Comprehensive review of MKIV SupraTT VS Z32 300zxTT analysis phase I: 1st impressions [Archive] - Supraforums.com

: Comprehensive review of MKIV SupraTT VS Z32 300zxTT analysis phase I: 1st impressions



flyboyzack
10-28-2006, 06:24 PM
Phase I: Initial impressions and experiences.

Like I said before, I don't want to start a flame war, I am just comparing two of my favorite cars. It's almost like a dream come true!!! Just a little tid-bit of info...The Supra is almost stock (BPU upgrades), while the Z has a lengthy list of mods (see sig), so take that into consideration. Note these are my OPINIONS!!!!

Looks: Here are some pics of the two cars....

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06017-1.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06016-1.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06014.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06010.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06006.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06027.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06030.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06012.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06004.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06002.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/flyboyzack/10-29-06007.jpg

Overall, I like the looks of the Z better. I think it has much cleaner lines and the front end looks waaaay more aggressive, like a true sports car, while the Supras front end looks bland. I like the Supras tailights better. I tend to prefer the interior of the Supra over the Z, but only by a small margin. The materials overall seem to be of better quality in the Supra, and the dash makes a "cockpit" which is really cool IMO. It really seems to engulf the driver. The seating position is more aggressiver with the Supra. The armrests are a little awkward on the Supra. The seats in the Supra are very comfortable (I know I just did a 15 hour drive in them), but I like the Z's aftermarket seats a little better because they are memory foam and really "cradle" you in tight.

Reliability: Both cars are fairly reliable, although the Z seems to have more "quirks" associated with it. The engine bay of the Z is VERY cramped, even after removing a lot of stuff and installing an e-fan, while the Supra is MUCH less intimidating to turn wrenches on. The engine bay has a lot more space to get your hands in tight places, which is always a plus. Upgrading the Supra seems to be a lot easier, as with the Z to put new turbos on you have to pull the motor!!!

Power: Well the Z dominates in this category as I thought, because it is putting down around 500whp at 22PSI while the Supra is putting down 350-400whp at 14PSI (soon to be raised to 18PSI). The Supra has no lag (sequintial turbo setup), while the Z is laggier, but is very streetable. I don't like how the Supra has this transition period between the first and second turbo spooling up, it feels like it looses power for a second, and after the second turbo spools up, you're good. My buddy and I did a highway pull at around 40-120, and the Supra got ahead by a few car lengths at first, and once the Z's turbos got spooled up quickly caught up with the Supra. He also kept missing gears as well. I believe with the boost raised to 18PSI, the Supra will give the Z a run for it's money.

Braking: The Supra seems to stop quicker although the brakes are harder to push. The Z's brakes have a better "feel" but I think the Supra will stop quicker. Both have stock brakes, except the Z has SS lines and slotted stock diameter rotors.

Handling/overall driving experience: Man the Supra feels like a TANK compared to the Z. The Z is more nimble and feels lighter on it's feet and probably is lighter by a couple hundred pounds. Steering is a little tighter on the Z, although it has a small aftermarket steering wheel. The Supra leans more into hard cornering, although both cars have good grip in the corners. The Supra rides a lot more "cushy" while the Z you can feel every bump. The Supra rides more like a tourer, while the Z rides like an aggressive sports car. The Z has a little more road noise. The Supra feels much more comfortable for long trips, as the Z will probably beat the Supra in an autocross match. I like the way the Z sounds over the Supra, it seems to have a deeper tone and more aggressive sound to it. The Z sucks down more gas than the Supra.

Transmission: Supra wins, hands down. The extra gear is nice to keep the power where you want it. The Z has shorter throws (it has a short throw shifter), and I like where the shifter is located a little bit better on the Z. The Supra's 6sp is supposed to be able to handle more power than the Z's, which has a history of weak syncros.

Power potential: This can be debated, but the 2JZ-GTE motor seems to be stronger from the factory than the VG30ETT. The inline design is great for a large single turbo setup, in which a large single turbo is more efficient than two smaller turbos. There are more big power Supras out there than the Z's, and making power "seems" to be easier by the general opinion of the populace.

Tops: I like the targa top better, but it is a PITA to take off, while the Z's tops come off very quickly and easily.

Value: For what all you're getting the Z is a better value hands down. For the money, you just can't get the level or performance for the price by having the Supra. The Supras have a bigger demand, so resale value is probably better.

Take these results with a grain of salt and an open mind, as these are my first impressions and OPINIONS!!! Both are awesome cars with pros and cons of each one. Thoughts or comments are welcome!!!!

Bullseye
10-28-2006, 06:43 PM
Put your opinions in the "General" section :rolleyes:

Hands On
10-28-2006, 06:47 PM
Let's hear back after the 4 psi increase, and give us a mod list (manufactorer specific) for the Supra. Your a lucky man. Maybe a truck next?

Lagtime
10-28-2006, 07:08 PM
The picture of the Supra's engine shows the stock bypass (BOV) removed and a black cylinder in it's place. If that black cylinder is solid you're fine, but if it has a hole in it allowing compressed air to recirculate back into the turbo compressor's then you are not.

MtFujiSupra
10-28-2006, 07:14 PM
This is a good post even though it's a little "apples to oranges". Of course, we can always re-read 1993 Motor Trend to get a more on-par comparison. I have a neighbor who has a Z32 sitting in his garge with kid toys on top of it. It's nice and he thinks it's a collectors car. He sees me driving my Supra everyday and thinks it's over-rated and not very pretty. I agree with him but the big difference is I can still get my money back out of it at any moment. His Z will take some time to sell. I really wish he would sell it to me, however, because it is as much a part of Japanese car history as the Supra.

flyboyzack
10-28-2006, 07:41 PM
The picture of the Supra's engine shows the stock bypass (BOV) removed and a black cylinder in it's place. If that black cylinder is solid you're fine, but if it has a hole in it allowing compressed air to recirculate back into the turbo compressor's then you are not.

Oh really? I just got my Supra, could you enlighten the noob on this matter??? :)

IndiShukla
10-28-2006, 07:46 PM
Great review but i think it would be fair if they both were at the same power level ie: the supra was also @ 500hp that way you could have a fair margin for both cars.
However otherwise nice little review! :D

Deusdeceptor
10-28-2006, 08:02 PM
Quote: The seats in the Supra are very comfortable (I know I just did a 15 hour drive in them), but I like the Z's aftermarket seats a little better because they are memory foam and really "cradle" you in tight.




Your post doesnt make sense.. Cant you switch the AM seats onto the supra and experience the "cradle"?

You did the same thing about the front bumper. With an aftermarket bumper (to each his own) like yours of course it "can" look more aggressive than a stock supra.

You did the same thing with the stainless steel brakeline comment..

if you are gonna compare 1 thing to another, try to attempt to compare it fairly.

Lagtime
10-28-2006, 08:05 PM
Oh really? I just got my Supra, could you enlighten the noob on this matter??? :)

Standing at the front of the car looking at the engine:

1. The side of the "cylinder" that is closest to the front is connected to pressurized air from the 2 turbos (that's what the aluminum "Y" pipe is for, combining the outputs of the twins).

2. The other side dumps pressurized air back in after the MAF but before the compressor side of the turbos.

The stock bypass valve went there originally. It is closed under boost, opens when you let off the gas. Vacuum from the intake manifold pulls the valve open allowing pressurized air to recirculate.

It's just a recirculated blow-off valve.

If the tube replacing the bypass valve is open then pressurized air is free to recirculate all the time, instead of ending up in the intake manifold on it's way to being combusted.

flyboyzack
10-28-2006, 08:29 PM
Quote: The seats in the Supra are very comfortable (I know I just did a 15 hour drive in them), but I like the Z's aftermarket seats a little better because they are memory foam and really "cradle" you in tight.




Your post doesnt make sense.. Cant you switch the AM seats onto the supra and experience the "cradle"?

You did the same thing about the front bumper. With an aftermarket bumper (to each his own) like yours of course it "can" look more aggressive than a stock supra.

You did the same thing with the stainless steel brakeline comment..

if you are gonna compare 1 thing to another, try to attempt to compare it fairly.


Yeah, I see your point. This really isn't an apples to apples comparison I know. I could put all the same parts on the Supra and make the Supra equivalent as well.

Oh about the seats...I think the Supras stock seats are more comfortable for the long trips, but the Z's aftermarket seats cradle the driver perfectly and feel more sporty and the memory foam is awesome. I know, I could put these same seats in the Supra. I think the Supra did DAMN good considering it's BPU, while the Z has a TON of mods.

SCoupe 5sp
10-28-2006, 10:14 PM
With respect to the engine, it sure sounds like the Supra's potential has hardly been scratched and the Z is closer to is limits.

JDAM
10-28-2006, 10:26 PM
You basically just told us that the Supra is more reliable, has better braking, better transmission, better top, and better power potential but the Z is a better value in your opinion. :rofl:

Just wait until you start modding the Supra more and you will see the light.

Ranger498
10-28-2006, 10:46 PM
well ill have to diagree here.

when i was looking to get a z back in 1997 i went and took one for a test drive:) the test drive alone turned me off on the car :(

1) they did a poor attemp to copy the inside of a porsche 928s4
2) the tweed look and feel was just plain cheesey
3) the car felt heavy
4) braking was poor (well to me)
6)hica (or what ever it was called) felt odd to me
7) the fact the car had no room in the back for much things was a turn off.

funny too my friend has a 300zx for sale at his shop and i went to take a look at it to mabe purchase it and again i felt the same way as i did back in 1997 about the car, i was thinking " man this car just sucks still"



I ended up getting a 1992 steath R/T turbo back then and even thow it was not a great car I honestly did like it way more than the Z off the bat and i did have fun moding her.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/mkivs2/12032001stealth3.jpg

also i think you have to much going on with the front of your 300zx (hood ,front bumper and all )..i dont like it im not sure if its the angle or what .
but thats just me!

please dont think im making fun of you car .

supras=sanity
10-28-2006, 10:59 PM
With respect to the engine, it sure sounds like the Supra's potential has hardly been scratched and the Z is closer to is limits.

I agree, there are 1500hp supras out there. I've never heard of a Z even breaking 1000hp. I don't follow Z to closely though. I test drove one years back and just was not impressed. The car felt generic to me.

flyboyzack
10-28-2006, 11:37 PM
There has been one Z here in the states, and a few in Japan to break the 1000rwhp barrier, but it's very, very rare. I'm planning on putting the stock nose cover on the Z because I think the front end is "too" aggressive as well. I think if my Z wasn't soooooo modded out, if wouldn't even really compare to the Supra in terms of performance. I can't wait to start exploring the Supra world more :).

jsd-zx
10-29-2006, 01:45 AM
I agree, there are 1500hp supras out there. I've never heard of a Z even breaking 1000hp. I don't follow Z to closely though. I test drove one years back and just was not impressed. The car felt generic to me.

http://www.z32power.com/6910922117593/site/default.asp

flyboyzack
10-29-2006, 01:41 AM
http://www.z32power.com/6910922117593/site/default.asp

Thanks, Bot!!

BLITZSUPRA
10-29-2006, 07:40 AM
Considering what tasteful cosmetic upgrades can do for a CLEAN Supra, I think it makes the Z look ricey compared to the Supra's exotic appeal.

Come back when the Supra has a small single with 500+ RWHP on stock fuel and compare the power then. :1poke: Regarding the stock suspension and sways, the Supra was overly soft from the factory, although it still outhandled the stock Z when they were originally compared. The Supra does at least deserve upgrade dshocks/springs + sways to keep up with the power it can easily make though.

Also if someone has a garage kept cream puff Z, what is it worth, $16,000 instead of $11,000? :ugh2:

Ryan P
10-29-2006, 10:46 AM
This is a really bad comparison. YOu have a highly modded Z vs. an essentially stock Supra.

Does your Z have aftermarket suspension? I'm sure the aftermarket wheels give it a better feel too. Again, apples to oranges.

Speaking from experience, the brakes are not comparable on these cars. The stock Z's brakes are the shittiest brakes evar. Try driving both cars full tilt a few laps around a race course and see which ones you like best. YOu won't be so concerned about feel, but rather if they stop the car or not.

Also, even though the Z "feels" lighter, it is most definitely not lighter, especially 200lbs. They are very close to the same weight stock, with the Z being the heavier one.


A for effort, but F for content.

Silver Supra
10-29-2006, 11:48 AM
Well, I think the comparison was as fair as he could make it. He has these two cars (lucky guy) at the trim levels he explained. The difference in mods will certainly make a difference and some of what he posted is, as he said, his opinion.
Now, a few more mods on the Supra will remove any favor to the Z as to power, and you can put in whatever seats you want.
More power to you..........literally!

flyboyzack
10-29-2006, 11:49 AM
Speaking from experience, the brakes are not comparable on these cars. The stock Z's brakes are the shittiest brakes evar. Try driving both cars full tilt a few laps around a race course and see which ones you like best. YOu won't be so concerned about feel, but rather if they stop the car or not.

LOL, you're right. The Z's brake are really shitty stock, and don't even compare to the Supras, although the crossdrilled rotors, ceramic pads, and SS brake lines help it a little, they're still not as good as the Supras.

Yes I know, this is an apples to oranges comparison, but was just giving my opinions of my two cars. The Z has just about every aftermarket peice when it comes to suspension, so it's no wonder it handles better.

If the Supra had all the same mods as the Z, I believe the results would be VASTLY different.

Kagetsu
10-30-2006, 05:40 AM
Hmmm. Stock for stock, I found the Supra to outhandle the 300ZX. The 300ZX certainly sits firmer, but the Supra when driven properly outshines it by miles. Hell, it outshines the GTR Skyline as well (R33).

braddman
10-30-2006, 08:54 AM
Not to rain on your parade but this review isn't really that helpful. The cars have been out long enough for people to know what each ones potential is, and comparing a 22psi to a 13psi I car with the 22psi car winning >>?????

SYONARA
10-30-2006, 10:28 AM
I owned a 1990 300zxtt (auto) for 5 years (90-95) I put on lots of mods, the car ran 13.28@105 w/stock turbo's.

In my first test drive of a stock TT Supra, I was like HOLY SHIT!, this thing moves! I sold my 300zxtt and went on to buy that same Supra I test drove.

The first week I owned my Supra all I installed was a K-N cone filter went to the track and ran 13.72@107.5mph. Needless to say I haven't looked back. BUT , I have great memories of my 300zxtt, and still love those cars.:)

TheTwinZ
10-30-2006, 03:56 PM
I owned a 1990 300zxtt (auto) for 5 years (90-95) I put on lots of mods, the car ran 13.28@105 w/stock turbo's.

In my first test drive of a stock TT Supra, I was like HOLY SHIT!, this thing moves! I sold my 300zxtt and went on to buy that same Supra I test drove.

The first week I owned my Supra all I installed was a K-N cone filter went to the track and ran 13.72@107.5mph. Needless to say I haven't looked back. BUT , I have great memories of my 300zxtt, and still love those cars.:)


There's a 90 300ZX TT Auto running 10.95@125mph on stock turbos (with NOS)...Mid 11's w/o NOS.

You just need a couple of mods to get into the 12's, so I guess there was something wrong with your Z, that's all.

SYONARA
10-30-2006, 07:15 PM
Trust me,nothing was wrong with my car I loved it, just back in the early to mid 90's there really wasn't that many options to go that fast ,now there are tons more "affordable" go fast parts available.

I was only comparing performance of my modded 300zxtt to that of my basically stock Supra.

Also I think I could have cracked the 12 second zone,due to the fact that I had a heavy ass sub enclosure (all weighed in at 240lbs.).

F1V
10-30-2006, 07:32 PM
Sounds like a non-typical z-fanboy comparison. :sadance:

SYONARA
10-30-2006, 07:38 PM
lol!

Jaymes
10-30-2006, 08:15 PM
side profile and front of the z looks more like a sports car. The supra reminds me of a celica from the front and side, but the rear of the supra is easy to love

you should get rid of that hood and get a blank nosepanel, but the color and everything else is good

flyboyzack
10-30-2006, 09:03 PM
Yes, I'm getting the stock nose panel and plan on painting the carbon fiber hood, so I think it will look a lot better.

conszx
10-30-2006, 11:04 PM
Yes, I'm getting the stock nose panel and plan on painting the carbon fiber hood, so I think it will look a lot better.

Your nose panel is fine. It's the hood that needs to go. It completely ruins the look of your Z. Everything else looks great on your Z. I recommend putting the stock hood back on because that CF hood is way to aggressive looking IMO. Maybe I'm getting old because I really like the look of the stock body on both the Z and Supra.

GL with the Supra.

Cons :)

CodyK
10-31-2006, 08:29 AM
I agree with everyone else. You are comparing a highly modded car to a slightly modded car. Doesn't really make sense. Stock which car would you rather have.

T66Dawg
10-31-2006, 12:34 PM
http://www.mkiv.com/publications/motor_trend/7_93/mt793_10.jpg

Enough said:) The only test it lost was due to the speed limiter.

I like Supras and Z's (when the Z32 came out for 1990 I LOVED it) but the design is dated while the Supra looks fresh and I still have people ask me if it is a new car or an 06 or 07. The Supra's design is timeless.

flyboyzack
10-31-2006, 12:46 PM
I think the Z's design is timeless as well, as MANY people will agree with me on that. I do think the Supra both in interior and exterior has a more modern feel to it though.

RedBeauty84ZX
10-31-2006, 12:56 PM
I agree, there are 1500hp supras out there. I've never heard of a Z even breaking 1000hp. I don't follow Z to closely though. I test drove one years back and just was not impressed. The car felt generic to me.


There are a few street Zs with over 1000RWHP, several with 800+RWHP, and the Drag Zs were all around 1500HP. As far as potential, the VG and 2J are very comparable, its just alot easier and cheaper to build a 2J.

T66Dawg
10-31-2006, 12:57 PM
The Z doesn't seem to have aged as well. Most of my car enthusiast friends say they used to love the car when it came out but don't like it as much now as it looks dated. But most of them think the Supra still looks fresh (probably because it was the first car offered with the design cues of current cars such as the big butt, large headlights, large tailpipe, the much copied wing, etc) Just my opinion and those of some of my friends!

RedBeauty84ZX
10-31-2006, 12:58 PM
Also, even though the Z "feels" lighter, it is most definitely not lighter, especially 200lbs. They are very close to the same weight stock, with the Z being the heavier one.



Dont know where your getting your info but a stock TT Z weighs around 3450lbs, If anything they are lighter then the Supra...

T66Dawg
10-31-2006, 12:59 PM
2JZ'a are approaching 2000 HP (Titan's car). The potential of the VG30DETT engine to handle high HP is very good, but it's far less then the Supra's.


There are a few street Zs with over 1000RWHP, several with 800+RWHP, and the Drag Zs were all around 1500HP. As far as potential, the VG and 2J are very comparable, its just alot easier and cheaper to build a 2J.

T66Dawg
10-31-2006, 01:10 PM
Wrong, they are heavier (not much) but they are heavier and the Supra also has a better weight distribution.

http://www.mkiv.com/publications/motor_trend/7_93/mt793_11.jpg


Dont know where your getting your info but a stock TT Z weighs around 3450lbs, If anything they are lighter then the Supra...

F1V
10-31-2006, 01:43 PM
There are a few street Zs with over 1000RWHP, several with 800+RWHP, and the Drag Zs were all around 1500HP.

Please show them to me. :sadance:

You can just provide some links with these 1000rwhp Z's.

Everyone has known for a long time the biggest problem with Z's is the cost to modify (as well as tranny issues). You have to buy almost two of everything when modding.

RedBeauty84ZX
10-31-2006, 03:47 PM
Please show them to me. :sadance:

You can just provide some links with these 1000rwhp Z's.

Everyone has known for a long time the biggest problem with Z's is the cost to modify (as well as tranny issues). You have to buy almost two of everything when modding.


Tranny issues? The tranny is very durable, and people are making over 800RWHP with the stock tranny. Russels car was already posted making over 1000RWHP, their are a few others around the same power level. Escort as well as a few other companys were making 1500HP in their drag Zs years ago, if you have any doubt than look for your self.

T66Dawg
10-31-2006, 03:51 PM
Escort wasn't running a stock tranny (and wasn't making 1500 HP years ago either). And most people making 600+ RWHP that race or drive their Z's hard have problems with the stock tranny.


Tranny issues? The tranny is very durable, and people are making over 800RWHP with the stock tranny. Russels car was already posted making over 1000RWHP, their are a few others around the same power level. Escort as well as a few other companys were making 1500HP in their drag Zs years ago, if you have any doubt than look for your self.

RedBeauty84ZX
10-31-2006, 03:57 PM
Escort wasn't running a stock tranny (and wasn't making 1500 HP years ago either). And most people making 600+ RWHP that race or drive their Z's hard have problems with the stock tranny.


Well in 2001 the car was making 1300RWHP, which is more then 1500HP actually. Hell in 1991 Blitz were making 1000+HP in their Z32, that was before the 2JZ was even in production....

T66Dawg
10-31-2006, 04:32 PM
Show proof on both (especially the 1991 one) I can throw BS numbers around too......




Well in 2001 the car was making 1300RWHP, which is more then 1500HP actually. Hell in 1991 Blitz were making 1000+HP in their Z32, that was before the 2JZ was even in production....

flyboyzack
10-31-2006, 06:32 PM
True the Supra is a little lighter from the factory, but what I'm saying is it FEELS lighter. Also I took a lot a crap out of the car, and am guessing is about 200lbs lighter than stock. Of course the Z has a lot of suspension mods, so it's an apples to oranges comparison, but I'm just giving you guys my impressions.

Prodigy
10-31-2006, 07:45 PM
The feel of the z32 is much better then the supra. I love my z32 TT but pure power i would pick the supra. But if it was and autoX event or nice canyon run with the wife i pick the 300zx. I guess u have to own both to have a real world comparison.

RedBeauty84ZX
11-01-2006, 12:25 AM
Show proof on both (especially the 1991 one) I can throw BS numbers around too......


http://www.junauto.co.jp/democar/jb-z32/spec.html?en

^ Thats the JUN/Blitz car that set a record at over 260MPH back in 1991. And FYI JUN tried several years later with their built Supra to beat it and fell short. The Zs record remains unbroken 16 years later....

And you can check out Escorts website about their cars specs

myrpmredline
11-01-2006, 06:17 AM
"Braking: The Supra seems to stop quicker although the brakes are harder to push. The Z's brakes have a better "feel" but I think the Supra will stop quicker. Both have stock brakes, except the Z has SS lines and slotted stock diameter rotors"

The brakes on the Z suck. They suck. Stock for stock it's night and day on a brake comparison.

myrpmredline
11-01-2006, 06:23 AM
What mods do you have done to the the Z?

Exhaust
Air intake
JWT chip
I cannot tell what kind of intercooler you have on the Z.

They are stock turbo's? if not what are they?

The front of BOTH your cars, all the hood and bumper lines are WAY off. You need to tweak the fit on both. I don't know what you are doing today....but try to find the time to remove the hood on the Z. It does not lend itself to any "smooth" lines.

StokerSix
11-01-2006, 06:39 AM
Like alot of us, I sold my 94 zxtt for a Supra...don't regret it at all.

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 07:13 AM
None of that is proof. A video of a dyno run is proof. Besides 1000 PS is less than 1000 HP and that's a claimed 1000 PS at that.....

Racing engines have been making over 1,000 HP for years, heck in the early 90's Toyota wiped the floor with the Nissan 300ZX powered prototypes in Imsa GTP racing with their 1000+ HP 2.1 liter 3SGTE powered cars. The last 2 years they won almost every single race.


http://www.junauto.co.jp/democar/jb-z32/spec.html?en

^ Thats the JUN/Blitz car that set a record at over 260MPH back in 1991. And FYI JUN tried several years later with their built Supra to beat it and fell short. The Zs record remains unbroken 16 years later....

And you can check out Escorts website about their cars specs

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 07:15 AM
Don't confuse "feel" (subjective) with "capability" (objective), look at the comparison from Motor Trend a few posts above.



The feel of the z32 is much better then the supra. I love my z32 TT but pure power i would pick the supra. But if it was and autoX event or nice canyon run with the wife i pick the 300zx. I guess u have to own both to have a real world comparison.

SYONARA
11-01-2006, 10:02 AM
What turned me on about my 300zxtt when I bought it back in 1990, was the fact it was cutting edge (back then). No one else had a sportscar available with 300hp, twin turbo's,4ws(hicas steering),and cool looks.
When I sold 300zxtt in 1995 it was for two reasons, 1) I was expecting my first child and a two seater was not an option, 2) my test drive in the new (back then )Supra TT.

Prodigy
11-01-2006, 11:00 AM
Why do ppl keep compare hp numbers as factor why one car is better then the other. If you want 1000+ hp why didnt we all just buy a GNX. Lets face it on pump gas sinle turbo the supra max out around 650whp with safe tune. The Z max out around 550-600whp on pump gas. Yes the supra can make more hp yes the supra has better motor design and brake design. Yes the 300zx driver feed back is much better and has more of sport car feel. Also the 300zx came with glass head lights which i find very nice. If your lucky enough to own one then you should be very happy. If you have both even better...

flyboyzack
11-01-2006, 11:16 AM
If your lucky enough to own one then you should be very happy. If you have both even better... :bigthumb:

My R2
11-01-2006, 11:26 AM
I was not going to post but when I see idiots posting I figure I need to bring out my idiot stick:

He was comparing his two cars not Supras and 300zxs.

Stop saying apples and oranges because to him they are both apples being his two cars AS they sit now. You guys have to stop jumping on a person when the Supra is defamed slightly...gee you'd think was talking about your sister or something.....


Great write up let us know your impressions when you start upgrading the Dawg!!!

SYONARA
11-01-2006, 11:59 AM
I think we all know what his impressions will be when he upgrades the dawg, it'll be something like this..................................


DAMN!!!!!!!!

powerz
11-01-2006, 12:10 PM
None of that is proof. A video of a dyno run is proof. Besides 1000 PS is less than 1000 HP and that's a claimed 1000 PS at that.....

Racing engines have been making over 1,000 HP for years, heck in the early 90's Toyota wiped the floor with the Nissan 300ZX powered prototypes in Imsa GTP racing with their 1000+ HP 2.1 liter 3SGTE powered cars. The last 2 years they won almost every single race.

I find it kinda funny that according to you the Z did 260mph+ with less than 1000hp and then comes the supra a few years later with more than 1000hp and couldnt even break the lowly less powerful Zcar speed record. This just proves that the supra is a aerodynamic brick compared to the Z at high speeds.

And then you refuse to believe that escort's Z has more than 1000hp in the mid 90s when in fact they were.

You dont need a dyno video to prove that they made 1000hp, all you need to do is LOOK at the numbers and speed the Z was putting out.

Then the other part I kinda chuckled at was when you did give the nod to the Zcar for making over 1000hp in IMSA in the early 90's. Whats this talk about the 3SGTE? This topic is about the 300Z and the supra, where was the 2JZ in IMSA? Yea the supra was in jgtc with a mr2 motor but still no 2JZ. Was this just a decision by toyota because they knew the Supra's motor wouldnt be able to run 24 hour endurances with close to if not more than 1000hp in IMSA? Yet they opted for a motor that was not even in there flag ship car. The Z in the US was Nissans flag ship car and they run the VG in races, the Skyline in japan was Nissan's flag ship car and they run the RB in races, the supra was Toyota's flag ship car and they run a MR2 motor? WTF??? Fact is the VG30 motor is proven to sustain that amount of HP in 24 hour races. Good thing you stayed with the GTP class because in the GTS class the Nissan 300ZX wiped the floor with the Toyota supra, o wait no supra or the 2JZ.

I think you just have selective memory. Look, just because of recently the supra is putting out massive amounts of power more so than the 300Z can and that its the new spotlight for japanese import fans doesn't give ignorant people the right to discredit or smear what the 300ZX or its motor has accomplished.

But again, both cars are awsome for there times, todays sports cars would stomp both of them flat.

Sorry for blowing off course from the main subject. Grats on both man, lucky lucky.

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 12:42 PM
A GNX motor can't handle as much power as a Supra motor...... A 4.1 liter Indy block can.


Why do ppl keep compare hp numbers as factor why one car is better then the other. If you want 1000+ hp why didnt we all just buy a GNX. Lets face it on pump gas sinle turbo the supra max out around 650whp with safe tune. The Z max out around 550-600whp on pump gas. Yes the supra can make more hp yes the supra has better motor design and brake design. Yes the 300zx driver feed back is much better and has more of sport car feel. Also the 300zx came with glass head lights which i find very nice. If your lucky enough to own one then you should be very happy. If you have both even better...

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 12:47 PM
Ignorance at it's best....

The reason Toyota used the 3SGTE is because the motor was already developed for racing, why waste time and money developing a larger more powerfull 6 cylinder engine when they wiped the floor with the Z using the 3SGTE? And why did I bring that motor up? Because the discussion went from street cars to race cars (Escort Z, Blitz Z, Jun Z).

As far as Escort, he quoted 1300 RWHP, which on a lightweight race car like the Escort Z would have yielded 6 second passes at over 200 MPH, something I don't recall seeing from that car.

Nobody said the Z is a POS, but a Supra it isn't. Just like a Supra is no Ferrari 430.

And for the record I was calling BS to the 1500 HP claim for the Escort Z. I won't be shocked if a VG30DETT is one day built to such levels (1500 HP) but the Escort Z didn't run the #'s to support that claim.


I find it kinda funny that according to you the Z did 260mph+ with less than 1000hp and then comes the supra a few years later with more than 1000hp and couldnt even break the lowly less powerful Zcar speed record. This just proves that the supra is a aerodynamic brick compared to the Z at high speeds.

And then you refuse to believe that escort's Z has more than 1000hp in the mid 90s when in fact they were.

You dont need a dyno video to prove that they made 1000hp, all you need to do is LOOK at the numbers and speed the Z was putting out.

Then the other part I kinda chuckled at was when you did give the nod to the Zcar for making over 1000hp in IMSA in the early 90's. Whats this talk about the 3SGTE? This topic is about the 300Z and the supra, where was the 2JZ in IMSA? Yea the supra was in jgtc with a mr2 motor but still no 2JZ. Was this just a decision by toyota because they knew the Supra's motor wouldnt be able to run 24 hour endurances with close to if not more than 1000hp in IMSA? Yet they opted for a motor that was not even in there flag ship car. The Z in the US was Nissans flag ship car and they run the VG in races, the Skyline in japan was Nissan's flag ship car and they run the RB in races, the supra was Toyota's flag ship car and they run a MR2 motor? WTF??? Fact is the VG30 motor is proven to sustain that amount of HP in 24 hour races. Good thing you stayed with the GTP class because in the GTS class the Nissan 300ZX wiped the floor with the Toyota supra, o wait no supra or the 2JZ.

I think you just have selective memory. Look, just because of recently the supra is putting out massive amounts of power more so than the 300Z can and that its the new spotlight for japanese import fans doesn't give ignorant people the right to discredit or smear what the 300ZX or its motor has accomplished.

But again, both cars are awsome for there times, todays sports cars would stomp both of them flat.

Sorry for blowing off course from the main subject. Grats on both man, lucky lucky.

RedBeauty84ZX
11-01-2006, 01:33 PM
The escort Z did run low 7s at 190MPH over 5 years ago....

And just a FYI, the 300ZX OWNED the IMSA GTS class in the 90's.... In fact it is the only car in history to accomplish such a record in that short amount of time...

12 hours of seabring
24 hours of daytona
24 hours of le mans

All won in the same year, no other car in history has accomplished such a feat.

powerz
11-01-2006, 01:40 PM
Ignorance at it's best....

The reason Toyota used the 3SGTE is because the motor was already developed for racing, why waste time and money developing a larger more powerfull 6 cylinder engine when they wiped the floor with the Z using the 3SGTE? And why did I bring that motor up? Because the discussion went from street cars to race cars (Escort Z, Blitz Z, Jun Z).

As far as Escort, he quoted 1300 RWHP, which on a lightweight race car like the Escort Z would have yielded 6 second passes at over 200 MPH, something I don't recall seeing from that car.

Nobody said the Z is a POS, but a Supra it isn't. Just like a Supra is no Ferrari 430.

And for the record I was calling BS to the 1500 HP claim for the Escort Z. I won't be shocked if a VG30DETT is one day built to such levels (1500 HP) but the Escort Z didn't run the #'s to support that claim.

So thats your lame excuse for not using the 2JZ in any sort of racing from toyota? Cause of money issues and time? LMAO...dude quit making me laugh. And I quote "why waste time and money developing a larger more powerfull 6 cylinder engine", you wanna know why? Its because they WERE BUILDING that more powerful 6 cylinder engine at the time. O wait, but but now we all know that the supra can handle 1500hp easy, what 2000hp psshhh no sweat, yet they didnt even use it in ANY sort of major racing series, i.e IMSA/jgtc etc...wanna take a guess why? Dont give me that BS about money and time. Or maybe its because the toyota engineers knew something that you dont. yea the subject went from street cars to race cars but it was still about the Z. Its not like it was switched to the skyline.

Just because the Supra can produce tons of power on a no load dyno and have burst acceleration for that few seconds on the highway/strip doesnt account for the endurance aspect. though dont get me wrong, i know alot of supra owners on the forum that track there cars almost on a daily basis but they are no where near the stress levels of a national racing series.

your right though the escort Z doesnt have 1500hp but its well over 1000rwhp as some people seem to think the vg cant handle anything more than 800rwhp

i know nobody said the Z was a POS, only people who are ignorant/narrow minded thinks that. Though just because people dont say it, they imply it all the time by the meaning behind there words.

myrpmredline
11-01-2006, 01:52 PM
I forgot to mention...reading the other posts made me remember. The headlights on my 300ZXTT were the best lights I ever had on a car. Talk about BRIGHT stock lights. I miss my Z it is a good car. All cars have their short comings. Both his cars are nice and he enjoys the hell out of them. So I say "good for him" I only wish he would tighten the cars up a bit sorta speak (gaps, bumpers ect...). I had two 300ZX TT and the Supra, liked them both.

I still hate the hood on the his Z! lol

Nick 95 6sp
11-01-2006, 02:42 PM
Another point of view from me, not comparing Nissan vs Toyota factory race teams, just the typical owner who tracks his car.

Over the last few years there's a nice guy I've met a number of times at track days at Pocono, he often tracks his white 300ZX TT which is moded to well over 500whp at track day boost level (i.e. lower than max boost). Our conversations always include him saying something like "...I can't believe you guys with Supras get the power with such ease and the great RELIABILITY; compared to the complexity of a moded ZX plus I'm always fixing one bug or another to keep it going...". And he's no newbie to ZX TT's, he knows them very well and his car is clean and well prepared and he's a very good driver.

In spite of how much I always liked the 300ZX TT's, every time we're at the track together I'm reminded how glad I am that I have a Supra.

PS: I just noticed that in my little sig pic below, that white car partially visible behind the Porsche is him in his 300ZX.

Mofo84
11-01-2006, 02:43 PM
I think the lights on the Z are weak can't see shit without your fog lights on.

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 02:47 PM
190 MPH in a race car that light is WELL under 1500 HP. Heck Ryan Woon's street Supra makes more HP than the Escort race car.

Imsa GTS is irrelevant since Toyota wasn't running in that LOWER class.


The escort Z did run low 7s at 190MPH over 5 years ago....

And just a FYI, the 300ZX OWNED the IMSA GTS class in the 90's.... In fact it is the only car in history to accomplish such a record in that short amount of time...

12 hours of seabring
24 hours of daytona
24 hours of le mans

All won in the same year, no other car in history has accomplished such a feat.

Drifter757
11-01-2006, 02:51 PM
I think the lights on the Z are weak can't see shit without your fog lights on.

^Usually that's because the projectors get really dirty. Since they're hard to clean and they've been around for 11+ years now, most have never been cleaned.

Clean them and they're 100% better.

Mofo84
11-01-2006, 02:53 PM
I have cleaned them and they have high beam silverstars.

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 02:55 PM
I love how ignrant Supra bashers ASSume or WANT to believe that Toyota didn't race the 2JZ because of some "issue", especially given the fact that it is one of a very few production engines capable of handling over 1000 HP stock, let alone built for race specs.

I HAVE spoken with TRD employees in the US about Toyota making a mistake by not racing the Supra in the US at length. They agree that Toyota should have raced the Supra for marketing purposes. They also said Toyota NEVER pursued racing with the 2JZ because the 3SGTE was already developed, was lighter, easier to pacakge and was easily winning in most series it competed in. Why do you think there are no real internal parts for the 2JZ from TRD? Because they never tried racing with it. Again I know you know very little about the business world (based on your ignorant post below) but why waste time and money on developing a race version of the 2JZ when the 3SGTE was capable of handing beatdowns on the series it was used in?




So thats your lame excuse for not using the 2JZ in any sort of racing from toyota? Cause of money issues and time? LMAO...dude quit making me laugh. And I quote "why waste time and money developing a larger more powerfull 6 cylinder engine", you wanna know why? Its because they WERE BUILDING that more powerful 6 cylinder engine at the time. O wait, but but now we all know that the supra can handle 1500hp easy, what 2000hp psshhh no sweat, yet they didnt even use it in ANY sort of major racing series, i.e IMSA/jgtc etc...wanna take a guess why? Dont give me that BS about money and time. Or maybe its because the toyota engineers knew something that you dont. yea the subject went from street cars to race cars but it was still about the Z. Its not like it was switched to the skyline.

Just because the Supra can produce tons of power on a no load dyno and have burst acceleration for that few seconds on the highway/strip doesnt account for the endurance aspect. though dont get me wrong, i know alot of supra owners on the forum that track there cars almost on a daily basis but they are no where near the stress levels of a national racing series.

your right though the escort Z doesnt have 1500hp but its well over 1000rwhp as some people seem to think the vg cant handle anything more than 800rwhp

i know nobody said the Z was a POS, only people who are ignorant/narrow minded thinks that. Though just because people dont say it, they imply it all the time by the meaning behind there words.

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 02:56 PM
Which brings up an interesting fact, the Supra headlights were the brightest headlights on any production car for sale in 1993 in the US.


I think the lights on the Z are weak can't see shit without your fog lights on.

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 03:03 PM
Street Nissan's are never as well sorted out as street Toyotas. Back when Rhys Millen was doing the Pikes Peak events he used to run a Supra in a class that only allowed minor upgrades (suspension, intake, exhaust, etc.). He ran the car several times with no issues. He then raced in a similar class for AWD vehicles with an R33. The car had to have an aftemarket oil pump installed because the factory ones are not very good AND the car was overhearting halfway up the mountain. And up to the point when it went from paved to unpaved the Supra was ahead of the Skyline by several seconds.

How do I know all this info? From speaking to Rhys Millen himself and watching an in-car video of him running the GTR Skyline R33 up Pikes Peak at UPRD when Javier owned the shop. In the video you see him pointing at the gauges when the car started overheating.

Heck 2 weeks ago a local guy was running his R33 GTR here in Phoenix and the car was overheating in a less than 20 minute session......

I know Nissan loverboy is going to bring up how Skylines have done very well in racing but those are Nissan preped cars.


Another point of view from me, not comparing Nissan vs Toyota factory race teams, just the typical owner who tracks his car.

Over the last few years there's a nice guy I've met a number of times at track days at Pocono, he often tracks his white 300ZX TT which is moded to well over 500whp at track day boost level (i.e. lower than max boost). Our conversations always include him saying something like "...I can't believe you guys with Supras get the power with such ease and the great RELIABILITY; compared to the complexity of a moded ZX plus I'm always fixing one bug or another to keep it going...". And he's no newbie to ZX TT's, he knows them very well and his car is clean and well prepared and he's a very good driver.

In spite of how much I always liked the 300ZX TT's, every time we're at the track together I'm reminded how glad I am that I have a Supra.

PS: I just noticed that in my little sig pic below, that white car partially visible behind the Porsche is him in his 300ZX.

T66Dawg
11-01-2006, 03:22 PM
By the way, using a HP calculator (which calculates crank HP not RWHP as some of the sites that have them erroneusly claim, they have been around for years an always calculated crank HP) I get a HP rating for the Titan PRO RWD Celica of 1950+ HP using their best trapspeed of 220+ MPH and race weight of 2350 pounds. Keep in mind that the Titan cars have run of the mill production Toyota blocks (built internals of course) and heads (ported, bigger valves etc.)

If we use the same weight for the Escort Z, which is probably lighter since it didn't compete in any classes that required cars have a minimum weight requirement, we get 1250+ HP, not even close to 1500 HP and 700 HP less than Titan.

TheTwinZ
11-01-2006, 05:17 PM
http://www.photodump.org/stored8/300ZX2029.jpg

This is Jorge Lazcano's Z from Puerto Rico...He made this run with 1200+RWHP...Some upgrades later made him hit 1360RWHP on the dyno to hit 6's for first time...AFAIK, he made a test pass running 6.98 sec. but he lost control of the car because of a failed part on the front suspension, making it go into the wall.

The car is totaled, but the bullet proof engine :D survived the impact and maybe it's just a matter of time until we'll see him hitting 6's on the track again.

I think the dyno chart was never posted, since the dyno session was made a couple of days before the accident.

BTW, I got the info from car forums of Puerto Rico (www.carrito.net and others)

The Escort Z is 1200+ RWHP, but there's always something new on progress, so it must be more powerfull now, but who gives a s***.


http://www.cyprusracingcars.com/images/twinT72engine.jpg

This is a 1345 RWHP VG30DETT (with twins T-72's) powered Ford Escort in UK...The dyno chart was useless, since it only read up to 1000 WHP.

Here's a video...Nothing special, just revving the engine...

http://www.cyprusracingcars.com/forum/videos/1350_300zx.wmv

Anyway, I don't want to enter into the same 300ZX vs. Supra game...The Supra is an easier power maker, because of the aftermarket support it has...On the other hand, the 300ZX has an amazing potential too, but the engine compartment, especially fitting big turbos, is the only limitant factor for not seeing as many powerfull Z's as you see on the Supras.

New aftermarket parts are being worked as we speak, so powerfull Z's are going to be more common soon.

http://www.photodump.org/stored8/ttmofo3.jpg

http://www.photodump.org/stored8/ttmofo5.jpg

myrpmredline
11-01-2006, 05:30 PM
Which brings up an interesting fact, the Supra headlights were the brightest headlights on any production car for sale in 1993 in the US.


Nope. 300's are brighter. lol. Enough already :)

powerz
11-01-2006, 05:55 PM
I love how ignrant Supra bashers ASSume or WANT to believe that Toyota didn't race the 2JZ because of some "issue", especially given the fact that it is one of a very few production engines capable of handling over 1000 HP stock, let alone built for race specs.

I HAVE spoken with TRD employees in the US about Toyota making a mistake by not racing the Supra in the US at length. They agree that Toyota should have raced the Supra for marketing purposes. They also said Toyota NEVER pursued racing with the 2JZ because the 3SGTE was already developed, was lighter, easier to pacakge and was easily winning in most series it competed in. Why do you think there are no real internal parts for the 2JZ from TRD? Because they never tried racing with it. Again I know you know very little about the business world (based on your ignorant post below) but why waste time and money on developing a race version of the 2JZ when the 3SGTE was capable of handing beatdowns on the series it was used in?

Wait so your telling me, you and your TRD word of the land employees are not assuming yourselves? Thats like asking the govenor of california if he knew george bushes plan for the iraq war. Your nothing but assuming yourselves, your trd employees would be creditable if they worked on the R&D of the 2JZ and i highly doubt it. I can assume all I want cause in case, we both agreed along with your word of the land trd buddies that the 2JZ never seen real world racing.

But hey you said it yourself, the 2JZ can make 1000hp stock yet toyota prefered the 3SGTE over it. hey while were at it about business why waste money R&D the 2JZ in the first place when the 3SGTE was better, its lighter, more better packaged, also was proven. Case in point racing is not about not saving money/time, car company spends millions on R&D for the soul purpose of testing there lastest creation on how it stacks up to the competition, especially if its going into there flag ship car. You think Nissan dont have any race proven engines before the VG30de came along?

Heck lets hop over the jgtc, why the 3SGTE? ok it was lighter, better weight distribution blah blah but yet nissan pulled it off in the skyline with the RB in it so why cant toyota do the same, heck jgtc runs alot less HP than IMSA did. So this basically is saying toyota wanted an replacement because they knew the 2JZ would not be able to take hours upon hours of abuse? Or was it just because it was to big and to cumsy even though the car's long hood could take it no problem.

Both in IMSA and jgtc, no 2JZ. i dont know man your gonna need more than because the 3SGTE was developed already to convince me. And in the mean time we ALL can assume but having the 2JZ not appear in any form on series is very skidish, very.

Also saying the skyline has overheating problems and leaving out the supra is not true by a long shot. I know/seen/heard plenty of supra owners with overheating issues. Thats just something all cars deal with pending on the temps outside and track temps

And no im not even bashing the supra as you say, im just wondering why the 2JZ never seen anything of world racing series. The 3SGTE being just to uber doesnt cut the argument as all other car company ive seen races there flag ship car WITH its own engine. Guess only toyota is an exception.

RedBeauty84ZX
11-01-2006, 06:22 PM
Nope. 300's are brighter. lol. Enough already :)

I have to agree. My brothers stock Z32 head lights were the brightest factory head lights I had ever seen...

Mofo84
11-01-2006, 08:09 PM
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/529/dsc04803tf0.jpg
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2514/dsc04800dt4.jpg
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7056/dsc04795pp8.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2874/dsc04799ns0.jpg
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6969/dsc04792zx7.jpg
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5130/dsc04788zn7.jpg

myrpmredline
11-01-2006, 08:51 PM
:bigthumb:

Silver Supra
11-01-2006, 09:23 PM
children, children!
Geez - get back on topic.
This post was about two specific cars - not brand vs brand.
The original post pretty well laid out the differences in the cars and I'm not surprised that the poster would like the Z he's had longer and that currently has more power.
HOWEVER, when he spends a few hundred on the MkIV, his tune will begin to change and if he goes much further he will be a Supra Pavarotti!!
Get a car cover for that Z, bud, because it's gonna be parked a lot more!! :bigthumb:

begone
11-01-2006, 09:35 PM
Having owned both - I prefer the Supra.

But I give the nod to the Z's Handling - it just feels tighter and more nimble.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3759/copyofmisc026jx3.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copyofmisc026jx3.jpg)

Prodigy
11-02-2006, 01:23 AM
A GNX motor can't handle as much power as a Supra motor...... A 4.1 liter Indy block can.

GNX guys were eatin up the street when we were just talkin about bpu can push 18psi.. Dont even try to knock that car..

slither
11-02-2006, 01:55 AM
I drove a 90(ish) Z back in 96. I didnt like one thing about it, except for the looks back then. The first time I ever drove a supra I bought it.
powerz, are you hinting around that the 2jz isnt as strong as people say they are and about the longevity of the engine when pushed? Ive go a 94 supra with 181,XXX miles with a 74gts on it that says otherwise :p

T66Dawg
11-02-2006, 07:32 AM
WOW, this guy is DENSE.

Lets see Toyota is by far the most profitable car company in the world. And how did they get there? By being SMART with their money. So why spend money developing another race engine when the 3SGTE was already DONE, DEVELOPED and WINNING races?

And no these TRD employees were not in the 2JZ program because the 2JZ was never used for racing by Toyota. They were involved in the IRL engine program and on the Nascar engine program so I'm pretty sure they know a LOT more about the subject than me and Supra haters such as you.


Wait so your telling me, you and your TRD word of the land employees are not assuming yourselves? Thats like asking the govenor of california if he knew george bushes plan for the iraq war. Your nothing but assuming yourselves, your trd employees would be creditable if they worked on the R&D of the 2JZ and i highly doubt it. I can assume all I want cause in case, we both agreed along with your word of the land trd buddies that the 2JZ never seen real world racing.

But hey you said it yourself, the 2JZ can make 1000hp stock yet toyota prefered the 3SGTE over it. hey while were at it about business why waste money R&D the 2JZ in the first place when the 3SGTE was better, its lighter, more better packaged, also was proven. Case in point racing is not about not saving money/time, car company spends millions on R&D for the soul purpose of testing there lastest creation on how it stacks up to the competition, especially if its going into there flag ship car. You think Nissan dont have any race proven engines before the VG30de came along?

Heck lets hop over the jgtc, why the 3SGTE? ok it was lighter, better weight distribution blah blah but yet nissan pulled it off in the skyline with the RB in it so why cant toyota do the same, heck jgtc runs alot less HP than IMSA did. So this basically is saying toyota wanted an replacement because they knew the 2JZ would not be able to take hours upon hours of abuse? Or was it just because it was to big and to cumsy even though the car's long hood could take it no problem.

Both in IMSA and jgtc, no 2JZ. i dont know man your gonna need more than because the 3SGTE was developed already to convince me. And in the mean time we ALL can assume but having the 2JZ not appear in any form on series is very skidish, very.

Also saying the skyline has overheating problems and leaving out the supra is not true by a long shot. I know/seen/heard plenty of supra owners with overheating issues. Thats just something all cars deal with pending on the temps outside and track temps

And no im not even bashing the supra as you say, im just wondering why the 2JZ never seen anything of world racing series. The 3SGTE being just to uber doesnt cut the argument as all other car company ive seen races there flag ship car WITH its own engine. Guess only toyota is an exception.

T66Dawg
11-02-2006, 07:33 AM
They were, and back then they were typically in the 500 RWHP range, I should know as I had several friends with GN's back then.


GNX guys were eatin up the street when we were just talkin about bpu can push 18psi.. Dont even try to knock that car..

T66Dawg
11-02-2006, 07:48 AM
I'm not doubting that the power can be made. However the trapspeed the Escort Z ran is NOT indicative of 1300 RWHP. Also noticed that all the cars you listed have some reason not to have a dyno video showing 1300+ RWHP (one only reads 1000 but it was 1345 WHP?) Now if that was calculated from the torque curve or something I can understand. The other car was dynoed before hitting the wall but no video?

At any rate what was the trapspeed of the one that did 6.98? 1300+ RWHP would yeild somewhere in the 204 MPH trapspeeds.

Understand that I'm not an ignorant basher (like the guy pulling stuff out of his rectal/brain cavity about the 2JZ not being suitable for endurance racing). I KNOW the power can be made with a properly built VG30. Heck in the 80's F1 was running 1000+ HP 4 bangers and some of the cars were making far more power in qualifying.


http://www.photodump.org/stored8/300ZX2029.jpg

This is Jorge Lazcano's Z from Puerto Rico...He made this run with 1200+RWHP...Some upgrades later made him hit 1360RWHP on the dyno to hit 6's for first time...AFAIK, he made a test pass running 6.98 sec. but he lost control of the car because of a failed part on the front suspension, making it go into the wall.

The car is totaled, but the bullet proof engine :D survived the impact and maybe it's just a matter of time until we'll see him hitting 6's on the track again.

I think the dyno chart was never posted, since the dyno session was made a couple of days before the accident.

BTW, I got the info from car forums of Puerto Rico (www.carrito.net and others)

The Escort Z is 1200+ RWHP, but there's always something new on progress, so it must be more powerfull now, but who gives a s***.


http://www.cyprusracingcars.com/images/twinT72engine.jpg

This is a 1345 RWHP VG30DETT (with twins T-72's) powered Ford Escort in UK...The dyno chart was useless, since it only read up to 1000 WHP.

Here's a video...Nothing special, just revving the engine...

http://www.cyprusracingcars.com/forum/videos/1350_300zx.wmv

Anyway, I don't want to enter into the same 300ZX vs. Supra game...The Supra is an easier power maker, because of the aftermarket support it has...On the other hand, the 300ZX has an amazing potential too, but the engine compartment, especially fitting big turbos, is the only limitant factor for not seeing as many powerfull Z's as you see on the Supras.

New aftermarket parts are being worked as we speak, so powerfull Z's are going to be more common soon.

http://www.photodump.org/stored8/ttmofo3.jpg

http://www.photodump.org/stored8/ttmofo5.jpg

MRSUPRA
11-02-2006, 12:07 PM
Nice comparison. I like both cars also.

And I agree, the Z is much better looking than the supra with its jelly bean lines. I give a tie score for the interiors. As for the other comparissons: Brakes-supras are much better. Handling-supra etter at the limit, but I agree the Z feels better at 7/10ths. And I agree, the Z feels lighter even though its about the same weight as the sup. Modding: the supra is better, but the Z has lot of potential too.

Hey you gotta remember, this is supraforums. You can never say something is better than the supra. :)

powerz
11-02-2006, 12:23 PM
WOW, this guy is DENSE.

Lets see Toyota is by far the most profitable car company in the world. And how did they get there? By being SMART with their money. So why spend money developing another race engine when the 3SGTE was already DONE, DEVELOPED and WINNING races?

And no these TRD employees were not in the 2JZ program because the 2JZ was never used for racing by Toyota. They were involved in the IRL engine program and on the Nascar engine program so I'm pretty sure they know a LOT more about the subject than me and Supra haters such as you.

WOOT the elitest who resorts to insulting others at the end. Bring on your insults while I sit here and smile and chuckle at you.

Your only excuse is because of a 3SGTE which was not even NOT even in there FLAG SHIP CAR, cant you get that through your head? Guess what, the vg30d was DONE, DEVELOPED and WINNING races, the sr20 was DONE, DEVELOPED and WINNING races, whats your point.

Yea toyota is the must profitable in recent times but it isnt because of holding back R&D on race engines. It was obviously because of toyotas awsome reliabilty, reputation, and cars like the camry/corrola that made toyota the most profitable. You talk about being SMART with money yet the MKIV was a big flop in sales. How many supras were sold in the US for say? Going with your agrument, if toyota really wanted to be SMART and wanted to save money and time they woulda mass produced the 3SGTE for all there sports car line and a better revised version(for time/money saving purposes) for the MKIV because it was already a proven engine all the way up to 1000hp+ in there racing applications. And yet for all this smartness and time/money saving they go and produced a powerful awsome 6 cylinder engine? Tell me Mr.elitest why is that??????

At least we agree that the 2JZ was never used in any sort of series racing and you agreeing that your TRD buddies never had any hand in the R&D of the 2JZ. So what if they are in nascar engine program and IRL engine programs, does that mean they built the 2JZ from a plain white piece of paper? equation by equation? calculated the min and max and limits of the blocks to every single little pieces that make up the 2JZ to a T with the slightest errors? For all the hype you give them all your TRD buddies do is put together pieces of something a engineer made, not really knowing how the engineer solved each problem step by step along the way. Those engines they build in those programs are NOT the 2JZ and obviously you cant compare it, its a whole different engine.

You can also call me a supra hater all day long but FACT is they never used the 2JZ in any world series racing and yes I have the right to question its ability to run endurance races for the pure fact that toyota never used it. You know why I can assume? Its because in FACT they didnt so I will assume toyota did have something to hide. Please continue to cling onto your "because the 3SGTE was OMG pwning everything in sight" and the "OMG you know nothing of smart business, only people like me can, only we know how to save money/time". Excuses excuses. LMAO...

flyboyzack
11-02-2006, 12:43 PM
DAAAAAYYYAAAAMMMM guys, settle down settle down now. I took the Supra out for a spin today, and man did it pull hard for only running 14 PSI!!!! If my Z was running 14 PSI I think they would be about equal, but that's just a guess.

conszx
11-02-2006, 12:53 PM
Both cars SUCK!:D Now close this thread. Thx...

T66Dawg
11-02-2006, 01:04 PM
Funny, TRD engineers say they didn't use the 2JZ engine to save $$$ since the 3SGTE was developed and good enough but some Supra hater claims it's because of endurance...... Gee I wonder who's right....... Especially since Supra engines have been proven to over 1000 HP 100% stock and close to 2000 HP modified.......

And for the record Toyota has been profitable every year since the 50's and the most profitable car maker on average for decades, not "in recent times".

By the way what do YOU drive?




WOOT the elitest who resorts to insulting others at the end. Bring on your insults while I sit here and smile and chuckle at you.

Your only excuse is because of a 3SGTE which was not even NOT even in there FLAG SHIP CAR, cant you get that through your head? Guess what, the vg30d was DONE, DEVELOPED and WINNING races, the sr20 was DONE, DEVELOPED and WINNING races, whats your point.

Yea toyota is the must profitable in recent times but it isnt because of holding back R&D on race engines. It was obviously because of toyotas awsome reliabilty, reputation, and cars like the camry/corrola that made toyota the most profitable. You talk about being SMART with money yet the MKIV was a big flop in sales. How many supras were sold in the US for say? Going with your agrument, if toyota really wanted to be SMART and wanted to save money and time they woulda mass produced the 3SGTE for all there sports car line and a better revised version(for time/money saving purposes) for the MKIV because it was already a proven engine all the way up to 1000hp+ in there racing applications. And yet for all this smartness and time/money saving they go and produced a powerful awsome 6 cylinder engine? Tell me Mr.elitest why is that??????

At least we agree that the 2JZ was never used in any sort of series racing and you agreeing that your TRD buddies never had any hand in the R&D of the 2JZ. So what if they are in nascar engine program and IRL engine programs, does that mean they built the 2JZ from a plain white piece of paper? equation by equation? calculated the min and max and limits of the blocks to every single little pieces that make up the 2JZ to a T with the slightest errors? For all the hype you give them all your TRD buddies do is put together pieces of something a engineer made, not really knowing how the engineer solved each problem step by step along the way. Those engines they build in those programs are NOT the 2JZ and obviously you cant compare it, its a whole different engine.

You can also call me a supra hater all day long but FACT is they never used the 2JZ in any world series racing and yes I have the right to question its ability to run endurance races for the pure fact that toyota never used it. You know why I can assume? Its because in FACT they didnt so I will assume toyota did have something to hide. Please continue to cling onto your "because the 3SGTE was OMG pwning everything in sight" and the "OMG you know nothing of smart business, only people like me can, only we know how to save money/time". Excuses excuses. LMAO...

Jim Strawn
11-02-2006, 01:27 PM
After owning 5 Zs and 2 Supras, I say:

Both great cars. Z handle better, but Supra better looking and easier to make Monster because more room under hood, stronger bottom end.

Z EXPENSIVE to work on.

TheTwinZ
11-02-2006, 01:48 PM
I complitely agree that the 2JZ is an awesome engine, but I'm not sure about the problem-free part.

Now I wonder why my friend who have 2 Supra TT's...One of them is an almost stock Supra (JDM) with ~30K miles and it is not running right (he almost killed the engine due to overheating problems and ended up killing its ceramic stock turbos)...The other is a BPU Supra (USDM) with ~63K miles and he fried his engine a couple of months ago (needs a new head and a full rebuilt...$4k-$5k to get it fixed with cheap peruvian labor).

I have 2 300ZX TT's...My white '91 is almost stock with ~50K miles and ZERO problems for my first year of ownership...The other is a '90 with ~83K miles and a few mods (BPU in your language ;)) and I'm not going to say that it's ZERO problems, but I'm enjoying it.

I know this is not an standart, but at the end of the day I'm enjoying both of my Z's, while my friend haven't driven his supras for long time and now is buying new turbos for his JDM Supra to sell it and be able to pay the shop to fix the other Supra, that is the one that he's gonna keep.

T66Dawg
11-02-2006, 01:49 PM
Attention all forum members:

Let it be known that any and all engines from any manufacturer in the world that wasn't raced (even if that manufacturer had plenty of other engines they race with successfully) means that that engine can't handle the stresses of racing. It does not matter if the engine powers the quickest and fastest imports in the world or has been proven to nearly 2000 HP and over 1000 HP 100% stock.

So says powerz who I am sure must be an F1 engine designer.

Thank you for your attention.

Jim Strawn
11-02-2006, 02:37 PM
My Z TT's usually started having all sorts of problems at about 110,000 miles. I'll probably get another one some day, but they're a pain to work on.

StokerSix
11-02-2006, 03:11 PM
This thread is nothing but flame bait and needs to be removed. These two cars have been around long enough for us know what the similarities/differences/capabilities are.

flyboyzack
11-02-2006, 06:37 PM
I didn't want/mean to start a flame war, but I must admit it's quite entertaining.

powerz
11-02-2006, 07:21 PM
:) No worries guys Im just having a friendly conversation with my fellow supra owner. Though insults were not my intentions if it sounded that way.


Funny, TRD engineers say they didn't use the 2JZ engine to save $$$ since the 3SGTE was developed and good enough but some Supra hater claims it's because of endurance...... Gee I wonder who's right....... Especially since Supra engines have been proven to over 1000 HP 100% stock and close to 2000 HP modified.......

And for the record Toyota has been profitable every year since the 50's and the most profitable car maker on average for decades, not "in recent times".

By the way what do YOU drive?

Sigh. ok i give up with you and your TRD buddies, they are the word of the land I suppose. Wait a minute how did your TRD employees instantaneously turned into TRD engineers? But at any rate...I never claimed anything, I said Im assuming theres a difference.

O wait wait, now you changed it to just profitable? Your other post said and I quote "most profitable". If its just profitable yea I agree with you. Most profitable didnt happen til recent. Though probably you didnt know my meaning of recent is not just a year or two ago.

Lets see, what do I drive....hmmmm.. should I tell you I drive a supra or should I tell you I drive a 300zx or maybe Im a bum on the street and I happen to just use the local libraries computer. Take your pick, which everone makes you more happy my friend. :)


Attention all forum members:

Let it be known that any and all engines from any manufacturer in the world that wasn't raced (even if that manufacturer had plenty of other engines they race with successfully) means that that engine can't handle the stresses of racing. It does not matter if the engine powers the quickest and fastest imports in the world or has been proven to nearly 2000 HP and over 1000 HP 100% stock.

So says powerz who I am sure must be an F1 engine designer.

Thank you for your attention.

Again, the term was not "handle the stresses of racing" the key term was endurance racing. Any body can race there old hooptie and say it went through stress of racing. Can it handle 12 hours or even 24 hours of it?

Again with the sigh :( your obviously confusing yourself. Drag racing and no load dyno's dont mean it can sustain it for 12 hours let alone 24 hours. We know the supra can make 1000hp(100% stock :ugh2: ..though i think you meant stock bottom end) and 2000hp, again your confusing a few seconds of burst acceleration to 12 hours to 24 hours of abuse. Let me say it again, 1000hp for that few seconds =/= 1000hp for 12-24 hours.

Lets go through the facts again.....

Fact----> the 2JZ is unproven in endurance racing
Fact----> the 2JZ was never used in any series of professional factory sponsored racing

My assumption----> Toyota knows something you dont.

Though I did chuckled by the end cause I dont know why by the end you talk to the whole forum and try to make it sound like im the bad guy for assuming yet you were no different but I guess support makes it alot easier. Ive been just talking to you bud, I didnt even drag a single person in our whole convo.

Well thanks for a good time my friend and some good laughs :bigthumb:

Zboost
11-02-2006, 10:28 PM
You basically just told us that the Supra is more reliable, has better braking, better transmission, better top, and better power potential but the Z is a better value in your opinion. :rofl:

Just wait until you start modding the Supra more and you will see the light.


Supra's cost basically twice what a TTZ costs, so financially speaking..... it's really no difference once you start modding. What you save modding a supra is offset by the cost of the car itself.

BlackSupra93
11-02-2006, 11:03 PM
They went with the 3s because of something like a 500 hp limit. The 3s could reach that limit, be reliable, and it weighed less.


side note: your z looks SO much better than your supra. But give me a black supra with nice rims anyday over the z. But your Z has a particularly striking side profile. :bigthumb:

DTSupra30
11-02-2006, 11:42 PM
Another point of view from me, not comparing Nissan vs Toyota factory race teams, just the typical owner who tracks his car.

Over the last few years there's a nice guy I've met a number of times at track days at Pocono, he often tracks his white 300ZX TT which is moded to well over 500whp at track day boost level (i.e. lower than max boost). Our conversations always include him saying something like "...I can't believe you guys with Supras get the power with such ease and the great RELIABILITY; compared to the complexity of a moded ZX plus I'm always fixing one bug or another to keep it going...". And he's no newbie to ZX TT's, he knows them very well and his car is clean and well prepared and he's a very good driver.

In spite of how much I always liked the 300ZX TT's, every time we're at the track together I'm reminded how glad I am that I have a Supra.

PS: I just noticed that in my little sig pic below, that white car partially visible behind the Porsche is him in his 300ZX.




I agree with him, and Nick off topic, I need a ride in your APU haha :)


Matt

Suprasarecool
11-02-2006, 11:48 PM
http://www.cyprusracingcars.com/images/twinT72engine.jpg

looking at that gives me a headache :sadance:

so where are these thousand hp Z's at? im more interested in what times they are putting down with the manual tranny..

RedBeauty84ZX
11-03-2006, 12:35 AM
[IMG]
so where are these thousand hp Z's at? im more interested in what times they are putting down with the manual tranny..

turborush's car here on the forums is running low 10s at 140+MPH with the 5 speed. With his recent modifications the car should be in the 9's soon.Their are several others in the 10's as well. Currently the only 9 second Zs are automatics and obviously the drag Zs were as well.

T66Dawg
11-03-2006, 07:26 AM
If you want to ASSume that being the most profitable car company for the past 25+ years is "recently" then so be it.

Also last time I checked TRD engineers were also TRD employees. Toyota to the best of my knowledge does NOT use slave labor, therefore their engineers are employees. I guess you assume my information was as worthless as yours and you automatically assumed I was getting my info from the janitors at the TRD facility.

Lastly I, and any rational person, will take the word of a TRD engineer over the word of a Supra basher EVERY day of the week, period.

I hope you realize how ridiculous you look assuming that a factory race prepped 2JZ from Toyota making ~850 HP like the IMSA GTP Z's wouldn't be able to race for 12 to 24 hours when 100% PRODUCTION based engines built by Titan Motorsports making nearly 2,000 HP will last roughly a whole season of racing. :ugh2:

I'm not surprised to see you won't mention what you drive :rolleyes:



:) No worries guys Im just having a friendly conversation with my fellow supra owner. Though insults were not my intentions if it sounded that way.



Sigh. ok i give up with you and your TRD buddies, they are the word of the land I suppose. Wait a minute how did your TRD employees instantaneously turned into TRD engineers? But at any rate...I never claimed anything, I said Im assuming theres a difference.

O wait wait, now you changed it to just profitable? Your other post said and I quote "most profitable". If its just profitable yea I agree with you. Most profitable didnt happen til recent. Though probably you didnt know my meaning of recent is not just a year or two ago.

Lets see, what do I drive....hmmmm.. should I tell you I drive a supra or should I tell you I drive a 300zx or maybe Im a bum on the street and I happen to just use the local libraries computer. Take your pick, which everone makes you more happy my friend. :)



Again, the term was not "handle the stresses of racing" the key term was endurance racing. Any body can race there old hooptie and say it went through stress of racing. Can it handle 12 hours or even 24 hours of it?

Again with the sigh :( your obviously confusing yourself. Drag racing and no load dyno's dont mean it can sustain it for 12 hours let alone 24 hours. We know the supra can make 1000hp(100% stock :ugh2: ..though i think you meant stock bottom end) and 2000hp, again your confusing a few seconds of burst acceleration to 12 hours to 24 hours of abuse. Let me say it again, 1000hp for that few seconds =/= 1000hp for 12-24 hours.

Lets go through the facts again.....

Fact----> the 2JZ is unproven in endurance racing
Fact----> the 2JZ was never used in any series of professional factory sponsored racing

My assumption----> Toyota knows something you dont.

Though I did chuckled by the end cause I dont know why by the end you talk to the whole forum and try to make it sound like im the bad guy for assuming yet you were no different but I guess support makes it alot easier. Ive been just talking to you bud, I didnt even drag a single person in our whole convo.

Well thanks for a good time my friend and some good laughs :bigthumb:

HTTS
11-03-2006, 03:22 PM
T66dawg,

How about you share more pictures of the beautiful TRD widebody beast in your sig! :bowdown:

T66Dawg
11-03-2006, 04:31 PM
Thanks for the compliment :sadance:

Here are some pics:

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385682


T66dawg,

How about you share more pictures of the beautiful TRD widebody beast in your sig! :bowdown:

Prodigy
11-03-2006, 06:12 PM
You guys are fighting about 10 + year old cars now i use to fight about this in highschool.. Well my moms honda civic is faster then your moms Cav..