Talk about being greedy, sheesh. This test alone sucked up a decent amount of everyone's time. Maybe doing it again later on with the 5" exhausts and on a more "high end" power setup would make more sense but I vote for an intake manifold challenge before another exhaust test. That would be MUCH more interesting use of their time.
Originally Posted by ToMuchBoost
^^^^Thanks, Sil, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. ToMuchBoost, the owner of SP Engineering is a personal friend of mine. Even though I offered to offset some of his costs, he would have none of it. That said, I'm not going to take advantage of our friendship by asking him to donate company resources free of charge for another test. I've done it twice now and, if I were to ever do something like this again, it would be under different circumstances. We took up an entire day, dodging various UPS, Fed-Ex and SPE trucks making deliveries at the SPE "dyno" door and using its top two techs.
More specifically, we do not plan on dynoing these exhausts on 600 whp, 700 whp and 800 whp cars. That would be 45 dyno runs on three separate cars, btw, not something that could be done in one day nor donated free of charge. I noted in the article the car had already made as much as 813 whp on the dyno (with the GReddy Evo II, I might add), and that it was dynoed in its STREET tune (with no tuning allowed). We think the results are valid for cars at various horsepower levels. One of the reasons why we included such detail in the article is to provide a methodological road map of sorts for those who might want to emulate this test with the same, or other, exhausts on other cars.
Ken.
If nobody can guess the order of the exhaust from the first 2 pics, their in this order from left to right:
Greddy, WOTM, Boostlogic, Horsepowerfreaks, HKS
Last edited by ruup2it; 05-10-2005 at 05:54 PM.
KEN, YOU'VE DONE IT AGAIN !!......Superb writing and great care taken by you and all involved in making it a 'controlled' test...I agree with you in keeping the boost level realistic and a 'street tune'. Just a couple questions I'd like to ask the panel (Ken, Ammo, ruup2it)>>>
1. Which exhaust is the best 'BANG for the BUCK'
2. Which canister looks most BADASS !
3. Which one has the best Fit & Finish...
These questions will help me make my final decision on my next exhaust purchase !!...Living in NYC, you'll get a noise pollution ticket for any exhaust louder than my trusty old APEX NI !!
...however, I will be relocating to FL in Dec. and anything goes !! No yearly emissions tests required also
Keep up the excellent work gentlemen !!
Hughie.....NYC
T78 4ROW RPS TWIN C/C HK$ 264'S HK$ Titanium Q45 TB AEM EMS ETC & A DOSE OF BLING !!
Featured in FEB 05 MODIFIED MAG !!
http://www.cardomain.com/id/yb2fast
03 LEXUS SC430 (PRL WHT/SADDLE) sittin' on 20's & exhaust !
07 NISMO 350Z HR (PIKES PEAK WHITE) HK$ HI-TI TEINS SPC CAMBER KIT VOLK GTS GLOSS BLK (READY 2 BOOST IT !)
I wouldn't want to be biased, in replying in this thread.
So YB2fast you got PM.
Decisions should be up to each individual's preference, and experience.
If the manufacturers like to give their thoughts of their exhaust being more superior, they're more than welcome to. If there are those who have any of these exhausts like to chime in on their experience and how they like their exhaust they're more than welcome as well.
I'm happy with my Greddy exhaust, and I have no complaints. Sound, fitment, and look is good to me, but like others may have suggested some adjustments could be done for better fitment. Although there was one that rumbled very nicely during the test that stood out a little with my setup, maybe with another setup would be different. My comment on sound clips to me seems to be only as helpful as how loud your PC speakers are, and not really listening to these in person. Good luck with your decisions guys.
I must say the HKS Ti is what the majority is sporting, probably due to its earlier availablity to all the others. From the 4in exhaust poll, that's probably why the poll also showed it's the most preferred. But there are those selling their's used. Who knows what they're thinking.
Last edited by ruup2it; 05-12-2005 at 01:28 AM.
Thanks ruup2it,
I got your PM !! Thanks for your input !!
Hughie....NYC
Probably the best and most comprehensive exhaust write-up ever!
Ju-Hon,I've really been delayed in posting in this thread.
I'd like to say that I was real fortunate to have been part of this shootout and really appreciate the effort of Ken, Ammo, and SP Engineering. Being that we were also really fortunate to have all these exhausts at our disposal from Boostlogic, Horsepowerfreaks, and WOTM. Not having any one of these wouldn't have made this test as complete as it is. So thanks to these great guys as well.
I do have to admit this test would not have been as such if it was done by anyone else other than Ken Henderson himself. Having already done "Clash of the Titans I," and showing his very thorough testing methods, to ensure its fairness is probably why these manufacturers trusts the results. Anyone else may not be able to put this together like he did, and may result in having just partial results. With Ken's intention of bringing such quality work for the community is what other's trust that only he can. Not to mention the extensive informative write-up to give each exhaust their fair share of credit, reminding me so much of a term paper.
Furthermore, Ken showed great concern for my car and its limits, to make sure I was comfortable in all of the testing protocols. Having recently purchased his previous built shortblock and seeing the quality of each piston, rod, and build myself (800 hp, 4-5K miles max and still looking brand new) really gave me great confidence in running higher #'s but his concern for producing consistent #'s was of greater concern. After considering for awhile myself, for those that drives their cars on the streets, or having smaller turbos may find our results more useful rather than those with extraordinarily higher hp, or boost levels.
The testing day when we met at SP Engineering didn't feel like work at all but a leisure day, and more like a car meet at that, discussing and learning all day from Jason, Ken, and Anthony. We ourselves, were looking forward to seeing the results at the end of the day so we could know if there was really any dramatic differences, if any. But after laying all the exhausts side by side after the 1st dyno run, we could actually see the closeness of the outcome already. They all roared really well and not at all ear piercing which we were expecting, thinking our ears would be ringing at the end, but they're all quality pieces and like the test showed, you really can't go wrong with any one of these. I had alot of fun helping out.
Thanks for all the kind words everyone.
P.S. I'll have weight for the Greddy within the next 2 days for those that are concerned, just haven't had a chance yet.
Thanks so much for the very kind words, my friend. I truly believe that, between you, AMMO, and Jason and Hiro at SPE, I could not have had a better group of guys to work with. Everybody in the group was willing to go the extra mile and everyone was committed to excellence. It was a great experience for me and one I'll never forget. Let me know when you get that bad boy weighed.
Ken.
Hughie, my NYC brotha, thanks so much for the kind words. I'm glad you're feeling better these days after your bout with the flu. Of the questions you listed, only the first one, IMO, is easily answered. I think, clearly, the GReddy is the best bang for the buck. It does have mild steel piping, but I have to believe this is not all that important to many prospective buyers. The GReddy canister is of very high quality and up to its usual standard.KEN, YOU'VE DONE IT AGAIN !!
1. Which exhaust is the best 'BANG for the BUCK'
2. Which canister looks most BADASS !
3. Which one has the best Fit & Finish...
These questions will help me make my final decision on my next exhaust purchase !!
Keep up the excellent work gentlemen !!
Hughie.....NYC
As to the most bad ass looks and best fit and finish, these are more subjective issues which depend in large part on who's doing the gazing. In my eleven years of ownership, I have had two different HKS exhausts, including my ti, two different GReddy exhausts and the VeilSide ti. I have always been partial to GReddy and HKS exhausts, but it all depends on what type of "look" the purchaser is after. What works for me might not work for someone else. I know it sounds like a cop out, but this is really how I see it. As noted many times now, you can't go wrong with any of them. Put it this way: ALL of them will look GREAT on your black beast! Good luck in your upcoming move to Florida.
Ken.
mr2JZ-gte, SuprattJay, MKIV Aspirant, David S, Silver94Supra, RSA Supra, 93dawg and Eggy, thanks for the very kind words. I do not take them for granted and thanks as well for reading the entire article. It feels great to have provided this service to the community.
Ken.
Ken,
Thanks for your opinions !! The Greddy is starting to sound mighty tempting !
Hughie...NYC
First, I would like to say that I was very impressed that the article was written similar in structure to a scientific journal, looks like somebody knows what he is doing.
Second, I was also very impressed at the measures taken to really uphold the scientific process. That in conjunction with the format make an outstanding experiment.
Finally, I would not be one to have skipped right to the results (though the though did occur once or twice
In conclusion, this was a very positive experiment that does show, as AMMO stated, that no one is a loser here. Further, that this same procedure could be followed resulting in different numbers for each, and perhaps, a different "winner". But regardless, I can't say enough about the process taken and the results achieved.
Special thanks for Ken for PMing me to let me know this was up!
Joe
This test was done well. Very organized, well thought out, planned and executed. When I tested the Goliath against the HKS Titanium, the Goliath made more power. I still have a Titanium here and may repeat my testing on video to verify the results.
When we dyno cars here, "especially non- stand alone EMS cars", the dyno will often vary by 10rwhp or more. The fact that the exhausts were as close as they were together (3.6rwhp) was quite amazing.
Irregularities:
1) The dyno graphs show that there was timing being pulled at peak torque (5,500) by the ECU for the HKS, WOTM, Boost Logic and the Goliath. It wasn't pulled on the GReddy because there wasn't enough heat yet in the motor. This resulted in the following 4 exhaust systems yielding lower results on their 2nd and 3rd pulls which made them unusable.
2) The peak hp apeared to spike every pull right as the gas pedal was lifted. The spike was significant as it added approx. 25rwhp in less than 80rpm. A pull taken to an RPM after this hp spike would yield more credible results especially if the spike was not used to determine the peak hp.
3) The peak hp was right at the end of the pull and nearly every pull was stopped at a different rpm varying the results. A pull that was taken to an RPM after peak hp would produce more credible results.
The Goliath came out 0.5 rwhp (0.00072%) behind the next place finisher and 3.6rwhp (0.0055%) behind the first place finisher. With all the variables that I mentioned above, I believe that on any given day, repeating the exact same test in the exact same fashion would eventually result in all of the five exhausts ranking 1st.
Take care,
Chris.
Last edited by ChrisBergemann; 05-17-2005 at 10:39 AM.
Thanks for your patience, guys and gals. For those interested, the weight of the GReddy Evo II was exactly 31 lbs., including all hangers and assorted bracketry.
Ken.
For those who were looking for the official weigh in for the Greddy system, we finally have numbers to post. Sorry for the delay!
Weigh-ins including all mounting hardware:
WOTM - 24.3 lbs
HPF - 24.5 lbs
Boost Logic - 21.5 lbs
HKS Ti - 26 lbs
Greddy - 31 lbs
Thanks,
Anthony
I wonder how much the wall thickness varies on these exhausts. It's not like a HKS Ti has a heavy canister but the piping seem to be heavier. Is it different material or just thicker steel which might be more important to those who have to worry about rusting.
.065 wall.
Only the Greddy will have to worry about mid-term rusting, even with the coating on the outside, it's virtually impossible to powder coat/etc. thoroughly, if that's even posssible.
Stainless etc....are rust resisitant, but not rust proof.
321 is even better for corrosion resistance, but you and I will probably be grandpas before the stainless stuff every rusts through....
just like SPE, they'll sell these exhuast as "new" now. ha.
Is there really that much of a difference in weight compared to my Veilside Ti? I just weighed mine an it was 10.0 lbs with one of the brackets.For those who were looking for the official weigh in for the Greddy system, we finally have numbers to post. Sorry for the delay!
Weigh-ins including all mounting hardware:
WOTM - 24.3 lbs
HPF - 24.5 lbs
Boost Logic - 21.5 lbs
HKS Ti - 26 lbs
Greddy - 31 lbs
Thanks,
Anthony
Jon,
Yes the difference in weight between your VS and the exhausts tested is real. I had a VS before I purchased the HKS ti. Weighed them both at the same time. I wound picking ultimate power production over light weight. Depends on a person's goals and which one best suits their needs and budget.
Ken.
hmmm for me the thing about weight reduction is theres no sense doing any of it unless your going to be doing a lot of it. Why shave 20 lbs here or 30 lbs over there only to continue with the heavy stock seats? Its almost for me like once you start it you have to shave it all within reason. Not to knock any of the exhausts tested for being heavy. Since I also luv the sound of my Veilside I will most likely be keeping this one. Speaking of Veilside my carbon fiber Veilside seats should be here any day now. If Im not mistaken they are off the first boat to hit the states with this new product. They weigh 10 lbs each and when combined with alloy sie brackets make a great combination while we are on the topic of weight reduction. Compared to stock they save a Ton. Even compared to my last set of carbon fiber Cobra's they save a lot since these Veilsides weigh Half what my Cobra's did.
Pics or links?
I will post a pic later tonight, gotta take one.
MKIV Aspirant and Rare, appreciate it if you would stick to the discussion of exhausts. Weight reduction is, generally, a good thing, but there are plenty of other threads about that and I would like to keep this thread focused on exhausts. Thanks.
Ken.
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