Opinions/Comments On The Good/Bad Of Converting N/A Supra's To 2JZ-GTE's...

[Track Addict]

Seems like there have been mixed feelings amongst the Supra Community lately on the topic of converting an N/A Supra to a Twin Turbo Supra. A lot of Non-Turbo owners that I speak to have always said at some point they have considered swapping out their engine for the 2JZ-GTE engine. Also, along with that switch, comes the transmission and all the other necessary components to create a 'factory looking' Twin Turbo Supra.
Some of the pro's to doing this swap include obviously a faster car, a 6-speed for those who prefer a manual transmission, upgrading the brake calipers, etc. etc...
As for the cons, things like the car not being a Twin Turbo from the factory can hurt the re-sale value if you try to sell it, since the VIN will show the car was originally an N/A Supra. Other things such as the engine itself, like if it was originally a JDM engine, or a U.S. Spec engine...
I have noted several clean complete swaps that, to the naked eye, would make it difficult to determine whether or not it was originally an N/A Supra. One in particular is Steve Wilson's Red Supra. The car is beautiful, and I was completely fooled when I saw it in person. Thinking it was a TT Supra, I began asking the typical questions about his car, and then it was revealed that the car was originally a factory Non-Turbo!!!
So bascially what I'd like to do is ask for people's opinions or comments about the +/- about doing this, since a lot of us will be holding on to our cars for a while. People always tell you "if you want a TT Supra, sell your N/A and get one." They are implying that the conversion isn't worth it. I believe otherwise, and if some of our more respected members such as Ken and Steve could pitch in on this topic, I think a lot of Supra owners, myself included, could be enlightened what many of us have been wondering for quite some time...

[mignuts]

Seems as if owning an MKIV N/A makes those owners of TT Supras more superior when negative comments like "you drive a celica?" or "That's not a supra without a 2jz-gte" are spread throughout different threads. N/A Supra owners feel just as privileged, if not more, by owning a Supra. And for the ones looking to swap engines, why can't they be held in the same regard as owners of factory TT Supras? I think it's a bunch of crap, but hey, maybe I just don't know any better. I say if you got cash, and you want to go TT from the start, do it. If an NA wants to pop a GTE engine under the hood, more power to him or her...

[Brown Duckz]

Originally posted by mignuts
If an NA wants to pop a GTE engine under the hood, more power to him or her...

I feel the same way.. I don't particular like the way some people look down on NA owners for the simple fact that they aren't boosted. All in all.. you own the same build of car.

[KenHenderson]

First off, I don't buy into bagging on NA guys just because their cars are not the GTE version. I've seen some very clean NAs, the thread starter's and another Cali resident, kevganzon's immediately spring to mind, that put to shame many GTEs I've seen. My love for the Supra is not based upon whether the car is a GE or a GTE, but on the basic goodness of the chassis and what it represented at the time of its release and even now almost 14 years later. Plus, except for the commonly known differences, the chassis are identical so all of us know what the true potential is of these cars.

Second, as I've noted in similar threads, I don't buy into the conventional wisdom that the NA guys should junk (sell) their cars and "just buy a TT". As supdawg79 has noted, anyone making this comment has never seen Steve Wilson's car. The conversion is so genuine and comprehensive that, if he didn't tell you the car was originally an NA, you wouldn't be able to tell with about being a VIN guru. I believe the decision to go NA-T or purchase a GTE outright is a case by case analysis.

If I had an oh-so-clean, pristine, one-owner, hardtop NA chassis like Steve Wilson, I'm almost sure I would have taken the same approach he did, and that was more than three years ago. In the intervening period of time, more GTEs have been beat on, lost to accidents and converted to race cars, to the point that real clean GTEs are not nearly as common as they once were. Certainly, if the budget and car are available, it is easier to just go out and purchase the GTE of your dreams, but the cost of these swaps, as more and more have occurred, have come down significantly. And, for the DIYers, the overall cost is way below what a good shop will charge for the same work.

I find it ironic that the Lexus SC and GS guys, and even an occasional LS guy, are generally praised for their GTE conversions but the NA Supra guys, who already have the car, are shrugged off with the all too common recommendation of buying a genuine GTE. Yes, the VIN will show the car as originally an NA but I can tell you from personal knowledge that, if the car and the work is of the highest quality like Steve's, that has not mattered to guys wishing to purchase his car (it's not for sale, btw). Clearly, if a guy is a collector and looking at these cars as investments, he will purchase a GTE and not mod it at all, but the vast majority of us are not in this category.

I may be wrong, but I'm generally of the opinion that there are more high quality GE chassis available than GTEs, and possibly more hardtops available as well. The point of all this is each person has to review and analyze their individual circumstances to determine what course of action is best for them. For me, if I already had a great GE chassis, I'd think long and hard before I got rid of it to purchase a GTE. However, if my GE chassis was junk, I might tend to confine my search to factory GTEs and hope to get lucky in my search. Just my $.02 on this issue. Hope it helps.

Ken.

[HotSoup]

Well said Ken! I have NEVER downed any of the n/a guys and actually thought about the n/a=TT thing myself. Cost equaled out so I ended up finding my TT. A Supra is a Supra whether it is boosted or not, I respect the car as much as the engine.

Jason

[Track Addict]

It has been noted that the portrayal of the N/A Supra as being a Celica is all in good fun...But for those who sacrifice and save to buy these cars, it should not come without surprise that TT Supra owners are very righteous about their cars. I feel owning a TT Supra from the factory is an exclusive event, and the car is a piece of automotive history, but as Ken has stated, not many Supra owners are of the mind-state of collecting the car and keeping it in it's original state. That being said, many Supra enthusiasts find the tuning capabilities and exclusivity of the car to be so worth having, it won't matter which version they buy, if the overall intent is to modify the car into a higher state than it is originally equipped with.
I would like to know how much and why modifying an N/A to a complete TT Supra, as Steve Wilson has, would be looked at as such a bad deal? Does it not qualify as authentic? Same parts, same car...I don't understand. Maybe someone here can make me understand the contrast here between the two...

[PM Supra]

Here is my reply.

624 rwhp on my stock NA motor

[LexISpooled]

2jzge is one the most underrated motors

[Tatanko]

Originally posted by LexISpooled
2jzge is one the most underrated motors

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Yeah, people look down on it because it's not the same as a GTE, but, it still obviously has a lot of potential. I dunno, maybe my opinion is really biased since I'm "in the know" lol

As Bob (BlackSupra93) once said to me, NA Supra's (stock) could almost be seen as superior to TT's these days because they tend to be in better condition than TT's. Take that nice condition chassis and stick a GTE in it or turbo the GE and you have yourself a real nice Supra that would have otherwise been harder to find in TT form.


The Geo Metro inline-3.....now THAT thing is underrated

[KenHenderson]

Originally posted by PM Supra
Here is my reply.

624 rwhp on my stock NA motor

And what a reply it is!! Damn, Chris. I missed your original post. VERY NICE work as always.

Ken.

[Roshan]

There's a 350z not far from me doing nearly 400rwhp on a supercharger. Perhaps look into SCs.

[Tatanko]

Originally posted by Roshan
There's a 350z not far from me doing nearly 400rwhp on a supercharger. Perhaps look into SCs.

That would be a waste of the inline setup of the engine, IMO.

[Brown Duckz]

Originally posted by Tatanko
That would be a waste of the inline setup of the engine, IMO.

Yeh it would..

[LexISpooled]

Originally posted by Tatanko
I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Yeah, people look down on it because it's not the same as a GTE, but, it still obviously has a lot of potential. I dunno, maybe my opinion is really biased since I'm "in the know" lol

As Bob (BlackSupra93) once said to me, NA Supra's (stock) could almost be seen as superior to TT's these days because they tend to be in better condition than TT's. Take that nice condition chassis and stick a GTE in it or turbo the GE and you have yourself a real nice Supra that would have otherwise been harder to find in TT form.


The Geo Metro inline-3.....now THAT thing is underrated

I would, why b/c if you look at other car forums whenever the discussion of supra/sc300/is300 and NA platform in the same breath comes up right away nearly everyone says too bad he doesnt have a swap/gte....Or THATS WHY YOU WON, so on and so forth. SO yes I believe the NA 2jz is underrated with the few people on this board who truly know what it is capable of.

[Tatanko]

Originally posted by LexISpooled
I would, why b/c if you look at other car forums whenever the discussion of supra/sc300/is300 and NA platform in the same breath comes up right away nearly everyone says too bad he doesnt have a swap/gte....Or THATS WHY YOU WON, so on and so forth. SO yes I believe the NA 2jz is underrated with the few people on this board who truly know what it is capable of.

Alright, I can understand what you're getting at. I guess I don't spend enough time on other forums

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Roshan
There's a 350z not far from me doing nearly 400rwhp on a supercharger. Perhaps look into SCs.

With the amount of money you put into a custom supercharger system you can have a more reliable and powerful turbo kit.

[Arizona]

I have a lexus sc with a swap. If I was ever going to buy a supra(prolly will) I would buy and a N/A. Your options are a little bigger depending on how you look at it. If you bought a gte you go through all the setups that others have tried and so on.(this isnt bad thats what im doing with my lex) If I bought an N/a I could turbo it, 2jzgte swap, 1jzgte swap, lexus v8, 3sgte,. Good variety on a cheaper chassis. Yes you could do this with a gte supra. BUT why mess with the best. Just my 2cents I lok at all angles of car I suppose.

[Supra SONIC]

Turbo or Swap or buy a tt???

I think the question comes down to the individual. Take myself for an example. I am the type of person that likes to be working on my car all the time; it's my hobby, so without a project I am bored. Also, I am not of the financial position to spend a lot at once, so for me small chunks of money and power "stages" is what I do. As such is the case, I am doing a TT swap keeping the stock 5speed because A) I don't want to save for a TT and be out of a project and B) because I don't have the funds to do the whole swap. Also, I am the sort the doesn't have high hp goals in mind; 300-350whp to start and 450whp someday. Thus, I can have stages where in a few years I'll swap in the 6speed and up the boost.

But off of me... The turbo kit is best for those wanting more power... The swap is best for those wanting smog legal boost, a cleaner looking engine, a better platform for a turbo, reasonable access to the spark plugs, no distributor, doesn't have major money, etc... The "sell the car and save for a TT" is better for those without the "project need" that I have and for those wanting big hp numbers. Now, you can get big numbers from the stock na with a single turbo kit and a built/swapped tranny, evidence is DaveH, etc, but I believe that in the end the TT will have been a better choice. That is all I have.

[Supra SONIC]

Oh, I forgot something. Insurance is cheaper. I don't know by how much, but if you consider that then the money you save over the years by going with an NA can go towards the swap.

[DTSupra30]

this question goes through my mind every day at least 1000 times. Now what should I do? Sell? Swap? or Turbo? Thats the question. Now Ken actually added some enlightment to my never ending battle against my self, and I am aboustly in love with my car i would never sell it, i have put too much money into it already anyhow, so selling it was out of the question to begin with kindof, LOL. But i have a very clean N/A hardtop 5 speed, minus the gayside kit. So with that it mind, with in the year or in a year and half, im looking to go TT/6speed+ BPU+ with a whole new look on the outside(never been done i think this set up will be sick and hyst being able to say yea it was an n/a once, is alot cooler i think


Matt

[DTSupra30]

Originally posted by supdawg79
Check out Steve Wilson's car on t04r.com's website. He did what you are planning to do, and my friend, if your car turns out as clean as his did, you will be one of the 'lucky' ones. Hardtop...TT...6-speed...Fast...You get my drift here, right?

O i get your "drift" hehe, i have such a plan you have no idea, wether or not it goes accordling is a question of time and money, just as life is

Matt

[SupraTico]

yeah quite a few people have done this lately... and still others are in their final planning stages..

when i got my NA i had to get it in a hurry cause i had wrecked my 88... due to a short credit history @ 20 years of age getting financing was very hard, even with me putting down 10g's from insurance and my savings.

my MKIV had 47k miles, it was a baby.. by the time 3 yrs had passed and i had just about paid it off i was already thinking of selling and going for a TT.. but then all these parts basically fell from the sky to convert my car to a TT, about 80% of the parts needed within the span of a month or two... I was really looking forward to converting since nobody had done that before (a TT conversion, not a swap) and the thought of going to a higher mileage TT in unknown condition kinda scared me.

I'm very happy with my conversion, I had a lot of fun doing it and the satisfaction was so much greater after doing it myself than if I had just bought a TT. Only thing it's missing from a factory TT is my rear TT brakes and the 6spd/diff. I'm going to be putting in a 6spd, but I plan on going single and blowing up my tranny before I change it. I want to see how much it can take.

oh yeah, and everyone I tell that it used to be an NA is amazed by it and gives me mad props

[Track Addict]

So how long did your conversion take to complete?

[SupraTico]

i believe i started at the very end of feb. or beginning of march 02. i got the car started mid april.

it took so long because i was juggling final exams, work, girlfriend and spring break. waiting for some parts which I broke or found out were different on the TT and I had to special order also set me back a couple weeks. keep in mind nobody had done what I was doing so I was venturing into unknown territory lol I felt like a pioneer.

I'd say you can knock this project out in a week or week and a half at most if you have a parts list and don't break anything.

[Supra SONIC]

I should be done with my swap in a few weeks, assuming nothing comes up preventing me from buying a harness... which has been the hardest part to buy/find used, so I am buying a new one.

I have gone NA to NA-T to NA and to TT in a few weeks, and from that I can say that going TT is probably much better than NA-T.

TT benefits:

--Easy to change plugs
--More attractive engine
--Intercooler pipes are shorter
--Pipes don't run right over the turbo
--Less restrictive MAF
--Better engine components
--More aftermarket components for sale
--ECU understands boost and larger injectors

If you look at mkivsoopra who, just dynoed his car after his swap, he is making around 350whp from the stock engine with exhaust as his only mod. I made around 280whp with exhaust and Apexi AFC dynotuned at 8psi on a pt52... this was all about 3500-3750 without a clutch... so 4000 with a clutch, and in the end the car doesn't have great responce from the long ic pipes (seen as a dip in the power band) and the car stalled all the time if I didn't drive it carefully; all this besides the fact that my car is short some 70rwhp compared to wkivsoopra (mostly due to the lack of the 2psi).

Now, if I wanted to push the limits of the w58 tranny, to say 450hp I would need larger injectors and a way to control them for the NA; the common solution is the lexus v8 maf and the vpc/afc combo and a boost controller. And I have heard that this is the best, but not a great solution. On the TT, just bpu will get you there, and you will be running better with fewer engine problems/issues, IMO. Again, IMO, at this point (450hp) a motor swap at bpu levels is about the same as going NA-T at those HP figures.

IMO, higher hp numbers actually favor the TT. I may be mistaken, but the stock TT's ecu can understand up to 850cc injectors, where the NA can only understand 440's, right? Besides that, and this is just anecdotal, but it seems that NA's above 450hp are having to do custom tb and intake manifolds and standalones, and many TT's don't.

I could be way off here, but the TT is just set up better for boost, mechanically and electronically, so in the end the NA-T vs. TT swap just favors the TT swap IMO.

PS. In a project car the NA is cheaper because you can pick up an NA engine for less than 500 with ecu and harness, and a TT engine will go for 10 times that.