Actually, best info on 5.7x28mm is www.fivesevenforum.com.Originally Posted by outofstep
There has been more ballistic testing by leo for your viewing pleasures.
Some of our members have harvested deer, ground hogs, coyotes, etc.
Another member, who is leo, has even used on a bg.
This round does more damage than a .22 mag.
Because HK never made an "HK91K". They did, however, make a "G3K". Hard to clone a weapon that never existed.I don't understand why you call the first on a G3k cloneInstead of something more like a HK91k?
Similar terminology is used when calling an AR15A3 Carbine an "M4gery" or "MFaux". Only a genuine select-fire Colt M16 Carbine with specific feedramps, specific barrel profile, etc. was designated by the US military as an "M4". However, the term "M4" is generally used to describe any brand of semi-auto AR15 carbine having the same overall characteristics of a genuine M4, even without select-fire capability.
Politically correct? No. Easiest way to quickly describe your weapon? Yes.
Quick question for you guys. How do you feel about an AR-15 as a first firearm? I've already studied the California laws, and you really can have an AR, if you build it right. All I need to know is, is there anything about an AR-15 that would make it a terrible first firearm for someone who isn't new to guns, but just hasn't bought one for himself yet...
Who cares about the semantics. It's a kick ass gun either way.
Your in Commiefornia, good luck! I would get a cool bolt gun if I lived there. There are just to many laws in that state that would prevent me from building something I liked.
Sorry for lots of pics.
Weatherby Vanguard in .243 winchester with a Nikon scope using 100 gr. Federal Soft points loaded with Sierra GameKing BTSP bullets.
I need to go back up to my Dad's place in NV so I can shoot this thing
^^^ damn is it the NFA version or semi?
I've thought about that too, but I just keep coming back to the AR. There are a couple options for putting together a Cali-legal AR, I'm just looking for some input from someone who has owned one (or 12) and knows if there is something aside from the legal aspect of it that would make it a bad choice for a first purchase.
Probably Semi, I forgot to ask my Dad... But the owner has plenty of Automatics
Ohio Rapid Fire has a good rep in the FAL community. Evidently less so for HK, but I wouldn't hesitate to own one of their FALs, especially at the right price. They just got set up to CNC their own FAL receivers, and if they beat DSA's prices, they will be selling a lot of them.
And this is precisely why I want more real world shooting data with the round. Nobody can come to even a mild agreement. Actually, the FBI folks who test ammunition said the 5.7x28 is just like a .22mag as well...
There are enough SWAT teams using the P90s (and USSS as well) that there have to be some shootings on record... there simply doesn't seem to be anyone compiling data.
Evan Marshall's site (stoppingpower.net) claims 5.7 to be very superior to 9mm in shoulder weapons.
I just think it's a neat platform. If someone breaks in I have plenty of proven options... 10mm MP5, AR15, 12gauge.
I think what im getting at is the fact that most people that call the 5.7x28mm a .22mag has never even had any expierence with the caliber at all.
My fiveseven weighs 1.5 lbs with 20rounds loaded, has less recoil than my 9mm and follow up shots are so easy a caveman can do it. Cant ask for anything better.
MKIV_Aspirant, if your ever in tx let me know, ill let you try out the fiveseven.
I think that most people are too concerned with "my caliber is bigger than yours". Most people dont realize that shot placement is the single most important thing. I can put more shots, quicker, and more accuratley using my fiveseven than my USP 45acp. The 5.7x28mm has been around for sometime as is just now coming to the civilian world as mainstream.
Last edited by kamokazi; 01-02-2007 at 11:25 AM.
Right there in that very forum, a sticky no less, proves what I said: http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=472
5.7 rarely penetrates more than 10 inches, not meeting the FBI standards for terminal ballistics. All those numerous jello shots are almost mirrors of 22mag jello shots. The FBI says 5.7 is basicly 22mag and Dr. Roberts says it's basicly like 22mag. Terminaly speaking it looks almost exactly like 22mag, and that is show in ballistic gel picture after ballistic gel picture in the sticky on that forum.
It's a "rifle" round that has none of the advantages of being a rifle round. It doesn't tumble, it doesnt fragment, and it doesn't penetrate deeply. It barely penetrates, slightly yaws, and flips backward. Once again, this can be seen right here: http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=472
Sure there are a handful of IRL highly trained units that when greatly outnumbering a badguy and holding the tactical advantage, so 5.7 drop the evil doer. But that's hardly a testament of it's stopping power. In the case of a P90, well duh, full auto anything will drop a badguy. That's not saying much. Not to mention all the the accounts of special teams taking down badguys happend with ammo that civilians can't even buy. So there are two things working against you already, non-FA and neutered ammo.
YEs, shot placement is the most important factor in dropping a badguy. But your shot placement isn't going to do much if the round itself simply can't penetrate deep enough or cause enough tissue damage to stop them. I can empty a mag from a Walter P22 in the time it takes me to shoot 3-4 rounds from my Glock G19C. But I would much rather have 4 CNS shots of 9mm than 10 CNS shots of 22lr. The one just simply doesn't cause enough tissue damage.
True, you carry what you can put on target fastest. But there should be limits to what you are willing to sacrifice. When the FBI and Dr. Roberts (fackler thinks a bb going at 5k fps would be the ultimate gun. so i take his stuff with a grain of salt...) both pretty much instantly dismiss 5.7 as being viable for personal defense, it doesn't make me think too highly of the round. Not to mention the ballistic gel pictures on a forum for 5.7 enthusiats shows the round pretty much equals 22mag.
I'm not trying to make this some "mine is bigger than yours" piss match either. My personal favorite round is the 10mm. That mutherfucker is like a handheld mountain range vaporizer. I have 4 handguns chambered in that caliber and want to do an AR build with it and pic up one of the MP5/10 clones. Hell, just look at my avatar. Having said that though, my carry conceal gun is a G19C. A tiny ol' 9mm. Because 9mm can meet the FBI minimums for penetration and expansion, and I can get more rounds on target faster than 10mm.
Touched by his noodley appendage
Zero'ed in the .17HMR today at 100 yards, second time shooting the gun.
The culprit;
So i have these guys that doubt very much the Armor Piercing capability of the P-90 and the MP-7. Especially at range.
Statistics and official statements from the manufaturers webistes aren't doing the job, they want to see Video (and i would enjoy it too, though i have NO doubts anyways)
Anyone have any ideas? I searched my little heart out but i couldn't find anything
The 5.7 was never intended to be a rifle round. It is a pistol round from start to finish, has all the limitations thereof, and the P/S90 is a subgun, not a rifle by any stretch.
I still prefer other rounds, but 5.7 vs. 9mm/.40/.45/etc is the proper comparison...
Just out of curiosity, how often do you guys clean your guns? Every time out or after a X amount of rounds......?
Yes, 5.7 has no problem penetrating soft armour. But then again niether does 7.62x25 or 10mm. 5.7 will go through IIIa, 7.62x25 will go through II in most comercial loads and the sabots will punch through IIIa. 10mm is pretty much the same boat as 7.62x25. The BOZZ round (10mm necked down to .223) can penetrate plates (full on lvl III) I beleive.So i have these guys that doubt very much the Armor Piercing capability of the P-90 and the MP-7. Especially at range.
Statistics and official statements from the manufaturers webistes aren't doing the job, they want to see Video (and i would enjoy it too, though i have NO doubts anyways)
Anyone have any ideas? I searched my little heart out but i couldn't find anything
I wasn't trying to compair the 5.7 to a rifle round, aside from saying the bullet that it used. Didn't mean for it to come off that way. I was mainly trying to get across that it doesn't provide sufficient penetration or tissue destruction for any defensive firearm. Heck, .380 penetrates deeper and destroys more tissue than 5.7 does. But along those lines, I wouldnt dream of using .380 on a soft armoured target.
5.7 is a niche role caliber, but people try and bring it out of it's niche to fill other roles that it simply can't. In it's intended role, it works great. If you need a pistol that can gauranted penetrate hostiles wearing IIIa armour, the 5.7 is frickin great. But then that kinda begs the question, if you are going after armoured targets why the fuck don't you have a rifle?
Making a double barreled rifle
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=Chapuis+Armes
Very well said...
After every time I shoot them. Some people let them sit a long time between cleanings. I think that is pretty shitty. Some M4 barreled AR15s will go 5000 rounds without cleaning before something breaks or jams. However, one that is cleaned and lubed often will last a LOT longer.
My old-ass Taurus PT92AF 9mm had over 8K rounds through the original barrel before I sold it to my brother. He still shoots it and it is accurate as hell. Cleaning and proper lubing is important.
I was thinking about picking up a .17 just for target shooting / maybe to kill a jack rabbit or two. Almost just cause I'm curious and I've seen new ones pretty cheap.
What do you think vs like a 10/22 mag?
I have a 10/22 now that I'm probably going to give to my little brother.
Also my father just got a Remington 710 (it was a gift) in .270 and I realy like the gun for what it is. I might look into getting a used 700 in that cal.
Thanks. I put almost 150 rounds through my Beretta and I planned on cleaning it today. I dont want to clean it after every use because I live on a few acres and Ive pretty much been shooting every other day. With this type of use, does cleaning once a week sound fair?
"Do what you want to, do what you will
Just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill.
And when you pay the bill kindly leave a little tip
And help the next poor sucker on this one way trip."
-Frank Zappa
Dan,
whats a good ammo i can order for my ar15 that is fair in price, and wont stick to a magnet at gun world?
also, me and kennedy have plans to go to gun world next monday evening to shoot if you are intersted.
thanks dude
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