brake bleeding through ABS

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  1. #1
    SupraForums Member NeedasupraMKIV's Avatar
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    brake bleeding through ABS

    Hello all,

    I need some serious help. First, my car is an 87 turbo 5 speed. now my problem. The brakes wont bleed out. When I brought the car home it developed an issue where the brakes would fall to the floor and I would have to pump them to stop the car. What I have done so far is, I have bled the brakes and replaced the master. The master was bench bled, and I have bled the brakes from the rear passenger to the rear driver, to the front passenger, to the front driver like 50 times already. The front seems to have great pressure. when I bleed them they shoot out fluid so i dont think they are the problem. The rears are a different story. When I bleed them only a little trickle of fluid comes out and when the brake is pumped I can hear a weezing like there is air in the ABS assembly on the passenger side of the engine bay. How do I bleed the ABS system? It seems that this is the culprit for not allowing any fluid to the rears. and when i start the car to test the breaks out they are just as dead as ever. Could I just disconnect the brake lines that lead to the rear off of the abs and get the air out that way? or is there a way to power bleed them aside from a pressurized system which i dont want to buy if Im only going to use it one time? I know the MKIV's ABS system can be jumped to make the pump work, is there a way to do this on the MKIII?

    Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for the help.

    -Nick
    Last edited by NeedasupraMKIV; 04-05-2006 at 09:32 AM.

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  3. #2
    Supranian chriso's Avatar
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    Good post Nick....I am interested in this as well.

  4. #3
    SupraForums Member NeedasupraMKIV's Avatar
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    thanks....this is driving me crazy right now.......

  5. #4
    Rock'n Death with Spikes! Supranaut's Avatar
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    I've had that problem on several mk3's...and the only cure was to ditch the ABS, just used non ABS brake lines(all lines were under $60) On the Mk4 you're able to purge it...not so for the Mk3's!

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    Let me take a stab at this one.... I too have replaced the master cylinder, bled 'til it could bleed no more, and have had to pump-to-stop for the last couple of months.

    Finally decided to try one more time, before buying a MiniVac or pump-deal to make the fluid flow enuff, to push out whatever air was still left.

    So, I went to bleed the brakes again last nite. I had backed the Sup up on the driveway and the back tires were in the garage (about 1" higher than the driveway). Basically the car was tilted... @$$-up, nose down.

    I bled the shiat out of it again (w/Satan's help) and I even heard the "ga-glunk" of a big@$$ air bubble come thru.

    I've done all kinds of reading and research and was also at my wit's end. I know it sounds stupid and everything I saw said to bleed while the car is level, but this worked for me. It made it so that the fittings/calipers were tilted up a bit. Please try this and see if it helps. This was the 1st time I've ever had an issue bleeding brakes (unless there was another real problem).

    It is not 100% for me (maybe like 90%), but it is MUCH better than before. I have a set of caliper rebuild kits on the way, which I will likely install anyways... then I'll go for the 100% stopping power.

  7. #6
    Rock'n Death with Spikes! Supranaut's Avatar
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    I've pressure bled, mighty vac'd and all...I'd never thought about raising the nose or tail. Let gravity help dislodge the bubble....

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    Supranian chriso's Avatar
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    Aren't there a couple of allen head plugs on the top of the ABS controller that maybe could be loosened to bleed out the air OR are these factory adjustments or calibration/metering screws of some sort?

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    I looked at the TRSM and there is no method for bleeding at the ABS actuator...it says to fill the reservoir and bleed the brake system.

    I wouldn't F with the actuator. I only tried the tilted thing because I've been told to loosen the calipers and "raise" them slightly, so that the bleeder valve is more upward and any air would gravitate to it.

    So, as far as letting gravity do anything, it wasn't helping me. Anyone else that's solved their sponginess has created enuff of a flow of the fluid (while bleeding) to force the air out. Using the standard 1 or 2 person method just doesn't create enuff of a flow, I guess.

    Either way, I have NEVER had this hard of a time bleeding any brake system. Even my 87T w/ABS was never a problem.

    I say tilt the car and bleed, to see if there's any improvement. All that other bleeding has gotten out any of the air that it was supposed to. I just hope that this is the trick for that last Fing bubble.... Good luck!

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    SupraForums Member NeedasupraMKIV's Avatar
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    Satan,

    Thanks for the tip. I am definately going to try that this weekend. being as how my driveway is like a 45 degree angle. Hopefully that will help. I was looking at the actual pads and rotors tonight, and decided to replace everything and While im at it, even though I dont think it needs it, I am going to replace the brake lines. After all this is done, there shouldnt be any leak down in the system unless it is in the rotors or one of the hardlines. if that doesnt work, consider my car about 15 pounds lighter because having brakes is more important to me than having brakes with ABS. Although the ABS would be nice to have, if it doesnt work im not going to mess with it. I am open to other ideas also.

    Thanks

    Nick

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    can't ya just replace the abs thing? my breaks are a lil squishy but I have an 87 parts car that's got abs. is this an option?

  12. #11
    CR,7M Indio~
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    u can use a long vacuum hose connect one side to aux cylinder purge valve and the other to rear caliper purge valve tight the hose and open the purge valve and the rear brake caliper purge valve , tell a friend to help u..push the clutch pedal then the clutch fluid (dot3) will bleed reversely just keep ur eyes on the clutch fluid bottle dont let them go empty...when u do this the brake fluid bottle will overfluid the (dot3) just dont let them touch ur engine bay paint, if u let the brake too long time they will start to eat ur paint..hope this can help u ...

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    Supranian chriso's Avatar
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    Nick,
    Did you ever solve your brake bleeding problem??? I have the exact same problem since I installed ABS stuff on a non-ABS car. The fronts seem alright, but the rears keep burping air out. I've tried bleeding them numerous times but there is still air in the system.
    Chris

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    SupraForums Member NeedasupraMKIV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chriso
    Nick,
    Did you ever solve your brake bleeding problem??? I have the exact same problem since I installed ABS stuff on a non-ABS car. The fronts seem alright, but the rears keep burping air out. I've tried bleeding them numerous times but there is still air in the system.
    Chris
    Chris,

    Actually I did get mine fixed. I have all new calipers, pads, rotors, goodridge lines, and master cylinder on the car now. In my case the culprit was both the brake hoses and the calipers. My hoses were actually loosing some of the rubber around them and not holding pressure and my calipers in the front were seized in place. They were holding pressure like you wouldnt believe but they werent working at all. To bleed the car since I didnt have anyone around I bought one of the one man bleeding kits from the parts store for 10 bucks. Are you using your original calipers and hoses with the new ABS stuff? If you are how old are your calipers and hoses? I think there might be a difference between the brake masters on ABS vs non ABS cars also so you might want to check that out. The only way to bleed the brakes is the normal way which you are already doing, there is no way to bleed out the ABS on our cars like there is on the mk4. Also make sure that you bleed the master, as that was one of my mistakes, you dont actually have to bench bleed it just mount it up and use the plastic fittings and tubing (that you can buy at a parts store also) and connect them up to the brake lines with the tubes running back into the master and have someone press the brake for you until there is no more air in the master. The rear resoivor(sp?) is the killer on the masters because it wont open until you bleed it like I described.

    -Nick
    Last edited by NeedasupraMKIV; 05-05-2006 at 10:07 AM.

  15. #14
    Supra Fender Covers PM me TonyG's Avatar
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    Bleeding ABS is tricky, I was told that you bleed the brakes, then go get on the ABS and activate it several times, then bleed again, and you should be good to go. Sometimes the air gets trapped in the ABS system

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    SupraForums Member supra8795's Avatar
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    Interesting thread. I will be bleeding my brakes hopefully tomorrow when my lines get here, if they get here. I tell you what its been a nightmare doing this brake job cause every steel line was rotted out and would leak so i have brand new steel lines from toyota and techna fit steelbraided lines with porterfield brake pads. Hopefully the bleeding part will be easy compared to the rest of the shit.

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    SupraForums Member PbXAssassinX1524's Avatar
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    When I changed only the rubber lines out I had no problems with bleeding the ABS system. This problem did run through my mind though and this just confirms that it can happen.

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    AS far i know about bleeding brake lines is.... try to bleed the longest line from the brake booster. For exemple firth rear brake on rigth, 2nd to rear left, front rigth and front left. Hope works out for you.

  19. #18
    Supranian chriso's Avatar
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    What I ended up doing was to bleed out everything starting at the master cylinder then the distribution valve, then the abs controller, then the rear right wheel, rear left wheel, front right and front left and start all over again. I haven't had any problems since. Oh and don't have your 12 year old son help you since all he wants to do is get back to his video games.

  20. #19
    SupraForums Member NeedasupraMKIV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chriso
    What I ended up doing was to bleed out everything starting at the master cylinder then the distribution valve, then the abs controller, then the rear right wheel, rear left wheel, front right and front left and start all over again. I haven't had any problems since. Oh and don't have your 12 year old son help you since all he wants to do is get back to his video games.
    Thats funny, I dont have any kids yet but I know that somtimes I cant wait to get back to my video games.....hahaha. How did you bleed the ABS unit? I was told by our friends at Elmhurst Toyota (which is like a 10 min drive for me) that there is no bleeder on the ABS unit on the MKIII. My brakes are nice and firm now and thats the way I like them but Im still interested to see how you did it on the ABS unit.

    -Nick

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    SupraForums Member adxx's Avatar
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    Sorry, for bumping that topic up, but someone can find it usefull.

    Ok, I solved my issue with soft pedal, which I had to pump several times to make it feel hard.

    My car is Toyota Soarer MZ21, which shares chassis with MA70, but different body shape. My ABS unit is not working due to wiring issues, and replaced non-ABS front hub. I still did not consider whether I want to keep it, or remove.

    Anyway, recently I replace MC, bleed brake system with my friend. Pedal remaind soft and required pumping. From looking at Toyota Supra repair manual (brakes section), I realized, that ABS internal reservoir (accumulator) should be the issue. Ok, lets make it work.

    I could not activate it in normal way because of the system fault. But I still have a wire and +12v from accumulator

    I did simple wiring to hook up all three internal solenoids and a pump. Next I asked my friend to pump the brake pedal several times and hold it to keep pressure in lines behind ABS unit. When he did so, I activated ABS unit. OMG! It sounded like totally DRY system for a first half a second. And for another second it sounded like filled with the fluid. Yes! That what I wanted!

    After that - normal brake fluid bleed.

    Will check tomorrow on how does it work after overnight parking, but for now it works and feels great!!!
    MZ21=>UZZ21, or
    7M-GTE (blown) => 1UZ-FE


  22. #21
    Custom User Title spdu4ea's Avatar
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    Glad its working for you.

    As a tip, you want to bleed the longest lines first. For a US-spec MK3 with ABS, that means:

    #1 Left Rear
    #2 right Rear
    #3 left front
    #4 right front


    for a US spec MK3 without ABS its:

    #1 right rear
    #2 left rear
    #3 right front
    #4 left front

  23. #22
    SupraForums Member adxx's Avatar
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    Well, test drive shows that everything works exactly as it should be working! will make some write up for those who has fault ABS system and can not engae it in normal way.

    For those who has ABS working, you should be bleeding brakes as follows:
    1) bleed brakes as usually.
    2) go for a drive and make ABS to engage several times.
    3) bleed again.

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    Is it possible to just take out the abs unit and run new lines from the master to the wheels? I mean it should work but i thought there needs to be a metering valve in there somewhere to get the right pressure in the front and rear brakes. You know 70% front 30% rear kinda thing?

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    O ya and just bleed the brakes with the car running. It should activate the abs pump so the fluid runs to the back.

  26. #25
    SupraForums Member adxx's Avatar
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    1) yes, it is possible to replace with non-ABS lines, remove ABS and it'll work great. Just lack of soarer's in junkyards does not allow to do this.
    2) Yes, there is balancing valve in the system, nearby the MC (see on the picture)
    3) and no, if your ABS fault (problems with sensors, etc) - no difference whether the car is running or not.
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