anyone running a gt35r on 2jz??

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 241

Thread: anyone running a gt35r on 2jz??

  1. #51
    SupraForums Member silvino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    San Jose, Ca.
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,165
    Isn't that VE a little high for the average car?

  2. Remove Advertisements
    SupraForums.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #52
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    yorkshire UK
    Age
    46
    Posts
    180
    whats the spec on that turbo?

    any maps for it?
    jap spec mkiv tt6
    gt35r on arnout cast manifold
    powerfc - hks typeS - cusco coilovers

  4. #53
    RRev Motorsports Latteboost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Portland OR
    Posts
    668
    I dont think it is too high, at about 4000 rpm the VE should be in that range. For refrence the Saleen S7 has a VE as high as 1.2 (according the Garrett engineer).

  5. #54
    RRev Motorsports Latteboost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Portland OR
    Posts
    668
    PhilNZ- I looked at the post on the guy that dyno'd the GT35, and noticed that he was still using the 550 injectors, by changing those to 720's he might be able to squeeze some more power out of his setup. Do you know the injector duty cycle during this dyno run?

  6. #55
    RRev Motorsports Latteboost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Portland OR
    Posts
    668
    eyefi- GT3582R 56 trim, 0.7 A/R with a anti surge housing. Have the maps, but dont know how to post excel files. The map is not the same as the one on turbobygarrett.com.

  7. #56
    SupraForums Member Phil NZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New-Zealand
    Posts
    270
    Hi Latteboost, Yes if you read the whole article on his car the fuel system is maxed out but the AFR was 11.5. This size turbo can clearly make more power with more fuel and higher again boost. The point I was trying to make is it is taking 22psi to make 480RWHP, which was similar to the T60-1 I had as well. The T66 and similar size turbo's which I assume include the GT40 do make 500+RWHP at 18psi which means pump gas can be used for a strong street tune. My target always was a 500RWHP car that I could use daily-pull in fill with pump an go. Also another real world result when I changed turbos and nothing else on the car was I had postive boost at 2600rpm with the T60-1-Ptrim-(.96AR) and it is 2700rpm with the T66-Ptrim-(.70AR). I had people telling me in theory the T66 would be at least 500rpm worse than the T60-1. That is in 4th gear flat road. I think the smaller turbos may suit specific needs of some events (autoX) but the mid size turbos rule for versatility. The other big initial thing noticed was how tourqey the car is with the mid size turbo and I found it easier to drive fast than with the T60-1 as a result. I just don't see the point in limiting yourself to the smaller turbos unless you have a specific requirement that they only can fullfill. Cheers Phil
    Turbonetics 72mm/.81AR Q-Trim - HKS 264's - Apexi Power FC + Datalogit sys LM1 - Twin pumps Sard 800cc Inj + FPR - Meth Inj - HKS SS BOV x 2 - 95mm HKS Super Dragger - RPS Carbon, TRD, TRUST, CUSCO, C-WEST, MOMO, STILLWAY SEQ SHIFTER.

  8. #57
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    yorkshire UK
    Age
    46
    Posts
    180
    damn it! all these turbo naming conventions get confusing after a while.

    latte, uv got pm

  9. #58
    RRev Motorsports Latteboost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Portland OR
    Posts
    668
    I agree about the midsized over the small turbo, that is why I am currently using the GT40, I do recognize that something is up with my setup. I believe that is either the wastegate (turbonetics that is rated to 400 hp) or possibly a leaky blowoff valve. During my next break I am switching to HKS manifold and wastegate and 4 in exhaust and will post the results, I am hoping for better midrange and 700rwhp.

  10. #59
    SupraForums Member BADABING's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    702
    Originally posted by silvino
    Those tests you run are in a controlled environment right? What about when that turbo is running that hot oil back into the motor or helping heat up that coolant? Are you saying it doesn't matter what efficiency range the turbo is at in regards to how much heat it shares with the motor's oil and coolant?
    No I'm not saying that. You're right it definitely does. I guess I missed the point of the discussion. I thought we were talking about damaging just the turbo.

    The problem you're referring to is a heat rejection issue caused by running with a hot turbo, and by hot turbo I assume you mean hot EGT's and compressor out temps. Then it really comes down to how good your coolers are. To me it sounds like if you're oil temps and coolant temps get too hot by switching to a different turbo then your coolers are simply not good enough OR you are running in an EXTREMELY inefficient zone of a turbo. Also by coolers I don't just mean oil cooler and radiator. The intercooler is also very important here.

    If eyefi is trying to get 600hp (~500rwhp) then with decent coolers it should be very possible with the GT35R. At that point you are still at a pretty efficient part of that compressor map. Yes you would probably reject less heat with a T66 at the same condition but you would sacrifice spool (that is assuming the GT35R out spools the T66). Anyway, I'm pretty ignorant of what "circuit" racing is. Do you stay at peak power the whole race? Do you slow down and speed up all the time like road racing? If spool matters I would get the fastest spooling turbo that still provides you with your desired power in a fairly efficient zone. If it doesn't then get the bigger turbo that runs cooler, if that is a concern.

    Either way I would think that you track guys would have coolers up the wazoo with decent safety factors that should cover even a few hundred degree swings in turbine and compressor temperatures and their consequential heat rejection to the engine. I know I would. And if you don't then I definitely agree with Silvino, take a hit in spool to make things easier on engine.

    Also, to answer your first question, we run both controlled and uncontrolled tests. Part of my job is also to validate the engines and vehicles cooling packages.

    Surge...

    Whether the turbo surges or not depends on the turbos boost (airflow) characteristics on a given engine. For example, on a 3.0L 2JZGTE if you hit 20psi at 3000RPM you end up with a 2.5 pressure ratio and about 24lb/min of flow. If you look that up on the GT35R compressor map that point falls to the left of the map and will most likely surge. But if you hit 20psi at 4000RPM then you got a 2.5 PR and 31lb/min which falls inside the compressor map and no surge happens. With the GT35R I don't think you'll hit full boost before 4000RPM so like stated by Latteboost, you should not have a surge problem. There is a lot more to it than the example I just gave but we really can't do any extremely accurate calculations without knowing the flow characteristics of that turbo on that engine. Unfortunately that means putting the turbo on the engine and running it on a dyno.

    To be honest even in my business with all of the engineers I work with including Garrett, we really can't accurately determine when surge will happen until the turbo goes on an engine. There are some great simulation programs that give us very close estimates but at the end of the day we bolt it on and run it to see what happens.

  11. #60
    SupraForums Member silvino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    San Jose, Ca.
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,165
    Cooling isn't easy in a Supra. You just can't keep stacking coolers on the car and that's the issue. People with front mounts already have cooling issues pop up and it's not an easy task to solve without some trade offs which is why turbos like the GT35R look like less of a 550--600whp solution. I agree the turbo would be fine at 500whp but unless you're autocrossing I don't think the spool is worth the power limitation. This is why I usually say that the PTE67 ptrim looks like a nice comprimise between power and spool. If I can get over 1 bar by 4K rpms in 4th then my same setup should see 2-300RPMs less lag on a ptrim.

    Badabing, I'd expect to make full boost on this turbo by LOW 3K RPMs.

    I still look forward to any real world GT35R data anyone else comes up with. Don't let all my jibbering sound like I don't think it's a good idea to try.

    Sil

    Originally posted by BADABING
    No I'm not saying that. You're right it definitely does. I guess I missed the point of the discussion. I thought we were talking about damaging just the turbo.

    The problem you're referring to is a heat rejection issue caused by running with a hot turbo, and by hot turbo I assume you mean hot EGT's and compressor out temps. Then it really comes down to how good your coolers are. To me it sounds like if you're oil temps and coolant temps get too hot by switching to a different turbo then your coolers are simply not good enough OR you are running in an EXTREMELY inefficient zone of a turbo. Also by coolers I don't just mean oil cooler and radiator. The intercooler is also very important here.

    If eyefi is trying to get 600hp (~500rwhp) then with decent coolers it should be very possible with the GT35R. At that point you are still at a pretty efficient part of that compressor map. Yes you would probably reject less heat with a T66 at the same condition but you would sacrifice spool (that is assuming the GT35R out spools the T66). Anyway, I'm pretty ignorant of what "circuit" racing is. Do you stay at peak power the whole race? Do you slow down and speed up all the time like road racing? If spool matters I would get the fastest spooling turbo that still provides you with your desired power in a fairly efficient zone. If it doesn't then get the bigger turbo that runs cooler, if that is a concern.

    Either way I would think that you track guys would have coolers up the wazoo with decent safety factors that should cover even a few hundred degree swings in turbine and compressor temperatures and their consequential heat rejection to the engine. I know I would. And if you don't then I definitely agree with Silvino, take a hit in spool to make things easier on engine.

    Also, to answer your first question, we run both controlled and uncontrolled tests. Part of my job is also to validate the engines and vehicles cooling packages.

    Surge...

    Whether the turbo surges or not depends on the turbos boost (airflow) characteristics on a given engine. For example, on a 3.0L 2JZGTE if you hit 20psi at 3000RPM you end up with a 2.5 pressure ratio and about 24lb/min of flow. If you look that up on the GT35R compressor map that point falls to the left of the map and will most likely surge. But if you hit 20psi at 4000RPM then you got a 2.5 PR and 31lb/min which falls inside the compressor map and no surge happens. With the GT35R I don't think you'll hit full boost before 4000RPM so like stated by Latteboost, you should not have a surge problem. There is a lot more to it than the example I just gave but we really can't do any extremely accurate calculations without knowing the flow characteristics of that turbo on that engine. Unfortunately that means putting the turbo on the engine and running it on a dyno.

    To be honest even in my business with all of the engineers I work with including Garrett, we really can't accurately determine when surge will happen until the turbo goes on an engine. There are some great simulation programs that give us very close estimates but at the end of the day we bolt it on and run it to see what happens.
    Last edited by silvino; 11-04-2004 at 04:10 PM.

  12. #61
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    yorkshire UK
    Age
    46
    Posts
    180
    im using the term circuit racing to b the same as yr road racing i think. it's laping a twisty track like silverstone or brands hatch or Laguna Seca as fast as u can. lots of braking and accelerating. sorry im not up on many american tracks, its been a while since i had gt3 on the playstation

    is autox the same as rally?

    u guys just have funny names for stuff

  13. #62
    SupraForums Member silvino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    San Jose, Ca.
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,165
    Our open track racing is usually multiple 30 minute sessions of flying around a track like Laguna, Sears Point, Thunderhill, Willow Springs, etc.

    AutoX is typically done in parking lots setup with cones and is usually is a much tighter course where lower speeds occur as well as brief sessions. It's still a nice learning experience but is tough on laggy cars and tires that need to be warmed up before becoming pretty sticky.

    Originally posted by eyefi
    im using the term circuit racing to b the same as yr road racing i think. it's laping a twisty track like silverstone or brands hatch or Laguna Seca as fast as u can. lots of braking and accelerating. sorry im not up on many american tracks, its been a while since i had gt3 on the playstation

    is autox the same as rally?

    u guys just have funny names for stuff

  14. #63
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    yorkshire UK
    Age
    46
    Posts
    180
    ok, thanks.

  15. #64
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Shanghai
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,283
    Originally posted by silvino
    Isn't that VE a little high for the average car?
    Above .9 is reasonable for a modern boosted car. You probably wont see over 1 like on a NA car, but .93 is ok.

    As for turbos the saying a 35R is better/worse than a T66 is far too general. There are numerous compressor wheels for the GT35. In fact the 82mm is a little big for the turbine. The 71mm is a better match. In 52 trim that works out to be ~52mm inducer diameter. Even with that it is probably good for 500hp. The GT4088 would probably be a better comparison. In 52trim that works to a 63mm inlet. I believe that is what Latteboost is running. Now, I do also believe it to be capable of 700whp maybe more. I don't know of many/any other 63mm turbos doing that. Of course I don't have a dyno to prove it....yet .

    One more thing to consider is how Garrett is attacking the aftermarket...or the way they really aren't. It just isn't that big of a market in comparison to production vehicles. They are trying and it is growing, but I don't know that it will ever be as big as other companies. Seeing a Garrett turbo running well on a supra doesn't exactly make you want to go buy a chevy truck because of the turbo.

    Daniel

  16. #65
    SupraForums Member silvino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    San Jose, Ca.
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,165
    Daniel, there is such thing as off the shelf GT35R's which we were talking about, not custom.

  17. #66
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Shanghai
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,283
    I believe the off the shelf versions use the 71mm wheel.

  18. #67
    SupraForums Member silvino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    San Jose, Ca.
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,165
    It's a 61.5mm inducer if you want to compare apples to apples.

  19. #68
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Shanghai
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,283
    I am guessing that to get a 61.5mm inlet you are reffering to a 56trim 82mm wheel which is really too big for that turbine. The 71mm wheel is the intended wheel for the GT35. You can run the 82mm, but it won't be as efficient.

    Daniel

  20. #69
    SupraForums Member silvino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    San Jose, Ca.
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,165
    If you order a "vanilla" GT35R, this is what you'll get. Garret suggests this turbo for motors 3.L to 4.5L. The newer GT turbos seem a little different size wise but that's the current trend is it seems.

    Originally posted by SupraWood
    I am guessing that to get a 61.5mm inlet you are reffering to a 56trim 82mm wheel which is really too big for that turbine. The 71mm wheel is the intended wheel for the GT35. You can run the 82mm, but it won't be as efficient.

    Daniel

  21. #70
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    398
    GT35R 82mm compressor 56 trim .7 A/R, 68mm turbine, 84 trim either .82 or 1.06 A/R

    GT40R: 88mm compressor 52 trim .58 A/R, 77mm turbine with 78 trim, .95 or 1.06 A/R

    Both have a 4" compressor inlet and 3" turbine outlet.

    I've worked on the basis that on 93 pump gas you could get 20psi in the manifold. With a 2psi drop across the air filter and a 2 psi drop across the IC that would be a 2.7 pressure ratio. With no drops a 2.4.

    Using 6700rpm, .95 VE, .7 IC efficency, .7 compressor efficency, for a 3 liter motor I find a need for 55 lb/min.

    The Garrett flow map shows the GT35R hitting just under 60lb/min at that pressure ratio. The GT40R, where I've only found an unlabeled compressor map at atpturbo, can produce over 65lb/min at that pressure ratio, enough for 7500rpm.

    The GT35R will hit the surge line at about 3800 rpm., the GT40R at about the same point.

    Higher compressor efficencies, water injection, or high IC efficency would raise the flow requirement.

    Question: is water cooling and titanium impellers available in these models?

    It seems the tradeoff if primarily in spinning the bigger wheels.

    David
    94 Supra TT 6-speed...bought new in '94
    Other Stuff: 05 E320 CDI, '04 S2000, '10 QX56, '97 Port City Offset Fab Chassis Late Model, '38 Buick Special

  22. #71
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Shanghai
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,283
    Why do you want titanium? It really only helps with fatigue failures, and high heat capabilities....niether of which really are of concern in the aftermarket. I am relatively positive you can get them with water cooling.

    I need to do a little research before I make any more comments about the 35R. I think you will find the 4088 to be more efficient at 20psi, but that is a bit of a guess.

    Daniel

  23. #72
    SupraForums Member silvino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    San Jose, Ca.
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,165
    We usually compare inducer size and not exducer (which you're referring to). I just wanted to clarify for those who haven't understood that yet. 61.4mm inducer and 82mm exducer.

    A reference point on the compressor wheel:
    T61 is a 60.5mm inducer and 90mm exducer.

    Sil

    Originally posted by David (NJ)
    GT35R 82mm compressor 56 trim .7 A/R, 68mm turbine, 84 trim either .82 or 1.06 A/R

    GT40R: 88mm compressor 52 trim .58 A/R, 77mm turbine with 78 trim, .95 or 1.06 A/R

    Both have a 4" compressor inlet and 3" turbine outlet.

    I've worked on the basis that on 93 pump gas you could get 20psi in the manifold. With a 2psi drop across the air filter and a 2 psi drop across the IC that would be a 2.7 pressure ratio. With no drops a 2.4.

    Using 6700rpm, .95 VE, .7 IC efficency, .7 compressor efficency, for a 3 liter motor I find a need for 55 lb/min.

    The Garrett flow map shows the GT35R hitting just under 60lb/min at that pressure ratio. The GT40R, where I've only found an unlabeled compressor map at atpturbo, can produce over 65lb/min at that pressure ratio, enough for 7500rpm.

    The GT35R will hit the surge line at about 3800 rpm., the GT40R at about the same point.

    Higher compressor efficencies, water injection, or high IC efficency would raise the flow requirement.

    Question: is water cooling and titanium impellers available in these models?

    It seems the tradeoff if primarily in spinning the bigger wheels.

    David

  24. #73
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Shanghai
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,283
    silvino is correct, but I believe this to be a bad idea. While the inducer is important the exducer diameter is more important. The reason for this is it is possible to have a small trim large wheel to have a similar inducer diameter as a large trim small wheel. They will not performe the same. I think it is a better idea to get people talking about the exducer diameter and what trim they have.

    FWIW, the more I think about it the more I think you guys are probably correct about the 35R compressor. I have been told this is a good off the shelf turbo, and everything points to the 82mm wheel. Sorry for the confusion silvino.

    Daniel

  25. #74
    SupraForums Member silvino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    San Jose, Ca.
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,165
    It would still be good to hear from more folks with detailed information on their experience with power, spool and such. I still think that the real world info we have right now is pretty limited. I wish I had had more time and money to keep this turbo and have tried it before selling it .

  26. #75
    SupraForums Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    somewhere cold
    Age
    46
    Posts
    181
    I have a BL T61/GT35 on my VVti 2JZ-GTE. It's early days as I am still tuning, but so far I have no apparent surge issues, andthe car has made 23psi in 6th @ 3280 rpm. Will update when more testing has been done
    Regards
    TAZ

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts