How to Minimize or Eliminate the chance of Rod Knock

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Well I hear many people talk of Getting rod knock after doing a engine rebuild. After doing a successfull rebuild, and then gettting knock I was a little worried. Well my knock was caused by a faulty oil pump drive shaft that caused a lack of oil.
It always seems to have a reason, but no one ever looks to themselves as the problem. Don't forget it all comes down to lubrication, machining, and poor assembleing. The bearings ride on a tiny film of oil. running rich, can cause poor lubricating problems. The gas runs past the rings and in to the oil making kerosene, this kills the bearings. Oil that is too hot can also cause bearing fatigue, and failure. Also running to thin of a viscosity, and poor filtering can contribute to bearing failure. Collectively the last problems mentioned can give a proper rebuild a knock. Let's look at what I see as things that can cause rod knock.

1. Faulty oiling system lack of oil, low oil pressure, not enough oil
2. Improper Machine work. i.e. poor tolerances Many machinist don't recognize that the specs must be very precise or there wll be failure
3. All components must be inspected for clearances, and in my opinion don't accept anything that is just within tolerance when it comes to rods.
4. crank must be cut and properly sized by a very reputable machinist. Ask questions you know the answers to. See if his answers match up to what must be done.
5. get good bearings. Clevites are fine but they are reboxed and are farmed out to other bearing companies. My mains were made by global, and my rod bearings made by NDC. They came in a clevite77 box. Call them and ask them if you dont believe me. They don't always use the same companies I hear. I also am told that the ndc bearings are .001 of an inch unersized. I hear that ACL are great and is moslty used in the MKIV's along side of clevite77's. This is your choice choose wisely! :blah: :stickpoke
6. Get new rods, or get them cut and resized no matter what! New they ar 36.00 cut they are 15.00 per rod. Arps cost 40.00 and are an option for added insurance.
7. use boots or tape to keep rod bolts from damageing crank!
8. use moly asembly lube that the machinist will give for free. Mine does.
9. DON'T mix end caps, and rods! this will cause knock! some of you don't know this, and after hearing "It knocked after staring" this is my guess a good reason why it knocked. Then you blame the car for your error.
10. after rods areinstalled in the block use a good torque wrench and torque to spec of factory or arp spec reccomendations,and use plastigauge to check clearance
11. Never put in an old oil pump unless you want to do this again! :dunno:
12. get new oil filter adapter, or go relocation kit and inline thermostat and cooler. The old adpter has a relief valve, and spring which wears over the years. After 150-200k it must be replaced, or you do this again because of low oil pressure. After installing my kit my pressure rose 12psi. :bigthumb:
13. Properly tune the engine especially when upping fuel pressure, and adding bigger turbos! :rolleyes: :wtflol:
14. Keep oil levels filled as mentioned by Drjonzes, add an extra quart! :)
15. However; One point is missing that you need to know. The bearings will be different sizes if the crank isn't cut to one size say like .25mm called 10 under. This presents the problem of a newbie, or even a seasoned mechanic mixing up the bearing sizes, and getting rod knock. To avoid this each rod journal must have the proper bearings marked in some form or fashion. You can have him list the sizes for each journal 1-6 in order so you won't have this problem.

When done correctly this procedure will give you a great knock free engine until you run low on oil. :dunno:

If I have left anything out be sure to chime in. :) :hug:
Anthony

[drjonez]

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, you're missing the biggest one:

KEEP THE ENGINE FULL OF OIL

heck, run w/an extra quart in the sump....

[QWIKSTRIKE]

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, you're missing the biggest one:

KEEP THE ENGINE FULL OF OIL

heck, run w/an extra quart in the sump....

You are correct there Drjonze; However I had the not enough oil as the first thing on the list and my thinking was that it equates to keep the levels filled.

But I will make that point explicitly known! :bigthumb: :)

[catch2nd]

I recently just had my motor rebuilt.... I also installed a perma cool relocation, themo and bigger cool...

running 15-40 dino when HOT, i have just under 20 at idle, and just under 40 at a 3000rpm cruise.... not sure if it goes up at a higher cruise (the motor only has 300miles on it)

Just figued i would post how i tight motor performs with a new oil pump, bearings, ect.

-Dustin

[drjonez]

sounds like you're still running the stock cooler bypass, you'll never see more than 40 psi then.

quick- we need a way to make the text blink....;)

[Zach90Turbo]

Hehe, I love the soapbox action drjonez. My dad's rule of thumb that he passed along to me is to check the oil every time you fill up with fuel. Also, procrastinating on fixing any kind of oil leak is just asking for rod knock as you don't know how quickly that leak will progress. Thanks for the info everybody.

[catch2nd]

sounds like you're still running the stock cooler bypass, you'll never see more than 40 psi then.

quick- we need a way to make the text blink....;)


stock oil cooler by-pass??

I replaced that with an N/A filter adapter, the out line runs to the filter, through the filter, through the thermo, through the oil cooler, back through the thermo and into the motor.... using all 1/2' lines

[QWIKSTRIKE]

sounds like you're still running the stock cooler bypass, you'll never see more than 40 psi then.

quick- we need a way to make the text blink....;)


Agreed Drjonze!

[CassMori]

sounds like you're still running the stock cooler bypass, you'll never see more than 40 psi then.

Dr. J -- when I run 5w-30 or higher, my pressure stays above 40 psi (~80 psi on startup) while driving, when hot (w/ 5w-30 only) and idling, it drops to ~30-35 psi. Does this mean I am getting no oil filtration at all? I presently have 0w-20 (~2k miles so far), and my oil pressure seems to be similar to every one elses (yes, I intend to change it to thicker now that the temps are rising).

[drjonez]

stock oil cooler by-pass??

I replaced that with an N/A filter adapter, the out line runs to the filter, through the filter, through the thermo, through the oil cooler, back through the thermo and into the motor.... using all 1/2' lines

really? you have some other problems then.....i'm guessing your thermo is part of it. make sure you have it routed correctly.

i'm running the NA filter mount stub, mocal sandwich thermo, -10 lines and a huge cooler. i see 15 psi @ idle and well over 60 by 3k.....

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Dr. J -- when I run 5w-30 or higher, my pressure stays above 40 psi (~80 psi on startup) while driving, when hot (w/ 5w-30 only) and idling, it drops to ~30-35 psi. Does this mean I am getting no oil filtration at all? I presently have 0w-20 (~2k miles so far), and my oil pressure seems to be similar to every one elses (yes, I intend to change it to thicker now that the temps are rising).


I wouldn't run that thin an oil after 500 miles. At the 500 mile mark I would have changed it to 10-30 or 10w40 untill the 1500-2000 mile period. After that I plan on running moble1 15w50 or the higher 20w50 mobile one. I may even run royal purple synthetic 20w50.

[CassMori]

I wouldn't run that thin an oil after 500 miles. At the 500 mile mark I would have changed it to 10-30 or 10w40 untill the 1500-2000 mile period. After that I plan on running moble1 15w50 or the higher 20w50 mobile one. I may even run royal purple synthetic 20w50.

I've put about 9k on the engine so far (not a rebuild, a JDM engine). Ran 20w-50, then 5w-30, this last time, my uncle had gotten some of the 0w-20 (for European cars, i.e., Mercedes), and gave it to me for free, so I decided to try it, since my oil pressure was so high. All were Mobil 1, changed with filter, at ~2500 miles.


i'm running the NA filter mount stub, mocal sandwich thermo, -10 lines and a huge cooler.

I plan on doing this within the next couple of months, which should resolve my oiling concerns (hopefully :) )

[Silver88Turbo]

My relief spring in the filter mount has been shimmed and I see 60psi at higher rpm. This is with the stock gauge though so god knows how accurate it is. I need a temp sensor though to make sure that enough oil is getting to the cooler.

[CassMori]

I need a temp sensor though to make sure that enough oil is getting to the cooler.

from my understanding of how the pressure bypass for the cooler works (I could be wrong), is that when it opens up, ALL of the oil goes there, bypasses the filter completely, and then dumps into the pan from the return. :dunno:

[SupraMikeCT]

from my understanding of how the pressure bypass for the cooler works (I could be wrong), is that when it opens up, ALL of the oil goes there, bypasses the filter completely, and then dumps into the pan from the return. :dunno:

^Both relief valves ( the 1 on the pump and the 1 on the filter bracket) on the GTE allow unfitered oil back to the pan with the one on the oil filter bracket first sending it thru the oil cooler before dumping back to the oil pan.
Only the amount of oil that EXCEEDS the spring pressure rating of the relief valve(s) is dumped back to the pan. The rest (below the relief valve setting) still circulates thru the engine.

[zz_denis]

I'd like to add that its very important to change oil a few times during the first weeks (months) of the rebuild. A good practice is to to start the engine for the very first time, let it warm up fully, shut it off and change the oil. Then change it again after about 30-50 miles of use. Then again after about 500-1000 miles. You might think its not nessesary to change the oil that often (esp after a warm up), but you'll be amazed by the number of small metal shavings and dust in the oil when you inspect it closely after that first warm up. Metal shavings are NOT good for bearings!!! (duh!)
Also NEVER use synthetic oil on a freshly rebuild engine during the first 1000-2000 miles, synthetic oil will now allow the rings to seat properly.

[CassMori]

^Both relief valves ( the 1 on the pump and the 1 on the filter bracket) on the GTE allow unfitered oil back to the pan with the one on the oil filter bracket first sending it thru the oil cooler before dumping back to the oil pan.
Only the amount of oil that EXCEEDS the spring pressure rating of the relief valve(s) is dumped back to the pan. The rest (below the relief valve setting) still circulates thru the engine.

but does it still go through the filter? i.e., all oil, <40 psi, goes through the filter, & the engine, then the rest (>40 psi) goes through the cooler and dumps to the pan?

[DeanMarcum]

Correct. There is no part of the mechanical 7M oil system which would allow oil to bypass the filter and enter the engine. Some filters have a bypass built into them so that once they become too "clogged" they bypass oil from the inlet to outlet directly but that is completely contained within the filter.

[polobai]

sorry to hijack, but just for us that do have oil temp guages, what is the ideal oil temp range? mine hovers between 150-190 f and usually only sees 190 when sitting in traffic. my sensor is in the oil pan a little above the oil drain plug if that has any effect.

[DeanMarcum]

Those are good temps. My oil sits around 180 (thermostat controlled with remote cooler) and up to 195 during a long hard run.

[polobai]

thanks for the info dean, gladly appreciated

[CassMori]

thanks for the info dean, gladly appreciated
:iwdumbass

[GrimJack]

Damn fine thread, lots of good info here. This should be in the FAQ.

[stallion]

so if you run the NA oil filter attachment to the block you will get more pressure? is this what everyone is saying? I am a little below 1 kg/cm2 at idle and ~2 or a little more at 2500 to 3000 rpm I would love to get more pressure but id rather not pull the engine to do that

Where is this spring in the filter bracket and can i get another one from toyota?

[CassMori]

so if you run the NA oil filter attachment to the block you will get more pressure? is this what everyone is saying? I am a little below 1 kg/cm2 at idle and ~2 or a little more at 2500 to 3000 rpm I would love to get more pressure but id rather not pull the engine to do that

Where is this spring in the filter bracket and can i get another one from toyota?

the NA filter fitting is for removal of the stock bypass setup, for use with filter relocation & aftermarket cooling solutions. I have heard that most people who do this get more pressure, not sure if it is solely from the NA fitting though.


Damn fine thread, lots of good info here. This should be in the FAQ. :agreed:

[stallion]

http://www.cygnusx1.net/supra/library/EPC/MKIII_NATO/291420/1503_1.html

so if i pick up part number 15132A and install it I should get better pressure? Please let me know I want to do anything I can to get better pressure

[DeanMarcum]

The stock turbo oil filter cooler bypass is a bit restrictive plus the fact that the oil is only cooled once pressure in the system reaches 40psi (depending on the spring you have). The 7M greatly benefits from running a full flow cooler with -10 lines. Using this setup the oil is always cooled down (you should also use an oil thermostat if it gets below 40 degrees where you live/drive). Replacing the stock oil cooler bypass with the N/A nipple, remote filter and oil cooler will greatly improve pressure and cooling. With that setup though you MUST use good lines and fittings as all of your oil pressure will be channeled through the system, one failed line or fitting and your motor looses all oil pressure.

[drjonez]

dean is the man.

[stallion]

so is that the spring??

[CassMori]

The stock turbo oil filter cooler bypass is a bit restrictive plus the fact that the oil is only cooled once pressure in the system reaches 40psi (depending on the spring you have). The 7M greatly benefits from running a full flow cooler with -10 lines. Using this setup the oil is always cooled down (you should also use an oil thermostat if it gets below 40 degrees where you live/drive). Replacing the stock oil cooler bypass with the N/A nipple, remote filter and oil cooler will greatly improve pressure and cooling. With that setup though you MUST use good lines and fittings as all of your oil pressure will be channeled through the system, one failed line or fitting and your motor looses all oil pressure.

what do you guys think of this guys parts, and the pricing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33661&item=7971277028&rd=1

seems kinda pricey, (I found the adapter & filter for ~100 less) but I haven't priced out any of the lines or fittings for this yet.

[sammydafish]

Those talking about running thicker oils like in the 50 range. Thicker isn't better either. You need the correct oil that will create the proper sized oil barrier at the designed operating temperature of the engine. Race teams run 50 weight oil because they spend a few hours at a time never dropping below the 6k mark. Therefore their engines run MUCH hotter that anything on the street.

Running to thick and oil means the oil will not flow as well, and therefore not lubricate as well. Higher pressure doesn't mean better. Throw some 80w90 gear oil in there and you'll get tons of pressure at your gauge, but your cams will be running dry.

Stick to the 5w30, 10w30 or 10w40 depending on your local climate. That's what Toyota specified, and no matter what you'd like to think, they are much smarter than you and I.

[DeanMarcum]

what do you guys think of this guys parts, and the pricing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33661&item=7971277028&rd=1

seems kinda pricey, (I found the adapter & filter for ~100 less) but I haven't priced out any of the lines or fittings for this yet.

That is actually a good price. Canton products are excellent. I run a Canton adapter off of the block. A B&M Super cooler will run you about $100.

Mine: (rough estimates from memory)
Canton block adapter: $50
Remote filter (not sure on the brand): $30
B&M Super Cooler: $95
Adapters: Straight (6) $36
Hose ends: striaght (4) $32
90 degree (2) $24
-10 hose: $50

So about $300 roughly in the system for me.

[DeanMarcum]

http://www.cygnusx1.net/supra/library/EPC/MKIII_NATO/291420/1503_1.html

so if i pick up part number 15132A and install it I should get better pressure? Please let me know I want to do anything I can to get better pressure

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how weak the spring is. You'd be better off replacing the entire system but the spring probably is pretty cheap and easy to swap.

[QWIKSTRIKE]

My relief spring in the filter mount has been shimmed and I see 60psi at higher rpm. This is with the stock gauge though so god knows how accurate it is. I need a temp sensor though to make sure that enough oil is getting to the cooler.


you mean the mount in the pump has ben shimmed dude. The bypas mount must stay closed or it will bleed off pressure. You are a bit confused there! :) :sadwavey:

[DeanMarcum]

you mean the mount in the pump has ben shimmed dude. The bypas mount must stay closed or it will bleed off pressure. You are a bit confused there! :) :sadwavey:

No, by adding shims behind the "screw on cover" (22mm IIRC) you increase the spring tension which raises the pressure at which the valve opens to bypass oil to the stock cooler.

[QWIKSTRIKE]

:)
Those talking about running thicker oils like in the 50 range. Thicker isn't better either. You need the correct oil that will create the proper sized oil barrier at the designed operating temperature of the engine. Race teams run 50 weight oil because they spend a few hours at a time never dropping below the 6k mark. Therefore their engines run MUCH hotter that anything on the street.

Running to thick and oil means the oil will not flow as well, and therefore not lubricate as well. Higher pressure doesn't mean better. Throw some 80w90 gear oil in there and you'll get tons of pressure at your gauge, but your cams will be running dry.

Stick to the 5w30, 10w30 or 10w40 depending on your local climate. That's what Toyota specified, and no matter what you'd like to think, they are much smarter than you and I.



Synthetic oil although good is thinner than conventional 10w40. So to run 15w50 or 20w50 synthetic is a good thing. Don't be mislead. Synthethic has the equivalency to conventional oil but the molecular viscosity is a little thinner. IT also flows well i the winter. Ive left 10w30 and 20w50 synthetic in the trunk during the winter and the 10w30 was like glue. The 15w50 synthetic mobile 1 was like water. Trust me on this or try it yourself next winter. Our oil pumps seem to like the thicker synthetic alot better. As for Toyota mechs being smarterr than me; Synthetic is being used now by many of the top high performance auto makers, and they didn't have a clue about how synthetics oils worked then. Also Take a highly modded supra to the toyota mechss and see how much they really know. :rolleyes: :blah:

[QWIKSTRIKE]

No, by adding shims behind the "screw on cover" (22mm IIRC) you increase the spring tension which raises the pressure at which the valve opens to bypass oil to the stock cooler.

I stand corrected thanks alot Dean. :sadwavey: :dunno: :)

[DeanMarcum]

No problem, it's a bass ackward system.

[QWIKSTRIKE]

No problem, it's a bass ackward system.


lol :wtflol: :bigthumb:

[lagged]

just had my 7m rebuilt, now have 1200 miles on the rebuild and so far so good.

i started up the motor, was told to let it idle for several hours?? this didnt seem right to me as the initial oil pressure would start low, and STAY low. so i drove it around for ~20 miles, then changed the oil.

i let it idle after the first start up for enough time it took me to check for oil leaks and to listen for any knocking.

i have gotten rid of the stock oil filter bracket and am using an oil filter relocation kit from summit.

my oil pressure at cruise is ~40 and when i get on it at a little more than half throttle oil pressure rises to above 40, about half way inbetween 40 and the next mark, whatever that is supposed to represent.

have been changing the oil after 20 miles, then 200 miles, then 500, and my next change is due as soon as i feel like driving over to napa to pick up some oil and another filer.

ive been running 10w40 non synthetic, every oil change the oil has been CLEAN. i have not seen any metal shaving and what not, this oil change i plan on taking a sample and sending the oil out for analysis.

i will be switching to synthetic oil, but not yet as i am loosing oil through the turbo. once i have the turbo rebuilt or replaced ill switch to some mobil 1.

[QWIKSTRIKE]

just had my 7m rebuilt, now have 1200 miles on the rebuild and so far so good.

i started up the motor, was told to let it idle for several hours?? this didnt seem right to me as the initial oil pressure would start low, and STAY low. so i drove it around for ~20 miles, then changed the oil.

i let it idle after the first start up for enough time it took me to check for oil leaks and to listen for any knocking.

i have gotten rid of the stock oil filter bracket and am using an oil filter relocation kit from summit.

my oil pressure at cruise is ~40 and when i get on it at a little more than half throttle oil pressure rises to above 40, about half way inbetween 40 and the next mark, whatever that is supposed to represent.

have been changing the oil after 20 miles, then 200 miles, then 500, and my next change is due as soon as i feel like driving over to napa to pick up some oil and another filer.

ive been running 10w40 non synthetic, every oil change the oil has been CLEAN. i have not seen any metal shaving and what not, this oil change i plan on taking a sample and sending the oil out for analysis.

i will be switching to synthetic oil, but not yet as i am loosing oil through the turbo. once i have the turbo rebuilt or replaced ill switch to some mobil 1.


N I C E. I still have that ic pipe do you want it still?

[Wu_Tang]

"12. get new oil filter adapter, or go relocation kit and inline thermostat and cooler. The old adpter has a relief valve, and spring which wears over the years. After 150-200k it must be replaced, or you do this again because of low oil pressure. After installing my kit my pressure rose 12psi"

what would you say is the best place to buy one?

[QWIKSTRIKE]

"12. get new oil filter adapter, or go relocation kit and inline thermostat and cooler. The old adpter has a relief valve, and spring which wears over the years. After 150-200k it must be replaced, or you do this again because of low oil pressure. After installing my kit my pressure rose 12psi"

what would you say is the best place to buy one?


Summit!

[90Legend]

Nice thread man. It is always great to present the info in that format.

One thing that wasn't mentioned (or if it was, I apolgize to the poster) are those kits that start pumping oil around once you key on the ignition.

http://www.autoenginelube.com/pages/903473/index.htm

Anybody using these and any thoughts?

Seems like it can't hurt. Are there any downsides?

Dan

[lagged]

N I C E. I still have that ic pipe do you want it still?

ill be at tonys on tuesday morning. you think youll be around?

[QWIKSTRIKE]

I ll be there early by 8:30-11:00am

[iheart6bangers]

POST! to subscribe...

[CassMori]

That is actually a good price. Canton products are excellent. I run a Canton adapter off of the block. A B&M Super cooler will run you about $100.

Mine: (rough estimates from memory)
Canton block adapter: $50
Remote filter (not sure on the brand): $30
B&M Super Cooler: $95
Adapters: Straight (6) $36
Hose ends: striaght (4) $32
90 degree (2) $24
-10 hose: $50

So about $300 roughly in the system for me.


Thanks, Dean, I wasn't sure about the pricing for the fittings/lines. I have a cooler already (C&R under radiator). You were right on with the Canton adapter, the filter he is selling runs ~75 from the place I was pricing stuff from (Racer Parts Wholesale). Any recommendations on the thermostat? (I'm looking at getting the PermaCool one, ~$49). Thanks for the help!

[flubyux2]

my comments are in bold type :bigthumb:


Well I hear many people talk of Getting rod knock after doing a engine rebuild. After doing a successfull rebuild, and then gettting knock I was a little worried. Well my knock was caused by a faulty oil pump drive shaft that caused a lack of oil.
It always seems to have a reason, but no one ever looks to themselves as the problem. Don't forget it all comes down to lubrication, machining, and poor assembleing. The bearings ride on a tiny film of oil. running rich, can cause poor lubricating problems. The gas runs past the rings and in to the oil making kerosene, this kills the bearings. Oil that is too hot can also cause bearing fatigue, and failure. Also running to thin of a viscosity, and poor filtering can contribute to bearing failure. Collectively the last problems mentioned can give a proper rebuild a knock. Let's look at what I see as things that can cause rod knock.

1. Faulty oiling system lack of oil, low oil pressure, not enough oil
2. Improper Machine work. i.e. poor tolerances Many machinist don't recognize that the specs must be very precise or there wll be failure
3. All components must be inspected for clearances, and in my opinion don't accept anything that is just within tolerance when it comes to rods.
4. crank must be cut and properly sized by a very reputable machinist. Ask questions you know the answers to. See if his answers match up to what must be done. No, the crank does not need to be cut in every case. micropolishing will put a very good surface on the journals and is very difficult to even remove 0.001" from polishing.
5. get good bearings. Clevites are fine but they are reboxed and are farmed out to other bearing companies. My mains were made by global, and my rod bearings made by NDC. They came in a clevite77 box. Call them and ask them if you dont believe me. They don't always use the same companies I hear. I also am told that the ndc bearings are .001 of an inch unersized. I hear that ACL are great and is moslty used in the MKIV's along side of clevite77's. This is your choice choose wisely! :blah: :stickpoke
6. Get new rods, or get them cut and resized no matter what! New they ar 36.00 cut they are 15.00 per rod. Arps cost 40.00 and are an option for added insurance. Dont get new rods, just have them check for twist and bend. have the small and big ends checked for concentricity. if you keep stock bolts (i dont recommend), the big end does Not need resized/honed. If you use New/ARP bolts (i do recommend, the big end MUST, i say MUST, be resized/honed. this process should include, assembling rod and torquing bolts, hone, disasemble, reassemble, retorque, rehone just to ensure repeatability
7. use boots or tape to keep rod bolts from damageing crank!
8. use moly asembly lube that the machinist will give for free. Mine does.
9. DON'T mix end caps, and rods! this will cause knock! some of you don't know this, and after hearing "It knocked after staring" this is my guess a good reason why it knocked. Then you blame the car for your error.
10. after rods areinstalled in the block use a good torque wrench and torque to spec of factory or arp spec reccomendations,and use plastigauge to check clearance ideally, ARP fasters should be torqued down to ARP's specifications, not stock specs. ARP specs are designed around THEIR materials and THEIR parts quality. torque specs are sufficient for rod bolts but should be "torqued" using a rod bolt stretch guage to get the best results
11. Never put in an old oil pump unless you want to do this again! :dunno: you can reuse an old oil pump if the internal clearances are within factory spec and works smoothly
12. get new oil filter adapter, or go relocation kit and inline thermostat and cooler. The old adpter has a relief valve, and spring which wears over the years. After 150-200k it must be replaced, or you do this again because of low oil pressure. After installing my kit my pressure rose 12psi. :bigthumb:
13. Properly tune the engine especially when upping fuel pressure, and adding bigger turbos! :rolleyes: :wtflol:
14. Keep oil levels filled as mentioned by Drjonzes, add an extra quart! :) this s a good idea for anyone who does not fix the oil pump pickup tube as outlined in my Oil system fix thread. i would recommend readjusting the oil pump pickup head height however, as this is permanent and trying to keep your motor overfilled isnt.

When done correctly this procedure will give you a great knock free engine until you run low on oil. :dunno:

If I have left anything out be sure to chime in. :) :hug:
Anthony

[QWIKSTRIKE]

"14. Keep oil levels filled as mentioned by Drjonzes, add an extra quart!

]this s a good idea for anyone who does not fix the oil pump pickup tube as outlined in my Oil system fix thread. [/I] "]i would recommend readjusting the oil pump pickup head height however, as this is permanent and trying to keep your motor overfilled isnt. "[/I]


Unless those lines are teflon your thread may have a flaw. Rubber hoses in that heat run the risk of deteriorating ,and losing pressure. Can anyone say rod knock! It should be done in steel IMHO to prevent a break or fatigue which will be a problem. Lowering the head is an option but 99.999% of the people won't do this! However it is a good idea if you want to do this!


" you can reuse an old oil pump if the internal clearances are within factory spec and works smoothly"

If the pump is less than 50k maybe, but why open up the block for major work to have to take it out for a pump that is old and itching to fail 50k later. Do it right the first time and be safe. Why have to pull the motor for a 150.00 pump on line "btw" which is made by asin. The labor alone will save the future headache. If you are into temporary fixes go ahead and do it 2x! Don't forget to DIY'ers if you don't have a lift pulling that block again for a oil pump repair is a bitch. Paying for a lift and a new pump later is also unnescessary future expense! :dunno:

10. after rods areinstalled in the block use a good torque wrench and torque to spec of factory or arp spec reccomendations,and use plastigauge to check clearance ideally, ]ARP fasters should be torqued down to ARP's specifications, not stock specs. ARP specs are designed around THEIR materials and THEIR parts quality. torque specs are sufficient for rod bolts but should be "torqued" using a rod bolt stretch guage to get the best results[/I]

Your statement is true, but redundant that is why I have factory specs or arp specs listed. Since I said arp's are an option I listed both ways! :dunno:


Dont get new rods, just have them check for twist and bend. have the small and big ends checked for concentricity. if you keep stock bolts (i dont recommend), the big end does Not need resized/honed. If you use New/ARP bolts (i do recommend, the big end MUST, i say MUST, be resized/honed. this process should include, assembling rod and torquing bolts, hone, disasemble, reassemble, retorque, rehone just to ensure repeatability

Sounds to me like you are reinventing the wheel here; since it was already mentioned either get new rods or get them cut. I suggest gettting them cut but when taking to a good machinist they will adress this decision of new rods or cutting! IF th car has high mileage cut them all and have them set to factory specs. Again 15.00 a rod is good insurance for those bearings seating properly in the rods and makes sure of a tight factory spec for oil clearances. Since we have a sensitive oil system not cutting them is a cheap way of going in again! Little things like being off a few thousandths of and inch means alot to spinning a bearing later due to fatigue or wear! When I saw the way the rods were worn even though they were within tolerance, You are putting in new rod bearings, and for tight clearances you DON'T want just within tolerance, because a little wear will put you outside of tolerance, causeing you to have to go for a rebuild say at 50k-100k rather than 100k-150k. Wear is wear, and haveing worn rods will cause a earlier failure down the road. Their is no way around a good rebuild that will last or to have a temporary fix because things that were just within tolerance wore out earlier than everything that was precisely replaced!Many times I have heard people say I had everything done yet I still got knock. If those rods weren't set to specs that is the culprit. Those rod ends must be perfectly round and precise for new bearings to stay seated! :blah: :)


I say this to be respectful ! :bigthumb:

[adjuster]

Nice thread.
Just a few things I've found out while doing the oil mods to my Stroked 7MGTE.

I took the idea of changing the cross over pipe to AN fittings and line a step further and actually machined out the pump for a AN10 to BSP 20x1.5 mm 90 fitting. Then AN10 lines to the other side of the block, and a larger AN10 to BSP fitting again.
*** Note of caution.*** If you go this route, do not use 1/2" NPT compression fittings on this point in the block. By the time you machine/tap the threads, there is very little material left, and I cracked the block here. We ended up having to machine down to the web for a BSP O-Ring straight type fitting. This puts very little stress on the block, and should not crack the stock one like the compression type fitting did. (Stock is a compression fitting too, so be careful there.)
The huge change was to tap and plug the passage that feeds the oil fiter mount area. This small hole is not used anymore on my engine. The block off plate hole is tapped for a 1/2" NPT fitting to AN10, and that directly feeds my filter and cooler setup.
Basicly, I have two AN10 fittings sticking out of the block. One at the block off plate location, and a BSP 20x1.5mm O-Ring fitting where the oil filter to galley would normally go. (The NA adapter screws in there usually.)
The reason for this insane behavior was to ensure that from the pump to the galley, only AN10 sized lines/fittings were used, and no restrictions were created by necking down the lines. (Only the oil cooler might be a small deal, and I'm looking at re-tapping those fittings to BSP 20x1.5mm if I need to so there is no restriction there either.) The RX7 cooler is huge, and I can't see that it's going to be restrictive at all if I can get the fittings correct.
The Canton/Mecca filter is about as good as you can find. (Filters down to 8microns, and is non-bypassing with a depth filter, so you have full flow all the time.)
Also I'm using the stock cooler dump at the pan to return oil from the bypass filter I've added. This one is from Oil Guard, and catches particles down to the 1micron range. This filter has a 1mm restriction, so it will not cause undue loss of pressure, and is tapped directly into one of the oil galley plug holes as a source.
The final part is the 3qt Canton Accusump and electronic pressure valve sitting over the entire system. It will pre-lube on startup, is very quick to refil with this valve, and I should never have a loss of pressure due to the oil pump pickup being uncovered no matter how I drive. (at least 3 quarts of oil will be ready to be pushed into the motor bevore it runs dry.)

Bearing clearance wise, the plasti gauge indicated the bearings for the rods and mains were all in the middle of the spec range indicated by the TSRM. I really wanted them to be tighter, but the shop I'm working with was actually concerned that in a high performance engine, that I'm too tight now as it is. The clearance was 1.5 thousands.

Anyone think that's too large? I also noticed that the bearings seem to be designed to have more clearance in the middle, and less at the edges. I did some reasearch, and found this to be normal too, but at the edges where the oil will "leak" out back into the pan, the clearance is more like .8 to 1.0, and there is a .5 channel down the middle of the bearings. They say on rod bearings, this helps to keep the oil film better supplied at high RPM. These are Clevite bearings. (Boxed anyway. Also every bearing I looked at had clevite stamped into the back of it.)
I coated the bearings with molydisulfied, and that coating added about 1k. I'm glad I did now seeing how the clearances have worked out. (Also the coating is supposed to be good to reduce friction, and protect the bearing surface if there is any metal to metal contact, it will be crank to molydisulfied at this point.)

Rods are new, bushings are new from Pauter too. (Second time around is the charm right?)
I polished the big end thrust surfaces on the rods, and coated them with TSX, a dry film lubricant too. Bushings are coated with TSX, as are the piston bores, lifters/shims, valve guides and a host of moving parts on this engine.
Pistons are fully coated, thermal on top, moly on sides, and thermal dispersant on the undersides. Head is coated the same way with coatings to either disperse, or contain/control the heat. Intake ditto.

Should be interesting to see how/if this motor runs :)

Oh, the oil pump bypass is shimmed out with a nut and 2 washers, for about 9mm of distance. I'm shooting for 20+ at idle, and 80ish tops at redline.

Motor should be capable of very high limits, but I guess I'll find out when it's running again.

[SupraMikeCT]

The stock turbo oil filter cooler bypass is a bit restrictive plus the fact that the oil is only cooled once pressure in the system reaches 40psi (depending on the spring you have)...........

^ So does the relief valve on the oil filter bracket open before the relief valve on the pump? Is there a difference in the relief valve spring tensions that allows one to open before the other? Say one opens at 40 and the other at 50 psi?
What if you were to pipe the turbo oil RETURN line that currently connects back to the block thru the stock oil cooler all the time and than plug the port on the oil filter bracket where the line currently goes to the cooler? This return oil from the turbo bearing goes right back to the pan anyways, RIGHT? so there would be no psi loss as with the current set-up when the relief valve opens. :dunno:
Any thoughts/ ideas on this? Thanks

~ mike

[flubyux2]

quiki, i gotcha man.

i wouldnt go in there and just say "Cut my rods", they will tell you "uh, well we are going to check them for straightness and twist and the big ends for concentricity. if they are out of spec, we will rehone them or straighten them for you" but if they dont need cut, dont have them cut.

not everyone knows that arp specs are completely different than stock specs. some people will use the wrong specs on the wrong fastener.

there really is nothing wrong w/ reusing a stock oil pump if the backlash and clearances are all in spec. thats like saying "replace youre gearset when you change an LSD". if the wear pattern on the current gearset is accurate and withins spec and doesnt have excessive tolerances, its safe to reuse. ive never heard of an actual oil pump failing. ive heard of some that were worn and replaced. but all the oil pump related failures seemed to be due to the oil pump driveshaft bearings and seals. if you have the block hot tanked, you WILL need to replace the oil pump DS bearings... i didnt think of it till my machinest reminded me. i forewent the hot tank and just put some Purplepower and labor into my block and detailed it by hand.

also, teflon hoses are JIC and only commonly found in the smaller diameters. the average AN hose is neoprene and is designed to withstand hot oils and other petrol products. so having hot oil inside and out is not supposed to be detrimental, by design. after all, the hose is supposed to be used for all fluid transfer systems based around petrol products. the only downside to a teflon hose is that they need to have the ends crimped/swaged on and that they collapse when trying to make even remotely tight bends. i already tried to do a teflon hose and found that it wouldnt work for what i was trying to do.

when i build my "bad mother fucker" motor, ill be using pauters and JE's... but my budget rebuild is going to use stock rods w/ ARP's. afterall, shotpeend stock rods w/ ARP's are good for 800rwhp ;)

[QWIKSTRIKE]

^^^^^^agreed flubyux2! :) :bigthumb:

[RacerXJ220]

what kind of assembly lube?

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Moly assembly lube is great stuff. I usually get it for free from my machine shop. They have lots of it he says and is happy to give me asamuch as I need for free. If they are doing the wrk just ask them to drop some in a cop for you. If they are as accomodating as my machinist they will be happy to. I guess if you need to buy it go toa machine shop that builds engines and order some; However I think the guys doing your worlk will give it for free.

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Damn fine thread, lots of good info here. This should be in the FAQ.


I agree with this statement grimjack. I see a rod knock thread there but it has nothing as detailed and I am getting lots of pms and questions. Those questions should be asked publicly so when adressed people will learn. I have answered many of your questions in pm, and feel you shuold not be afraid toask in this thread because it will be one of those questions that someone else needs an answer to but is a little afraid to ask! Moderators do us a favor and sticky or FAQ this.

Anthony

[flubyux2]

+1, listen to us, we are famous and carry clout! sticky please ;)

[QWIKSTRIKE]

+1, listen to us, we are famous and carry clout! sticky please ;)


:wtflol: :blah: I'm famous damn it! LOL There is a need for all of us to learn something or add something to this thread! Hopefully this will keep the "It knocked after I started it" remarks away. To be famous is not my idea for writing this for sure.


Anthony

[flubyux2]

lol. no, everyone does need to check ths shit out. i see too many people being afflicited w/ this problem due to negligence on their part.

and we're just famous because we are notorious and have high post counts! lol, i kid, i kid. Jayson and i joke about this all the time too. it never gets old...

[QWIKSTRIKE]

quiki, i gotcha man.

i wouldnt go in there and just say "Cut my rods", they will tell you "uh, well we are going to check them for straightness and twist and the big ends for concentricity. if they are out of spec, we will rehone them or straighten them for you" but if they dont need cut, dont have them cut.
not everyone knows that arp specs are completely different than stock specs. some people will use the wrong specs on the wrong fastener.

there really is nothing wrong w/ reusing a stock oil pump if the backlash and clearances are all in spec. thats like saying "replace youre gearset when you change an LSD". if the wear pattern on the current gearset is accurate and withins spec and doesnt have excessive tolerances, its safe to reuse. ive never heard of an actual oil pump failing. ive heard of some that were worn and replaced. but all the oil pump related failures seemed to be due to the oil pump driveshaft bearings and seals. if you have the block hot tanked, you WILL need to replace the oil pump DS bearings... i didnt think of it till my machinest reminded me. i forewent the hot tank and just put some Purplepower and labor into my block and detailed it by hand.

also, teflon hoses are JIC and only commonly found in the smaller diameters. the average AN hose is neoprene and is designed to withstand hot oils and other petrol products. so having hot oil inside and out is not supposed to be detrimental, by design. after all, the hose is supposed to be used for all fluid transfer systems based around petrol products. the only downside to a teflon hose is that they need to have the ends crimped/swaged on and that they collapse when trying to make even remotely tight bends. i already tried to do a teflon hose and found that it wouldnt work for what i was trying to do.

when i build my "bad mother fucker" motor, ill be using pauters and JE's... but my budget rebuild is going to use stock rods w/ ARP's. afterall, shotpeend stock rods w/ ARP's are good for 800rwhp ;)


I have learned the best way to have the best oil pressure is to have all rods cut to zero tolerance. After doing a rebuild and havein a few within tolerance is a no no for a 7mgte. That few thousandths within spec tolerance can really cuase future wear and low oil pressure. Never EVER put rods in that are not set to 0 factory tolerence. I have 60 psi when i cruise with the crank cut properly and rods set to zero tolerance and a shimmed oil pump and relocation kit.;)

[BlackDevilSupra]

Zero "0" Tolerance? Uhmmmm :scratch:
There is no hard or defined number for the bearing gap, instead there is a spec'ed range. So now, how can one get "0" tolerance on a specified range? Do you mean you set you gap to the low side, mid point, or high side of the range?
Just an enquiring engineer that needs some elaboration on your definition for "Zero Tolerance".



I have learned the best way to have the best oil pressure is to have all rods cut to zero tolerance. ..... crank cut properly and rods set to zero tolerance ...)

[malloynx]

i think he was refurring to to the lowest tolerance allowed. (ex.. rod bearings .0018) .0018 would be the 0 tolerence..

i will disagree with that though. toyota puts out a range and as long as you are in that range you will be fine.

my rods are at .0021 and the car runs fines. were talking about splitting hairs here.

[flubyux2]

Maybe he was talking about Toyotas numering system for bearing sizes? i know you can order specific size bearings for exact journal measurments.

[Supramickey]

Good engine prep ,Regular servicing , Keep your oil level just above the max mark ......NEVER rev the engine hard until its reached full operating temp .

[flubyux2]

ive found about 1.5cm above the full mark is quite good.

i think everyone needs to reset the oil pump pickup height like i posted about back earlier this year. this would fix most of the problems that people have w/ oil starvation and rod bearing things.

[QWIKSTRIKE]

One of the most missed diagnosed rod knock problems that I have encountered personally is.....Management. Guys when you upgrade the fuel, and add large turbos, and don't go stand alone I believe the possibility for detonation and rod knock go hand in hand, and increases. The detonation is hammering the crank and berings. I had a little ticking this winter and found that all that detonation from poor tuning hammered the number 6 rod, and I had to swap in a new bering. Since I had dropped the frame, and pan I changed all of them. The on going saga of a rod knock life lol. The last nail in the coffin to end and minimize rod knock is tuning, tuning, tuning. Going stand alone will help minimize the variables that vpc and emanage or any other piggy backs wont adjust for like cold weather. Blackdevilsupra can tell you about this first hand. Even a properly tuned car can't adjust for a very cold day, and change and maintain a proper 12:1 AFR in different climates.

[drjonez]

One of the most missed diagnosed rod knock problems that I have encountered personally is.....Management. Guys when you upgrade the fuel, and add large turbos, and don't go stand alone I believe the possibility for detonation and rod knock go hand in hand, and increases. The detonation is hammering the crank and berings. I had a little ticking this winter and found that all that detonation from poor tuning hammered the number 6 rod, and I had to swap in a new bering. Since I had dropped the frame, and pan I changed all of them. The on going saga of a rod knock life lol. The last nail in the coffin to end and minimize rod knock is tuning, tuning, tuning. Going stand alone will help minimize the variables that vpc and emanage or any other piggy backs wont adjust for like cold weather. Blackdevilsupra can tell you about this first hand. Even a properly tuned car can't adjust for a very cold day, and change and maintain a proper 12:1 AFR in different climates.

very good info....too bad no one will really take it to heart.... :faint:

[QWIKSTRIKE]

very good info....too bad no one will really take it to heart.... :faint:


Thanks Doc...You were also one of the key contributors to this thread as well! All I can say is dont boost the hell out of your car before getting a dyno. This is the dyno chart that showed what was going on before I was dynoing. BTW I found there was a boost leak on the turbo to IC out let during this dyno. The Clamp was so tight it collasped the Aluminum IC pipe a little. Oh well This year is a new beggining. The run was at 15psi...



http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a287/chevyeater/IM000577.jpg

[flubyux2]

people need to take it to heart.... unless they like swapping rod bearings. that is to say, if they can catch it in time before it starts to eat up the crank. even fuel managment is helpful, but no replacment for full ignition managment too. i would LOVE to make the first mod on my car an AEM so i can keep everything on the up and up.

[QWIKSTRIKE]

people need to take it to heart.... unless they like swapping rod bearings. that is to say, if they can catch it in time before it starts to eat up the crank. even fuel managment is helpful, but no replacment for full ignition managment too. i would LOVE to make the first mod on my car an AEM so i can keep everything on the up and up.


No more needs to be said on thsi one from anotehr post contributor! :)

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Another point that I think should be made known is that taking the block and crank to a good machine shop is the ultimate way to get berings sized. You must ask the machinist to measure each main, and main crank jounal specificly to make sure that the clearances are precise, rather than getting the whole thing cut to one size say like -10. This way the machinist can leave enough material on the crank for areas a little off. Also check to see if the mains need to be align hone.

[Kevin Johnson]

Correct. There is no part of the mechanical 7M oil system which would allow oil to bypass the filter and enter the engine. Some filters have a bypass built into them so that once they become too "clogged" they bypass oil from the inlet to outlet directly but that is completely contained within the filter.

Hi Dean,

Old thread but an important one. I was told that filters with an internal bypass will begin to flow a percentage of unfiltered oil above around 20-30psi.