock gutted cat
And last but not least.....MKIV Intake manifold custom welded to fit my 7M with an NPR intercooler

The fuel delivery system, AFM, Injectors, and the Engine internals were ALL BONE STOCK. The car doesnt have any sort of aftermarket electronics in it aswell, no AVCR, no SAFC, and FCD, the car does not even contain an aftermarket boost gauge to give you an idea of how stock this car is.

Anyways....this is the question i've gotten asked alot, I've responded to many with as much knowledge as I have regarding this upgrade but sometimes writing a two page email or a pm to someone only to find out that they're PM box was full and every thing you just wrote was a waste of time because hitting the back button erases everything just aggravates me. The question is "How did you over come the TPS issue?" and the answer is to say is pretty simple but to do is sort of complicated.

To those of you who dont know what that question is referring to, the MKIV TPS puts out the wrong resistance for our injectors and just slapping on the MKIII TPS is not feasible because the 7M throttle body opens in the opposite direction compared to the the MKIV throttle body, thus rendering both TPS's useless.

There are two ways you can go about overcomming that issue. The first is to REVERSE the actuall MKIV throttle butterfly and change the direction the flap opens to where it opens COUNTER clockwise, the same direction our stock 7M throttle body opens. Doing so will allow you to mount the stock 7M TPS onto the same location of the MKIV TPS. Doing this will get rid of your TPS issue but leaves you with another issue....reversing the butterfly creates a gash which is caused by the butterfly not being flush when the throttle is closed all the way. This can be over come by simply having excess aluminum welded in and shaved out to create a new border for the butterfly getting rid of the gash, or something a little more temporary like JB welding and molding the edges to work. Leaving the gash there will cause the car to idle at 6000 RPM.

The second way to go about doing this is what I will attempt next, its fairly simple and a much more cleaner install. You can get the MKIV TPS and change out the resisntance being output by the TPS itself to match the 7M resistance. These resistance will go on right before the harness is attatched to the TPS (so in a sense in the middle of the TPS and the harness jack). I've been told that these resistance can be had from a local radio shack but will let you guys know when I try and successfully finish that conversion.

Another problem that you guys will encounter is that the stock FPR gets in the way of the MKIV TB, in which case you will need to either go with aftermarket FPR or go to home depo and purchase a few copper conjunctions and lines totalling no more then twenty bucks to just simply move the FPR about six inches to the right where it clears the TB.

Hope this answers any questions you guys might have had and removed any doubts about the power with the actuall figures and definitely hope to see more 2J converted 7M's running around, as of right now there's only a hand full of peopl with these.

Kruso

[boostmastersdotcom]

damn. Nice writeup.

Some good things too know, I've seen a couple custom mani's 2jz style, looks pretty effiencent, now i'll get 2000 bucks and get a veilside, not.

[Enraged]

lookin sharp!

im currently collecting parts/funds to build a custom 2jz style intake, ill make a thread about the buildup once its done.

[steve_mk3]

I heard that the 2JZ manifold does not bolt up to the 7m?
If that is correct how did you overcome that problem?

Also you had your car on the dyno, but it seems in your writeup your trying to figure out how to configure the TPS, how did you have it setup to do the dyno.

Thanks, I think this is a great idea, cleans up the engine bay, just makes a lot of sense.

I will be watching this thread, my engine comes out soon and I would so love to be able to do this!!!

Thanks
Steve

edit- I am 2JZ ignorant, would you just need the manifold and throttle body? what part do you need?

[conundrum07]

Can you post more info about the alternator relocation? Did you use a modified stock bracket or a completely custom one? Also, did you have to remove the AC Compressor, or can you keep it? I’m asking because I’m interested in doing this but do not want to lose the AC system.

TIA

[Kruso]

Above I mentioned two ways of overcomming the TPS issue, I used the first one. My car was idling and performing very nicely on the dyno.

You will need the 2J complete mani with the TB, and it is NOT a bolt on mod, you'd have to get both the 2J and the 7M manifolds lower runners cut in half and have the two opposite pieces welded togather.


No, you do not lose the AC system, the whole bracket thing scares people, all I did was take two pieces of metal plates and cut them at an angle with two holes on each side. Essentially extends down the swivel hole for the alternator, the same adjustment nut and the assembly was used, just pushed down a little bit.

Kruso

[BrysonK]

Got any spare MKIV TB's around? :D
Anyonee?

[BrysonK]

Or if you want to make me a 7M compatable 2JZ TB, i'd buy that off you too ;)

[Kruso]

Originally posted by BrysonK
Or if you want to make me a 7M compatable 2JZ TB, i'd buy that off you too ;)

You mean a 2JZ compatible 7M throttle body....

Kruso

[bdekoning]

is the 2jz tb bigger than the 7m? if so then by how much?

[BrysonK]

Hmm - whichever way it is, 2JZ TB w/ 7M TPS :)

[supraian]

will the first cylinder be getting more air than the last one?

[Jeff Lange]

Originally posted by supraian
will the first cylinder be getting more air than the last one?

I don't believe so, the whole manifold will be pressurized, and the air will flow into whichever cylinder is open, as far as I can tell.

(One of the cylinders will get more pressure to begin with, but the same thing will happen with the stock 7M manifold too, as boost builds)

[supraian]

i figured thats the reason why we had that weird stock intake, it doesn't make since why toyota did it that way.

[p5150]

im interested in the custom manufacture that ive seen people do. I think you could use the TB mounting plate off the stock manifold, cut the top off the stocker, use 4" pipe welded to the manifold and mount the stock TB on the front. Add vacuum fittings accordingly, but im not too sure on how to deal with the isc valve

[adam pecush]

i gave this idea some thought too, but our manifold was designed to be center-fed not fed from the side. there would be some wierd power robbing flow patterns inside the plenum if the current tb flange is cut off and attatched to the other side. for what its worth, i plan on creating a 2j-7m manifold connector template in my autocad class next year and hopefully just cnc machine it from billet al. thats a long way off though...

adam

[Enraged]

someone send me a 2JZ upper manifold, ill put it into CAD on my xmas holidays :)

[BrysonK]

What would you do with the CAD design?

[Kruso]

Originally posted by adam pecush
i gave this idea some thought too, but our manifold was designed to be center-fed not fed from the side. there would be some wierd power robbing flow patterns inside the plenum if the current tb flange is cut off and attatched to the other side. for what its worth, i plan on creating a 2j-7m manifold connector template in my autocad class next year and hopefully just cnc machine it from billet al. thats a long way off though...

adam

Boost is only created if there's a restriction of some sorts on one end. In this case the restriction the restriction is the air not being able to go inside the combustion chamber fast enuf because the valves, head size, compression etc... wont allow it to. Keeping that in mind, the pressure that IS created is distributed evenly between all six of the lower runners which lead to piston chamber. Keeping that in mind and also the fact that ANOTHER TOYOTA product uses the same manifold which was produced by the same engineers as an upgrade to the MKIV vs the MKIII, I would say that its a pretty safe bet that there's no harm in fabricating one to fit out supras. The 2J is definitely not the same engine as the 7M but the very basic layout of both engines are somewhat the same, both inline and six... same in a sense of what we'll be using the maifold for.

Kruso

[steve_mk3]

There are quiet a few issues with this mod that could be good or bad. By relocating the intake to the front and changing the intercooler you would shorten the distance from the turbo output to compression chamber input. I thing that would be good.
by not running the output of the intercooler past the hot turbo should also be good. removing the small intercooler pipes should also be good.

now for some of the bad-
the diameter of the turbo output should be constant throughout the system. if you go from a small diameter to large you will lose pressure.
If the manifold is not designed correctly you will create turbulance, also a bad thing.

I still like this upgrade, if you take all things into account while doing this. Replace the intercooler and use correct pipes going to/from the intercooler. have the lower manifold made correctly there should be some interesting potential here.

The fact that the succesor to the &mGTE was designed this way, and when you look at the turbo plumbing on our cars it looks like aqn after thought more than it was designed from the ground up.

This is just my gut feeling on this, I am not an engineer or anything.

Steve

[Enraged]

as for the CAD files, they could be given to a CNC shop to be made. i was going to do this, but have since decided to make my own custom manifold. i may be using the CNC for the TB flange and possible for the plenum flange.

[adam pecush]

Originally posted by Kruso
Boost is only created if there's a restriction of some sorts on one end. In this case the restriction the restriction is the air not being able to go inside the combustion chamber fast enuf because the valves, head size, compression etc... wont allow it to. Keeping that in mind, the pressure that IS created is distributed evenly between all six of the lower runners which lead to piston chamber. Keeping that in mind and also the fact that ANOTHER TOYOTA product uses the same manifold which was produced by the same engineers as an upgrade to the MKIV vs the MKIII, I would say that its a pretty safe bet that there's no harm in fabricating one to fit out supras. The 2J is definitely not the same engine as the 7M but the very basic layout of both engines are somewhat the same, both inline and six... same in a sense of what we'll be using the maifold for.

Kruso
heh i think you misunderstood me a little here...i was talking about plugging the current tb flange and welding a pipe onto the opposite side of the intake manifold...not simply using a jz mani..i think this IS a good idea if it can be ensured that each intake runner is of constant inside diameter and finish.

adam

[Kruso]

Originally posted by p5150
im interested in the custom manufacture that ive seen people do. I think you could use the TB mounting plate off the stock manifold, cut the top off the stocker, use 4" pipe welded to the manifold and mount the stock TB on the front. Add vacuum fittings accordingly, but im not too sure on how to deal with the isc valve

No one on this forums, or any other forums has ever converted their 7M turbo manifold into a front feed MKIV style manifold. I think you are mistaking the one that someone else on this board using the 1J mani welded to the 7M lower runners with an extension to the TB using a 6-8~ inch extension. I have yet to see a stock one converted, and it wouldnt be a good idea to convert one either. Sry Adam, I did misunderstand you, I thougt you were referring to the MKIV manifold.

Kruso

below are the pics of the bottom of the car to show you how efficiently the new IC pipes are routed.

http://users3.ev1.net/~hmillerjr/2jz_intake/2jzintake12.jpg
http://users3.ev1.net/~hmillerjr/2jz_intake/2jzintake13.jpg

[RacingTechnology]

Kruso, did you make the intercooler or is that a aftermarket piece.

[p5150]

Originally posted by adam pecush
i gave this idea some thought too, but our manifold was designed to be center-fed not fed from the side. there would be some wierd power robbing flow patterns inside the plenum if the current tb flange is cut off and attatched to the other side. for what its worth, i plan on creating a 2j-7m manifold connector template in my autocad class next year and hopefully just cnc machine it from billet al. thats a long way off though...

adam

I think you misunderstood me, or i didnt make myself clear. I think it would be quite simple to cut the top part of the manifold off so that the separate plenums were independent of each other. Cut a 4" aluminum pipe the appropriate length of the manifold, cut in in half lengthwise (to access the inner runners), cut six holes in the bottom half of the pipe a little bit larger than the ID of the plenums, weld it on the inside and outside, smooth it with a die grinder, and weld the top half of the manifold on to complete it.

Vacuum nipples would be easy to add.

[Kruso]

Originally posted by p5150
I think you misunderstood me, or i didnt make myself clear. I think it would be quite simple to cut the top part of the manifold off so that the separate plenums were independent of each other. Cut a 4" aluminum pipe the appropriate length of the manifold, cut in in half lengthwise (to access the inner runners), cut six holes in the bottom half of the pipe a little bit larger than the ID of the plenums, weld it on the inside and outside, smooth it with a die grinder, and weld the top half of the manifold on to complete it.

Vacuum nipples would be easy to add.

RacingTechnology.... that is an Isuzu NPR Truck Intercooler.

And p5150.....took me three times reading what you wrote to get what you were trying to say, but I got it in the end. There is another member on the baords who's done EXACTLY what you are talking about. Had some pics of it a while ago on here as well. He drives a VERY nice jet black supra which is doing some seriously nice numbers.

Kruso

[Enraged]

your talkin about Ron aka jt2ma71. he does amazing work....

[SupraOfDoom]

Very nice write up!

[87SilverSupraTurbo]

So say I get 2.5 inch intercooler lines with stock turbo, the inlet on my Spearco is 2.5 so I will be going from 2.25 from the stock CT outlet to 2.5 Spearco inlet. This is bad? I will lose pressure?

[outofstep]

How did you reverse the butterfly mechanism? I've got one sitting right here, along with a 7M TPS. I've got no clue how you swapped it? Did you like reverse the spring or what?

Can you please take some pictures of this? Thanks

[SupraOfDoom]

http://users3.ev1.net/~hmillerjr/2jz_intake/2jzintake12.jpg

:dunno: I have no clue where this IC pipe is running too , dumb question but where? Somewhere on the left side of the engine or the new intake mani?

[NWS25]

Connects to the turbo.

[SupraOfDoom]

Originally posted by NWS25
Connects to the turbo. :allcho: :doh:

I knew that... brain fart damnit.

[BrysonK]

All the MKIV guys want 150$ plus shipping for their throttlebodies.....

[Kruso]

The springs on the driver side fender side of the first throttle would need to be reversed. Sry I didnt take any pictures when I was doing that either. I'll take some pictures in a few days to show you what Im talking about.

Kruso

ps
Supra of doom....you better be driving a NA man!

[outofstep]

thanks man, anxiously awaiting the pics

[SupraOfDoom]

Originally posted by Kruso

ps
Supra of doom....you better be driving a NA man!

:( Hey Hey, I had no one mechanical ( I don't have a father to teach me either ) to teach me besides the net, and I've done everything on my car myself. Plus I know alot of misc things, but don't know some important things still... but I keep learning. So shhh.

btw this is my 1337 post.

[steve_mk3]

this seems to be a relivent thread-
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151556&highlight=7mgte+lower+2jzgte+upper

[BlackDevilSupra]

get the JDM 7M TB or source the half moon linkage from one. Remove the linkage, rotate 180deg's, and reinstall.

HTH.


Originally posted by outofstep
How did you reverse the butterfly mechanism? I've got one sitting right here, along with a 7M TPS. I've got no clue how you swapped it? Did you like reverse the spring or what?

Can you please take some pictures of this? Thanks

[BrysonK]

Whats different with the JDM 7M TB vs. the North American 7M TB?

[Kruso]

Originally posted by BrysonK
Whats different with the JDM 7M TB vs. the North American 7M TB?


There's no difference, i've had both of them and they're exactly alike.

Kruso

[Kruso]

pic of my 3kgt.... non related sry

[BlackDevilSupra]

Originally posted by BrysonK
Whats different with the JDM 7M TB vs. the North American 7M TB?

WRONG!!!

The US TB uses a ball socket linkage while the JDM uses a standard half moon pivot linkage and accepts a throttle cable with barrel end style connection.
To use the JDM TB you need to convert to a standard cable with the barrel connection.

HTH

[Kruso]

So....how's the TB different??? Only the attatchment is different which can be swapped out by one nut.

Kruso

[BrysonK]

Got a MKIV tb on order... i'll see how it goes..
bk

[knucklehead]

Here's how mine is looking right now.

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/10/web/466000-466999/466584_3_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/10/web/466000-466999/466584_4_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/10/web/466000-466999/466584_5_full.jpg

[Enraged]

nice!

Mig or Tig?

Very nice contouring inside, should flow much better than stock.

[Kruso]

Looks very nice, I take the comment about the 7M intake mani being used for this purpose, looks more efficient then I had imagined it.

Kruso

[knucklehead]

Thanks for the complement, It's Tig welded. I've been working on it for a while now and I'll be using the stock throttle body, with a linkage from a 22re truck. Here are some pics of how it started out.


Before alot of porting work.
http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/10/web/466000-466999/466584_6_full.jpg

Throttle body adapter plate.
http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/10/web/466000-466999/466584_7_full.jpg

SP-57 to power it all.
http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/10/web/466000-466999/466584_8_full.jpg

[josbeat]

Hey Knucklehead!!
good work!
you will have a lower flyer Tomcat!! sure with those two things!!!

One thing....with those large runners you will need a front short reducer pipe....I recomend the upper right in the picture if IT is 100 m.m. to 80 m..m.
I Have used the pipe below it but cutting it a little, and fom the front of your plenum .....don´t put anything more high or it will touch, AND if you put the short one maybe you can leave the alternator in the stock possition ( NOT SURE).
http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/1135.jpg

[Enraged]

where do you get those parts? do you know how much they are?

[p5150]

lets expand on the issue of the throttle body being reversed. I want to use the stock TB, but it will be difficult to make the throttle cable work with it. I know I still need to get an aftermarket cable, but if I could make it come around from the front I might be able to make it work. Any ideas?

[p5150]

and one other thing - what are the effects on the ecu and the engine idle with the isc valve removed? What needs to be done to keep the engine idling with it out? I know if you plug it while the car is stock that it wont idle worth a damn.

[outofstep]

You don't get rid of the ISC, it fits in the jz manifold.

[GreaseMonkey]

You would need to keep ur t/b open a crack to keep your engine idleing. and if it is open a crack the ECU will not be be in idle mode unless you modify the TPS. what im trying to say is keep the ISC valve... but you can hide it if you want.

[p5150]

thanks for the advice greasemonkey - I think that I am going to integrate it into my custom welded manifold, I can just use the fitting off of the top of the mani that I will cut off anyway. (same with the TB plate. jt2ma71 fabricated his intake manifold, but he has a standalone system, and im not sure how he set his idle. I would like to keep the toyota computer.... for now.

[Enraged]

you dont NEED the ISC apparantly. but if you remove it, your car wont idle below 1000 rpm, and if the car goes into closed loop (or was it open loop?) it will stall.

[BrysonK]

He's right, you don't need the ISC, many members with custom manifolds run without one (IE DrJonezzz) but since im using the MKIV manifold, theres a spot for it, so instead of blocking it off, i'm using it.

As for not having one, the ecu will go into a closed loop mode and idle above 1000rpm ~ IIRC. Under 1000 RPM the ISC makes tiny adjustments, but over 1000 RPM it is out of reach to make any further adjustments, hence the 1k rpm idle.

I think. ;)

[Enraged]

im considering dumpign the ISC and the cold start injector on mine. it would clean up the look, and id have more room under the hood.

[p5150]

well, I know that if the ISC is still plugged in and the tube is blocked, it will idle like shit. I havent experimented with it unplugged though. Im curious as to if it will throw any codes. I guess the 1000 rpm thing is acceptable, but im not willing to live with it. It shouldnt be too hard to integrate it into the bottom of the manifold so it is out of sight.

[Enraged]

my car idles at 1500 right now.... gotta fix it after exams.

[outofstep]

Any pics of the reversed throttle linkage/butterfly yet?

[Kruso]

The whole motor is apart right now....i'll try to take some tonight...

Kruso

[p5150]

agreed, im waiting on some pics too.

[p5150]

after several beers, meditation, and residual smell of carb cleaner, I think I have figured out the secret with the butterfly linkage. If you actuate the TB, and look at the direction that the ball travels, it is a relatively straight line. Also to consider, the dashpot is in the way of any cable that would connect and pull from the bottom of the TB, which is what we want.

The connection point on the TB for the throttle cable needs to be exactly 180 degrees from the original connector, and it needs to be the same distance from the pivot point of the butterfly as the ball that the stock throttle cable pushrod connects to. This will keep the action just as straight as the stock position. It just so happens that the dashpot (the part we have to remove anyway) has a bracket on it (with holes already drilled the appropriate distance) that will require minimal modification and a couple of rivets to attatch along with the appropriate connection for whatever throttle cable we choose to use.



I



First, the linkage that connects the cable to the pushrod: remove it. It cannot be used with my idea.

[Enraged]

hmmm sounds interesting, keep goin...

[GreaseMonkey]

I was looking at a corolla the other day and i saw the throttle cable running into a box type thing with another cable coming out and going to the TB. After looking at it for about 10seconds im like DUH! why dont WE do that?? think about it, hook up the cable to moavble linkage(no where near the actual TB)but still able to turn the TPS. I thnk we could use the part thats mounted to the valve covers right now to moun the TPS on some how. Then run the cable out of the box and to the TB of your choice!

Ok to review, your foot>petal>throttle cable 1>the box w/TPS> Throttle cable B>big throttle body!

[p5150]

thats a good idea greasemonkey, but I think there would be too much variance in between where the TPS would be and the position of the butterfly valve. The adjustment for the TPS is picky enough as it is now - the car wont run right if there is ANY variance in between the plate position and reading from the TPS.



To continue my statement.....

Second, we need to overcome the difference in connectors and the one-way action for the cruise control. I dont want to abandon mine, and would like to incorporate it into this one way or another. I think we could somehow use the stock linkage for this, and connect it to the TOP connector (AKA the stock connection on the TB) with the pushrod. We need to allow the butterfly to move freely without constantly moving the cruise control wire. Also, the cruise control actuator would have to be relocated.

Third, the choice of a throttle cable is yet to be determined. Because the setup is in fact custom, I really dont care what kind of cable it is as long as it is the right length and I can adapt an end fitting to work for this application.

[BrysonK]

I have a 2jz tb sitting infront of me and have no clue how i'd reverse it.. could you expand on this subject a bit more? 7M TPS sensor bolts right in.

[TD42T]

I have used the 1j manifold and throttle body.
To reverse the butterfly in the TB I just removed the linkage assembly from the side and replaced the middle part with a spacer.
I then welded a new stopper on it and used a 7m cable crank bizzo on the end and a new mount for the return spring.
Getting the return spring working effectivly has been my biggest drama.
With the butterfly reversed it jammed a little open but a little bit of sanding and a file fixed this.
The plate that turns the TPS on the 1j TB was 90deg out to work with the 7m TPS so I welded the hole up and made a new one with the right phasing.
A couple of things to note-I have blocked the stock fuel return and am using another from the cold start port as the linkage cable setup on the TB would have hit the stock return.
Also the 1j ISC works fine with the 7m plug plugged straight into it.
Also the 1j and 2j manifolds are a little different.

marty

[SupraBadBoyMKIII]

after looking at the manifold that ULTRA7M has on his car , I was wondering what are the difference (performance wise) between the 'square' style and a 'round' style 2jz manifold

His manfold botls right up to the head deosnt use the long runnner to extend it out a bit .. know what i mean? any downfalls or benefits to that?

heres a pic :

http://home.comcast.net/~ernestp15/enginetop.jpg

[andrejun]

I'm betting he has velocity stacks inside that box.

[SupraBadBoyMKIII]

please explain , what do u mean the velocity stacks inside the box??????????

is this beneficial ? if so how???????

[Enraged]

basically, velocity stacks are short tubes with curved out ends, to smooth the airflow into each cylinder. BUT as has been stated before, this will only affect off-boost driving, becuase once boost hits, your cramming as much air into the engine as possible, so it fills up every nook and cranny. on an NA engine velocity stacks would be good, but they are not required on a turbo engine. the best thing to do with a turbo engine is just to smooth out the inlet for each cylinder, as Ron and others have done on theirs.

[adjuster]

Too bad that car has not put any dyno figures out, or even run at the track.
Looks nice, but how much power does it make?
I heard it run, and it ran fine. (from the trailer to the parking space.) LOL
Very nice car, I just want to see it in action.

[AZmkiii]

Sombody should start making some decent mani's I am sure there are a few people interested ;) ;) ;)

Be sure to contact dusty first though.

[Enraged]

Ron (jt2ma71) makes them, PM him about cost and time.

[BrysonK]

Kruso, are you still around? Any more details on flipping the tb plate?

Thanks..
Bryson Kriz

[SupraGuy88T]

anyone have any imput about replacing the TB with a bigger one on a 2JZ style manifold but keeping the stock CT-26. would an 80MM TB hurt it more then help it? or would the benefits only be see after a bigger higher flow Turbo is used?

[p5150]

unless your entire length of intercooler tubing is about three inches, I dont think it will serve a practical purpose. And theres no point for intercooler tubing that big unless you have a huge turbo. Just my .02psi.

[p5150]

Heres an update on the project:

:devil: I got a free throttle cable! The parts guys were busy at the junkyard so they just let me pull it myself. I got it out of an early 90's 4runner. Suprisingly, its quite a bit longer than the stock cable and utilizes the same connection on both ends of the cable. It easily reaches the front bumper.

Im thinking that I may just be able to relocate the throttle/cruise control quadrant to the front near the radiator and possibly place the cruise control actuator where the battery sits now.

[Enraged]

keeping the cruise control would be quite alot of work... mine doesnt work right now, i doubt im going to keep it with my intake mani...

on another note, I've made up a website regarding forward facing intake manifolds, feel free to read through it. in the future ill be showing pics of my progress, some CAD designs for parts, etc

the link: http://pxi.ath.cx/users/engr152

[BrysonK]

... kruso?

[Kruso]

Still very much so alive and kicking.....I've taken some pics but none that would really explain how the process was completed. I guess you'll really get the hang of it when you take the butterfly apart....(trust me not hard!) as you guys should be able to see in the pictures, the normal 7M TPS is used and also should be able to make out the ghetto rig butterfly throttle linkage.

Kruso

[Kruso]

Right behind the TPS you guys will notice there is another plate that can be unscrewed with two pillips screws behind which you'll find the two springs that keep the butterfly propelled back. Thats what you'll have to reverse.

[Kruso]

Btw, sorry for the late response to the pics.....too much's been going on...

[BrysonK]

Thanks for the response! Going to look tomorrow on mine..

[BrysonK]

Dug inside tonite, got the Traction control stuff out, and flipped the butterfly plate around ( i see the gash ) but i can't figure out how you reverse the springs around? I know what your getting at, but i can't see how you do it.

Any more instruction on this part? How does it run without the dashpot?

Thanks
BK

[Kruso]

You dont need to take the TRC stuff off, im about to do something kool with that aswelll but thats another project on its own. The spring thing...you literally FLIP the spring around. When you're doing it, keep in mind that I utilized the SAME springs to get it to work the other way around! Keep that in your head and you'll get it right. BTW, you need to flip the butterfly closer to the back of the manifold, not the trc one! The flipping of the spring involves some bending of the springs to get them to stay.

Kruso

[BrysonK]

Yea, i took the TRC one out completely, working with the rear one. It didnt seem to fit that good when i flip it around.... if you dont use the dashpot, how do you keep tension on the spring?

Heh.. pictures would really simplify this ALOT ;) *hint hint* , Or a diagram in ms paint :P

[mk4s4bkfst]

jus buy a new car

[mk4s4bkfst]

lol

[Kruso]

Lmao, just buy a new car huh rud....dude....im not really wanting to take that tb apart any further more. Its starting to get cold down here.... if i get enough balls to do it, i'll take some pics and send em over this way.

Kruso

[BrysonK]

One thing i dont get, if you flip the butterfly plate around, and your pulling the other way, how does the throttle linkage work then? Wouldn't it need to be pulled to the FRONT of the car?

[Kruso]

Sure would, thats another obstacle you'd need to tackle! This isnt a walk in the park Bryson...

Kruso

[BrysonK]

Heh. I realize that. What did you do to over come this?

[makenzie71]

okay...I bought an intercooler with the intentions of using it with my 1jz project..well, like the last four times I'm strongly considered it, I changed my mind...but now I'm stuck with an intercooler that won't work very well with the 7m-GTE's intake setup. Shitmonkies.

My solution is to make a new intake plenum in the 1/2jz fashion. My question lies in the materials I use, though. I want to use some of the crap I have lying around my yard to build it but I'm concerned with how well the steel will seal against the aluminum runners (don't know what they're called, the runners that go in between the plenum and the head). I'm going to use a 3/8" mild steel plate as the mounting surface...would the steel warp or stretch or whatever diferenly enough from the cast aluminum to matter?

[Enraged]

use aluminum for the entire thing.... it will be a BIG pain connecting the aluminum runners to the steel plenum.

[makenzie71]

They're just bolt on...

The plenum is going to have it's own runner assembly that will bolt to the stock aluminum runners. Imagine the plenum in your head...it's going to be just like that but with the throttle body facing the front of the car.

[makenzie71]

Also, if anyone uses a style of intercooler with the inlet and outlet on oppasite ends but with the stock plenum, I'd like to know how you plumbed it in.

[Supra_N2O]

im gonna try using IC with opposed ends, but im gonna try to figure out how to make a gradual 180 degree bend off of the throttle body and cross over to that side

[turbotoy]

The mating flange will need to be milled (or could also be ground if you are going to use steel). As-rolled A36 plate would not provide a surface finish low enough, plus it's going to warp badly when you weld it. I'm not sure why you want to fabricate this out of steel however, it's going to add a lot of weight.

I would just cross over to the other side at the intercooler. I'm not a fan of these front entry manifolds, but that's just me :)

[makenzie71]

well I have yet to find an example of a decent plumbing route to cross over like that...I like the front entry manifold but the only reason why I'm doing it is to connect with the IC which is otherwise a useless paperweight...

[turbotoy]

Just run a tube parallel to the cross member. Dr J. did it with a NPR intercooler at one point.

[makenzie71]

yeah I just saw a decent example of that but I wouldn't think it'd work very well...it leaves a LOT of extra pipe that the turbo has to pressurize...

[turbotoy]

Eh, an extra 100 in^3 or so - you'll never notice it.

[makenzie71]

I guess I'll see.

[bdekoning]

heh. worried about a DUMB amount of excess pipe, yet not about running a random STEEL intake plenum..

...yeaaaaaa

[makenzie71]

^maybe you care to elaborate...especially beings I didn't go into any details on my design.

[bjw54321]

build a new intake manifold...then easy piping from there

[adjuster]

Easy way is with a 2.5" 90 180 bend. Have a good shop weld that alluminum pipe onto your IC so it is facing the right direction.
then just plumb your turbo so it feeds the IC from that direction through the FMIC and off the other side into a pipe going up through the snorkle hole and into the stock throttle body.
Easy to do, and you will have a very fine looking and working system.
Or you can try and make an intake of unknown flow rates, or quirks that could starve one cyc and over feed another. (Resulting in rich in one, and lean in the other. Either way, your performance sucks, and your engine life is limited.)

The stock center feed design is the best out there for a I6. Look at the NA versions of this motor from any company. Benz, Jeep, Chevy, Ford, Toyota/Lexus and others all feed the engines that need the flow the most from the center of the manifold. Only on the turbo models did they go with a side feed. (To shorten the pipes, and move them away from heat, but with a larger turbo, or more boost pressure, the shorter pipes theory is gone, and the heat is easy to fix with some coatings.)
The best design would be one that feeds from the center and avoids the heat. The problem is the strut tower is right where a center feed intake TB should be if you wanted to avoid the turbo heat. (Come in from the drivers side to a center feed intake.)

Good luck on your project. I'd just get a 180 bend and go with it.

[hotcress]

Ron had his barrel style front fed intake mani flow tested to make sure it wouldn't be blamed for engine damage for folks who he built them for. He also tested the stock manifold.
He says outflowed the stocker, was equal on all 6 runners whereas the stock mani wasn't even.

[Kruso]

Look at the last picture closer....you should be able to make out what i've done. Its all in that picture.

Kruso

[makenzie71]

those rubber boot thingies that they use to connect the hardpipe plumbing to the throttle body or the turbo and what not...what are they called? Where do I get them?

[BrysonK]

the spring? Can't really make it out....

[Kruso]

no, NOT that spring....i dont even know why thats there, i think i stuck that on to make sure i dont get crap in the mani during the rebuild. Forget that spring, focus on the linkage attatchment connected to the end of the butterfly shaft. Look at how its positioned, and notice on the manifold where the cable is bolted (there's a small mount, look closer) at the mid top of the pic.

Kruso

[BoostAddctn]

Originally posted by makenzie71
those rubber boot thingies that they use to connect the hardpipe plumbing to the throttle body or the turbo and what not...what are they called? Where do I get them?

couplers :) aight peace

[BrysonK]

so you have the cable coming up over the top a bit ( by the mount ), and then connecting, so it pulls it up and back?

[Kruso]

Dude....I give up.....just fed ex the damn car down here. and i'll do it!

[BrysonK]

Ha! You'd keep it :P I just need more direct instructions rather than a where's waldo search ;)

Check your pm's

[BrysonK]

bump since this isn't a sticky anymore

[DL.]

If I were to do this with modifying the stock 7mgte manifold and just use aluminum tubing welded on top, where do you guys source aluminum tubing? I did a search for it and could not find any. I also need mandrel bent aluminum for intercooler tubes.
thanks guys!

[knucklehead]

Originally posted by DL.
If I were to do this with modifying the stock 7mgte manifold and just use aluminum tubing welded on top, where do you guys source aluminum tubing? I did a search for it and could not find any. I also need mandrel bent aluminum for intercooler tubes.
thanks guys!

I got my stuff from www.onlinemetals.com, they will cut you whatever size you need.

[dziuggy]

Originally posted by knucklehead
I got my stuff from www.onlinemetals.com, they will cut you whatever size you need.

do they do bends as well or you ned local shop for that? their prices is preaty good, as far as i saw

ziggy

[p5150]

I need a 4" diameter punched section so the end of my manifold isnt flat. Any ideas? Also - im looking for a RESONABLY PRICED reducer solution to mount my stock TB to the main body of the manifold. Any CUSTOM ideas?

[FredTurbo]

Kruso, I would like to know what difference(if there's one) it make on the top end with the 2jz intake, shorter IC pipe and NPR IC? Basically I want to know if the engine pulls harder past 5k-6k rpm vs the stock Intake, or if didn't make a difference there. Should be a bit less lag too isn't it?

Nice topic BTW, tons of good infos!:)

[Kruso]

Tell you the truth I couldnt tell you on my MKIII if the top end is better or not but I constantly find my self in the 6K range when the car is still pulling. Almost no two MKIII's are alike...and my car was plagued with problems in the past and never ran right therefore I couldnt give you an answer to that question....

Kruso

[p5150]

I found a reducer solution for those interested.... 17731-H01US .
Type in that number on a yahoo/msn search and see what you find. Thanks goes out to Ron - aka 7t2ma71

This is the cheapest ive found so far: http://www.asapparts.com/price_hks_2003.htm - $48.75

[FredTurbo]

Originally posted by Kruso
Tell you the truth I couldnt tell you on my MKIII if the top end is better or not but I constantly find my self in the 6K range when the car is still pulling. Almost no two MKIII's are alike...and my car was plagued with problems in the past and never ran right therefore I couldnt give you an answer to that question....

Kruso

OK thats not sure but thats gives me an idea nonetheless!

Do you have a dyno sheet of your dyno run?

I'm planning on going with a custom front face intake(from ron) this summer and I'm gonna be on the stock turbo for a while, before going with an sp61gt or something similar. So thats just to have an idea how it feel with the stock turbo.

[fstlane88]

Kruso, clean out your PM box...

Guess I'll post it here, since there's no use in hiding my lack of welding skills....

If I sent you a 2J TB, would/could you help me out with the flipping then welding issue with the TB. I'd pay ya. LMK.

[Kruso]

Just cleaned out my pm box.....about the TB....the mkiv tps i was initially messing with turned out to be faulty. I've gotten my hands on a new mkiv TPS which is going on another project car made by us, and i'll let you know how compatible that is.

Kruso

[fstlane88]

So wait I'm confused....the TPS is or was the problem...the plate in the TB still has to be flipped around, correct?

[fstlane88]

Any update Kruso?

[p5150]

you dont need to flip anything

manufacture some brackets to support the throttle linkage and rotate it 90 degrees so that the linkage is mounted above the center of the intake mani runners and the pushrod points toward the throttle body.

weld a small extension onto the pushrod

weld a small extension onto the throttle body butterfly linkage where the pushrod connects to normally. This will allow the pushrod to clear the linkage on the throttle body

instead of pulling on the TB linkage, the pushrod now pushes on the linkage.

pow - you are done with no tps issues.

[fstlane88]

Oh ok, thanks man.

[Kruso]

Originally posted by p5150
you dont need to flip anything

manufacture some brackets to support the throttle linkage and rotate it 90 degrees so that the linkage is mounted above the center of the intake mani runners and the pushrod points toward the throttle body.

weld a small extension onto the pushrod

weld a small extension onto the throttle body butterfly linkage where the pushrod connects to normally. This will allow the pushrod to clear the linkage on the throttle body

instead of pulling on the TB linkage, the pushrod now pushes on the linkage.

pow - you are done with no tps issues.

WTF are you talking about??? Are you even GRASPING what is being discussed here??? On its own, the butterfly DOES NOT spin 360 degrees! Its STOPS at 180 degrees....so not only will what I THINK you're trying to say not work because Im not comprehending what you're trying to say, you STILL havent said anything about the damn butterfly spining the OPPOSITE WAY for our TPS to work.

As far as the update....the new TPS we're working with on paper seems to be within specs to the 7M motor but when it was installed on our project car the results were not what we were hoping for. The only thing I can say at this time is having done what is done to my car, what was originally posted in this thread towards the begining is the best fail safe way.

There's been alot of things going on with my and interex_87's schedule, too much stuff on our plates as of recently thats why the progress on this project is taking some time. But I know for a fact that some of the people on this baord reading this have dealt with this issue successfully and are NOT contributing to this thread by keeping quite! Kind of makes me upset but what goes around, comes around.

Kruso

ps
fstlane88, since you got how p5150 explained his idea, maybe you could elaborate on it a little, thanks.

[fstlane88]

Truth is, I didn't get what he was saying, I thanked him for replying with what I thought was credible info, which I would then use when I did the mod.

I don't think it will be of issue now, since I'm having someone fab me an intake mani, and will be using stock 7M TB.

[p5150]

Originally posted by Kruso
WTF are you talking about??? Are you even GRASPING what is being discussed here??? On its own, the butterfly DOES NOT spin 360 degrees! Its STOPS at 180 degrees....so not only will what I THINK you're trying to say not work because Im not comprehending what you're trying to say, you STILL havent said anything about the damn butterfly spining the OPPOSITE WAY for our TPS to work.


Im talking about the stock TB. Ive been running this setup for a month now. Sorry if I didnt make myself clear enough - ill try to elaborate. My new $250 digital camera is broken so words will have to suffice.

In a stock configuration, the throttle linkage PULLS on the butterfly of the TB. Also, in its stock location, the throttle cable "points" towards the passenger fender. Here is the difference:

1: The butterfly universal linkage (for cruise control and throttle cable) is moved and mounted with custom brackets so that the throttle cable now "points" toward the front of the car. The pushrod, when connected to the TB, will point towards the front as well.

2: The ball on the butterfly of the TB is removed and welded to a small (~1.5") extension so that it sticks out farther on the side of the TB. This allows the rod that will be PUSHING from the back of the TB (from the newly relocated butterfly linkage) to have sufficient clearance from the TB linkage during its full range of travel.

3: You must appropriately extend the pushrod by welding in a section of material.

This setup is especially useful because it allows you to retain the use of your cruise control.

Have a nice day.

[p5150]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/519187/Picture_0585.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/519187/Picture_0584.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/519187/Picture_0583.JPG

[Kruso]

The whole point is to utilize the 2J throttle body because of its size. The 7M TB fits INSIDE the 2J TB. You are kinda defeating the purpose by placing a smaller TB on a big manifold, because its only as big as its entrance. People pay big bucks to shave the inner lining of the STOCK TB MILLIMETERS for hundreds of dollars. Thats what this whole thread was based on.......read the first post that was made here.

Kruso

[p5150]

i think that you are defeating the purpose by putting a big tb on a small IC pipe - unless you have 3" IC pipes.

[Kruso]

Originally posted by p5150
i think that you are defeating the purpose by putting a big tb on a small IC pipe - unless you have 3" IC pipes.

Pics of the bigger IC and pipes on first and second page.

[p5150]

are you talking about the pics of your crush-bent pipes and NPR intercooler with a 2.5" inlet and outlet?

[Interex_87]

Larger TB's have always been known to improve power even with smaller IC pipes. This has been talked about before. Essentially what you are doing is removing every restriction that you can to your intake system. Flow will improve with the more restrictions that you remove from your system. The TOYOTA Turbo A TB is larger than stock but TOYOTA did not change the stock IC piping. MK-IV guys upgrade to the Infinity 80mm TB's all the time but do they have 80mm IC piping? Nope, but that doesn't make the mod worthless.

FYI: To update everyone on the progress of the TPS experiment, we are now working on designing ways to get the stock TPS to work with the existing 2JZ TB setup without flipping the butterfly. Once I get some time, I'll post some progress pictures. Just be patient... ;)

[Jon B]

Couldn't resist posting this b/c I read that noone has done this with the stock 7M turbo mani.
Also, 3 inch piping. 70mm tb. Stock iac. Stock tps. Small turbo, 20g made 427RWHP @ only 16 psi. Full boost by 3500 and pulls just as hard to 7k. I should probably raise the redline to 7500 and turn up the boost to about 22-3 psi next trip to the dyno.

http://www.supramania.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5946&highlight=jz+intake

[turbosupra]

Just so that there is no confusion about who did this and when

I did this in 1999, except I made an entire new lower plenum piece, rather than merging two together, the car made 530rwhp at ~ 20 pounds. The advantage to the new flanges is you do not have to have it angled like the stock mk4 flange has it angled, you can make it completely vertical up and down, so that the actual mk4 plenum angles more towards the strut tower ... no need to cut up the FPR. I used the stock mk4 t/b with a tec2, any old supra digest members would remember the car.

The parts were then sold to Kevin L from CT ~ 2001

To comment on another post you made, you said that boost was created by a restriction, that is completely incorrect, except in the application of a roots type supercharger. Turbochargers and centrifugical superchargers all compress (or create boost) inside of their compressor housings, it is not created as a result of a backing up of air due to an inability of the motor being able to use and consume it





Originally posted by Kruso
No one on this forums, or any other forums has ever converted their 7M turbo manifold into a front feed MKIV style manifold.I think you are mistaking the one that someone else on this board using the 1J mani welded to the 7M lower runners with an extension to the TB using a 6-8~ inch extension. I have yet to see a stock one converted, and it wouldnt be a good idea to convert one either. Sry Adam, I did misunderstand you, I thougt you were referring to the MKIV manifold.

Kruso

[Kruso]

Originally posted by turbosupra
Just so that there is no confusion about who did this and when

I did this in 1999, except I made an entire new lower plenum piece, rather than merging two together, the car made 530rwhp at ~ 20 pounds. The advantage to the new flanges is you do not have to have it angled like the stock mk4 flange has it angled, you can make it completely vertical up and down, so that the actual mk4 plenum angles more towards the strut tower ... no need to cut up the FPR. I used the stock mk4 t/b with a tec2, any old supra digest members would remember the car.

The parts were then sold to Kevin L from CT ~ 2001

To comment on another post you made, you said that boost was created by a restriction, that is completely incorrect, except in the application of a roots type supercharger. Turbochargers and centrifugical superchargers all compress (or create boost) inside of their compressor housings, it is not created as a result of a backing up of air due to an inability of the motor being able to use and consume it

Nice.... but a couple of things to clear up.... from what I get from your reply, it sounds like you still utilized the 2JZ upper manifold. What I initially said was "No one on this forums, or any other forums has ever converted their 7M turbo manifold" None the less I should've said "none that I've heard of". At the time of the write up there were alot of cars running around with the front fed manifolds that were custom fabbed up from scratch. More or less the point of this thread was to get it done within budget. Also at the time of the write up the car did not have ANY other supporting mods for ANY type of higher boost, thus the low dyno numbers but all that changed this summer and the new numbers will be comming soon as soon as we get some additional time to mess with the cars.

Its been a while since this thing was written up but the second car that was converted to "front fed" intake had totally new built from scratch lower runners that bolt up the 2J mani straight onto the 7M head without any cutting or welding which came out looking very nice, will post detail pics of that later on as well.


Kruso

[Interex_87]

Originally posted by turbosupra
Just so that there is no confusion about who did this and when

I did this in 1999, except I made an entire new lower plenum piece, rather than merging two together, the car made 530rwhp at ~ 20 pounds. The advantage to the new flanges is you do not have to have it angled like the stock mk4 flange has it angled, you can make it completely vertical up and down, so that the actual mk4 plenum angles more towards the strut tower ... no need to cut up the FPR. I used the stock mk4 t/b with a tec2, any old supra digest members would remember the car.


Im guessing these are the pics of your old setup?: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1667269#post1664907

[turbosupra]

Yes sir



Originally posted by Interex_87
Im guessing these are the pics of your old setup?: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1667269#post1664907

[turbosupra]

I did not realize you had converted your stock 7m manifold to a front feed, I thought you were using a 2j upper. I liked the idea of the 2j upper because it can be had for $200 or so, complete, and the 7m ISC bolts to it, as well as the brake master vacuum line and such. I also used a custom shorter radiator and routed the piping right beside it, straight out of the intercooler and to the mk4 throttle body

I would like to see your second adapter, I think that is a good way to go, you'll have to post pics when you get the opportunity.

It is a great mod, it removes about 5 feet of intercooler piping :)




Originally posted by Kruso
Nice.... but a couple of things to clear up.... from what I get from your reply, it sounds like you still utilized the 2JZ upper manifold. What I initially said was "No one on this forums, or any other forums has ever converted their 7M turbo manifold" None the less I should've said "none that I've heard of". At the time of the write up there were alot of cars running around with the front fed manifolds that were custom fabbed up from scratch. More or less the point of this thread was to get it done within budget. Also at the time of the write up the car did not have ANY other supporting mods for ANY type of higher boost, thus the low dyno numbers but all that changed this summer and the new numbers will be comming soon as soon as we get some additional time to mess with the cars.

Its been a while since this thing was written up but the second car that was converted to "front fed" intake had totally new built from scratch lower runners that bolt up the 2J mani straight onto the 7M head without any cutting or welding which came out looking very nice, will post detail pics of that later on as well.


Kruso

[Jeff Lange]

Bumping this up again, since I'm sure a few more people have tried this since then.

I'm interested in doing a setup like this, however there are a few things bothering me right now...

1. Can it be done without taking the engine out of the car, I would assume so, but I don't know.
2. Has the TB issue been cleared up at all yet? If it's simply a resistance change for the MKIV TPS compared to the MKIII TPS, I'd rather just use the MKIV TPS with some resistors in there or whatever is needed, did you ever find out Kruso?
3. ISC and Cold Start Valve, do they hook up fine, or what's the deal?
4. What belt did you use for the alternator? Stock?
5. I want cruise control to work, is that a problem?


That's all I can think of right now, basically I just wanted to know what I need to do it, because I'm thinking I may need a FF manifold, and the 2JZ one seem viable.

[mullenc525]

im gonna bump it too. same q's as jeff...

[Kruso]

1. Yes it can be done without taking engine out of car.
2. My original design is still functioning properly, although we're still not clear on the resistor theory due to some unexpected issues, like our built heads getting stolen!
3. Both the ISC and Cold Start Valve are pretty much plug and play items, hardly ANY customization required (trust me nothing to be worried about!).
4. Cruise Control would NOT be a problem because of the way everything works out...but we have totally disconnected ours.

Kruso

[CornerDoctor]

I was wondering if the power gains from this setup were mostly in the IM or in the piping avoiding the turbo housing on the way to the TB?
The reason I'm asking is the stock 7m's manifold seems designed very much along the same lines as an 87 up 5.0 liter mustang. They are designed to get a very long runner and maximize low end torque but the 180 the air doesn in the manifold really hurts flow. What I was wondering is if any one has taken the same basic idea the ford guys use and built a large short plenum still facing the side. This could avoid all the linkage and TB problems.

Here's a picture of what I had in mind
http://www.swcp.com/mcs-bin/Exp_Image.cgi?img_src=images/Ind99/UInt6.jpg

[hotcress]

As far as the tps issues goes. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I've seen the 2j converted to the q45 tb and the traction control sensor was used as the tps, only thing the wires are reversed.
The q45 tb opens the same direction as the 7m oposite to the 2j. Why not just reverse the wires in the stock 7m tps connector. Reversing works for the 2j wiring to the 7m/q45 direction of butterfly opening. So why won't reversing the 7m wiring to the 2j butterfly opening direction work? assuming that the voltage is the same?

[skeen550]

What type of aluminum welding has been used to piece the two halves of the manifold back together ?

I have a Lincoln Pro-MIG 175, it wont do TIG but from what I have read TIG is great for really thin aluminum welding.

The intake runners look to be at least 1/8 to maybe 1/4 of an inch thick so my welder should do it ok even though its a MIG welder.

Scott

[smooth3d]

Originally posted by hotcress
As far as the tps issues goes. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I've seen the 2j converted to the q45 tb and the traction control sensor was used as the tps, only thing the wires are reversed.
The q45 tb opens the same direction as the 7m oposite to the 2j. Why not just reverse the wires in the stock 7m tps connector. Reversing works for the 2j wiring to the 7m/q45 direction of butterfly opening. So why won't reversing the 7m wiring to the 2j butterfly opening direction work? assuming that the voltage is the same?
bumpalicious for same questions!

[JDMfantasy]

I would be more than willing to help anyone out in grafting a 2j upper to the 7m lowers. I could also put on a stock TB plate for use of the stock 7m throttle body. No need to figure out TPS issues then. Cruise controll would also be the same.

[CassMori]

is it easier to graft the 2J flange to the 7M lower mainfold, or the 7M flange to the 2J upper? Would it make any difference for performance and/or difficulty?

[skeen550]

I have figured out how to put the 7m TB on the 2jz upper. Its pretty easy, and like has been said the TPS issue is gone and the cruise is kept. I see how to do the stock linkage and all per other guys posts on this thread. My issue is now cutting both lowers off and welding the 2jz lower flange to the 7mgte lower so I can bolt the 2jz upper to it.

I was thinking of making an adapter plate out of mild steel but havent looked into it yet, not sure if the alignment would be to out of whack or what.

Scott

[Lord Mike]

Hah someone figure out the TPS problem(without redoing TB plate)!! I just got my 2J Mani in and gotta know whether i need to reverse TB or not before summer!

[smooth3d]

Bump for any updates to this work in progress.

[Lord Mike]

Just out of curiosity, whats the difference in size from the 7M to 2J throttle Body? Maybe it would be just easier to adapt 7mtb to 2j mani.

[Interex_87]

Well, just to give you an idea, you can fit the 7M TB INSIDE the 2JZ TB.

[williamb82]

2jztb is 64mm plate where as 7m is 60mm iirc.

[smooth3d]

If the difference between the 2jz and the 7m throttle body is only 4mm it hardly seems worth the effort to adapt the 2jz tb. I would agree with a previous post stating to adapt the 7m tb.

Now if you were to go with an 80mm tb, that is a different story.

[Kruso]

Wait....what the! WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE IM WITH STUPID SIGN!

Kruso

[Interex_87]

1JZ TB: 66mm ID / 60mm Plate <- Confirmed
Stock TB: 65mm ID / 60mm Plate <- Confirmed
Turbo A TB: 70mm ID / 65mm Plate
2JZ-GTE TB: 71mm ID / 65mm Plate <- Confirmed
QX45 TB: 84mm ID / 80mm Plate

Humm, I wonder why people pay top dollar for Turbo A TB's when they are ONLY 5mm bigger than stock?

[skeen550]

I got my 2jz upper on and am using the 7mgte TB, it was easy to get the TB mounted perfectly to line up. I made a gasket from some paper gasket sheet that you can buy at autozone to make custom gaskets. I modified the stock linkage to work the TB and I keep my cruise to boot. To me the TB size difference is simply not worth it, especially in a forced induction application like the 7mgte. I have no TPS issues, I kept my cruise and the stock throttle cable works as well. I am not looking to push 600HP, stock 7mgte TB's take the engine to 500hp all the time, and all I want right now is about 325hp and in the future maybe 450hp, so the 7mgte TB fits my goals. I will post some pics of my setup in a few days when I get my camera back from a friend.

[Interex_87]

I got my 2jz upper on and am using the 7mgte TB, it was easy to get the TB mounted perfectly to line up. I made a gasket from some paper gasket sheet that you can buy at autozone to make custom gaskets. I modified the stock linkage to work the TB and I keep my cruise to boot. To me the TB size difference is simply not worth it, especially in a forced induction application like the 7mgte. I have no TPS issues, I kept my cruise and the stock throttle cable works as well. I am not looking to push 600HP, stock 7mgte TB's take the engine to 500hp all the time, and all I want right now is about 325hp and in the future maybe 450hp, so the 7mgte TB fits my goals. I will post some pics of my setup in a few days when I get my camera back from a friend.

In the end you will have lost easy power. Larger throttle bodies have always been known to increase power, regardless of aspiration. Thats why Toyota opted for a lager TB for it's high performance versions of the Supra, the Turbo A & Group A. The stock TB is just not a match for the 2JZ manifold and the intentions of this project are to make a full 2JZ intake conversion.

[skeen550]

The TB opening on the 2JZ is larger yes, its sorta oblong at the opening, its been a few months since I did this but I just looked again to refresh my memory. The 7MGTE TB fits perfect at the bottom and going up the sides, its at the top where the 2JZ gets larger.

As far as a larger TB making more power, yes it CAN but you also must realize that more volume of air to move means less throttle response, I know under boost things change, but who is under boost 100% of the time.

Its been proven in dyno after dyno of NA motors that you can gain HP from a larger carb, but you can also loose power, why not just stick a 1050 cfm dominator on an engine VS a 750 cfm carb ? well, it doesnt always work, bigger is not always better, especially in a steet driven car, the track, ok different story but I think that most cars on this forum are on the street.

I understand the point of this entire thread but I dont see any EASY answers to the TPS or the linkage issues and I am willing to bet the TB size wont get you more than 10hp, probably less.

I will turn up the boost 1 psi and get that.

Also, if you look at the volume of the intakes the 2jz upper looks no larger in total volume than the 7mgte upper, if there is a difference its marginal.

In the end, its simply my opinion but I think that others who want to do this need not be afraid that if you dont have a 2jz TB the end result wont be worth it.

If you want the 2JZ TB, then by all means go for it, I just looked at my bang per buck and felt the 7MGTE TB was the way to go, plus to me the main reason I went with the 2JZ intake was to shorten my intercooler pipes and keep the intercooler piping as far away as possible from the hot exhaust and engine.

I have seen others argue on and on that the 7MGTE is better for flow reasons and so on, ceramic coat your intercooler pipes over the turbo, so on. So mileage may vary, I am just simply relaying what I did and why, I am not saying its the BEST or only way to do it.

I will post pics on the TB entry and how well it lines up so others can see what I mean on the fitment.

Scott

http://tinypic.com/2n66hu
http://tinypic.com/2n66qd

more pics to come

[JDMfantasy]

For those wanting to run a larger TB (2jz isn't much of an upgrade), look at using a TB from a 1UZ-FE. Its around 70mm+ and uses the stock toyota TPS. No issues whatsoever with, no flipping pins, no reversing the butterfly.....ect, and its that much bigger without being too overboard.

I've made a front facing manifold to accept one of these for "Coinball" here on the forums. hit him up for some pics of it.

[smooth3d]

For those wanting to run a larger TB (2jz isn't much of an upgrade), look at using a TB from a 1UZ-FE. Its around 70mm+ and uses the stock toyota TPS. No issues whatsoever with, no flipping pins, no reversing the butterfly.....ect, and its that much bigger without being too overboard.

I've made a front facing manifold to accept one of these for "Coinball" here on the forums. hit him up for some pics of it.No flipping pins...stock tps...70mm?That sounds like music to my ears!!! Almost seems too easy...does it bolt right up to the manifold?

[JDMfantasy]

The bolt pattern is different but for anyone who would want to use one, I could make you a new plate to bolt it up to.

PM coinball for all the details:-)

[coinball]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/coinball/DSC00331.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/coinball/DSC00330.jpg

as requested, thats the 1UZ TB and my FFI from JDMfantasy and Martydaman1. bottom line is give them u'r money and they'll take good care of you!

no ass-o-meter gains yet...rebuilding my motor right now...but i'll have a nice write up soon.

[suprra_girl]

where are you finding the 1uz throttle body? can someone point me in the right direction?

thanks :D

[JDMfantasy]

I would try car-parts.com, you can find pretty much anything on there

Or perhaps any local salvage yard

A complete 1UZ motor goes for as little as $300, so I wouldnt imagine the TB would be too much

[williamb82]

ive got 2 of them, didnt pay ish for either one although i do need flanges for them.

[ND_boost]

What is the 1UZ motor out of??

[JDMfantasy]

Lexus LS400's and some others.

[suprra_girl]

hey i was just wondering... for the guys that have done the ffi, what did you do with the isc pipe... ya know.. the one that originally goes back to the intake?
and what about a bov.. obviously can't run a plumback style as that's a long way and would look totally fugly lol

i'm gonna run the cam covers into a catch can but yea.. wanted to know what to do with the other two

and if you get an atmosphere bov what one should i go for and is there anything i need to know bout setting it up so i don't have issues... i don't think my issues would be as bad as normal.. i'm auto.. but yea.. don't want excessive richness on change and sudden deceleration :)

[JDMfantasy]

When we make our FFI's we take the ISC flange off of the stock manifold and put it on the new FFI, so you can simply plug it into the new FFI as you would stock. If you dont want to run an ISC, you simply set your idle at or just above 1000 rpm with the small idle adjustment screw on the TB.

As far as a bov, I havent had any problems running an SSQV to open atmosphere

[suprra_girl]

ummm... i don't think i wrote clearly enuf what i meant lol

i'm putting a stock isc on the 1j manifold, but what do i do about the bit that vents back to the intake... so you vent that to atmosphere with a filter on the end or do you route it somewhere else?

thanks :)

[JDMfantasy]

Ah, the 3 hoses that run to the turbo inlet pipe...

I've seen people use a small breather filter on the ISC, so that should work fine. The crankcase ventilation hoses can be run to a catch can and the BOV hose can be eliminated by running to open atmosphere.

[suprra_girl]

coinball: just got me a 1uz throttle body and my manifold is in the making :D
for the throttle cable what are you doing as far as a bracket for it?
i see the original one has been removed from yours... ya know.. the one the cable bolts into then goes on the butterfly

thanks :D

[coinball]

theres a bolt in the middle of the fuel rail that i used to hold my bracket. its a simple piece of angled steel with a slot cut in it for the 2JZ throttle cable...

[suprra_girl]

oh... i never even thought of that LOL

thanks ;)

[suprra_girl]

another annoying question.... what did all of you that have done the ffi do for the cold start injector? avg temps here are between 46 F - 54 F in the morning and days avg out at 60 F - 70 (winter)... summer i expect wouldn't be a problem?

thanks :D

[JDMfantasy]

You can go without it...cold morning start up are a bit shakey at times, but its not so bad. Coinball can tell you how it is.

You can also have who ever is making you the FFI manifold to cut the cold start injector flange off from the bottom of the stock manifold , and then drill a hole and just weld it onto the bottom of the FFI in roughly the same place.

[suprra_girl]

For those wanting to run a larger TB (2jz isn't much of an upgrade), look at using a TB from a 1UZ-FE. Its around 70mm+ and uses the stock toyota TPS. No issues whatsoever with, no flipping pins, no reversing the butterfly.....ect, and its that much bigger without being too overboard.

I've made a front facing manifold to accept one of these for "Coinball" here on the forums. hit him up for some pics of it.

so i have my 1uz tb & now ffi, but the 7m tps doesn't bolt on :(
do i need to use the 1uz one? are they the same?

thanks for any help :)

[NJsupraA70]

so i have my 1uz tb & now ffi, but the 7m tps doesn't bolt on :(
do i need to use the 1uz one? are they the same?

thanks for any help :)

im curious too

[supramikal]

does any one know how to use the 1uz tb on a ffi. what do i need to to to use it, do i need to use the 1uz tps on convert the 7m tps

[suprra_girl]

bump... has anyone found any further info on the 1uz/7m tps fitment? the 89+ 7m tps almost fits but is slightly off... if anyone has any pics of a 1uz tps that would also be useful :)

[Kruso]

Hey I remember this thread!

[Interex_87]

Why stop at the manifold? Just do whole motor while you are at it. :D

[suprra_girl]

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww no :P

7M FTW! ;)

They have their good points but i wuv my 7m and i will go all the way with it :naughty:

[Kruso]

Thats awesome! Someone's gotta do it...

[suprra_girl]

so i bought a 1uz tps and have rewired the 7m wires into the 1uz plug and did diag and no codes woot! Have yet to see what it's like when i start it up but hey, it's a bonus no codes on ign heh :D

[HaNd_SoLo]

so i bought a 1uz tps and have rewired the 7m wires into the 1uz plug and did diag and no codes woot! Have yet to see what it's like when i start it up but hey, it's a bonus no codes on ign heh :D

have u gotten ur car running yet? going to be making a ffim soon. was just going to use the stock tb but if this works i'll do that instead.

[HaNd_SoLo]

i emailed suprra_girl and this is the response i got:


I can now answer your question as i got it running yesterday :)
I have a small idle issue when cold but i've narrowed that down to the cold start injector being MIA. I have no tps codes and throttle response seems fairly normal, no strange happenings so i would say, yes it's as simple as calibrating the 1uz tps to 7m and rewiring the plug

good luck with your build :)


sounds good!!

[suprra_girl]

Additional information to above post regarding 1uz tps on a 7m:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549069

[suprahajimoto]

oh my bad, different type of Mani...