The how to properly degree 2JZ-HKS cams thread!!!!

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Thread: The how to properly degree 2JZ-HKS cams thread!!!!

  1. #1
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    The how to properly degree 2JZ-HKS cams thread!!!!

    I am creating this thread to try and gain an understanding of whats involved when properly "degreeing" HKS camshafts to our beloved 2JZ-GTE engine. I want to attempt to do this on my engine but I need to have 100% confidence in what I am doing because I have a interference engine I do not want to bend any valves like the last time (long story).

    Anyways I have spent the entire evening tonight reading, scanning, and gathering as much information as I can before I attempt this with my motor. I always enjoy learning new things and I think all of us with HKS cams set straight up are losing out on some HP and drive ability.

    Here is a copy of the HKS cam cards that I got when I ordered my cams from MVP a week or two ago.

    HKS INTAKE CAM CARD:



    HKS EXHAUST CAM CARD:




    Here is what I gathered from reading this thread and looking at the cam cards.


    PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.


    Intake valve #1 should be open by 1mm (.039inches)

    ATDC (After Top Dead Center)

    256: 6deg
    264: 2deg
    272: -2deg - this seems like its BTDC?
    280: -7deg - this seems like its BTDC?

    Exhaust valve #1 should be open by 1mm (.039inches)

    BBDC (Before Bottom Dead Center)

    256: 41deg
    264: 46deg
    272: 50deg
    280: 55deg

    Since our motors turn clock wise this is what the degree wheel should look like.



    If you have any real world experience or know for a fact that what I am posting is correct and true please post up. I do not want anyone to attempt to degree there cams unless they have 100% confidence in there ability to do so.

    Thanks,
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob Tompkins; 01-25-2008 at 09:58 PM.
    1998 Black 6 speed - BL 4" kit with a Billet 6765, BC 272 cams, TPS ported and polished head, setup for E-85, RPS triple carbon, AEM V2, 1600cc inj in my own custom fuel system, Greddy3 row, ect , ect, Alpha tuned. Numbers coming soon!!!

    1994 Single Turbo Supra - BL / SP Hybrid 71-GTS / 760+rwhp with all the goodies. Singled, Stalled, Sprayed, AEM. 9 Second capable and one awesome street car.****SOLD 6/5/2008**** but not forgotten.

  2. #2
    i always say toyota !
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    i read the HKS website. the HKS cam gears are not required in certain applications. but valve springs are. from those pictures, they are giving spec.
    lets go !

  3. #3
    SupraForums Member Dljohns6's Avatar
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    This vid may help they go into cams at around 3:50
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MsqA-C3vGI

  4. #4
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    Ok I went out to the garage and must have rotated the crank about 10x trying to understand what the cam card was stating and I have got it figured out now. I ordered comp cams #4796 universal cam degree kit and I am going to degree the cams in hopefully tuesday night if summit ship it like they normally do. I will post up some pictures of my procces so others can understand hopefully.

    Bob

  5. #5
    SupraForums Member RRocket's Avatar
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    Bob,

    I know this may be asking much of you, but is there any possible way to dyno the car BEFORE degreeing the cams (just putting them in like most people do), then doing another dyno run AFTER degreeing them? I have heard from both sides of the argument..it makes no extra power, or it does. This would be a fine way to see if the extra effort of degreeing yields any tangible benefits. I don't think anyone here has done a before/after test with regards to degreeing. I'd be willing to chip in a few bucks to offset the dyno cost. Maybe if enough people chip in to defray cost it might be easier to justify for you?
    Last edited by RRocket; 01-26-2008 at 01:21 AM.

  6. #6
    Supra Owner Since 1996 Hands On's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dljohns6 View Post
    This vid may help they go into cams at around 3:50
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MsqA-C3vGI
    Bob, I was going to post this same video for you. It's what finally made me understand what it was all about. Now if I could just tell the twins appart.
    KO Racing T04R | KO Racing 1000cc fuel system | AEM | RPS C/C | KO Racing intercooler | KO Racing 4" exhaust

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRocket View Post
    Bob,

    I know this may be asking much of you, but is there any possible way to dyno the car BEFORE degreeing the cams (just putting them in like most people do), then doing another dyno run AFTER degreeing them? I have heard from both sides of the argument..it makes no extra power, or it does. This would be a fine way to see if the extra effort of degreeing yields any tangible benefits. I don't think anyone here has done a before/after test with regards to degreeing. I'd be willing to chip in a few bucks to offset the dyno cost. Maybe if enough people chip in to defray cost it might be easier to justify for you?
    You know that is ONE HELL OF AN IDEA!!!

    I figure once I know how far to advance or retard either cam from using the degree wheel it will be easy for me to go to the dyno here with the cams straight up and then make a pull. After that I will set them to the proper marks then make another pull. I have no issue in doing that and I would like to know also. My main concern with the degreeing cams is hopefully gain some drive ability. My junker should make some good power regardless.

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob Tompkins; 01-26-2008 at 12:35 PM.

  8. #8
    SupraForums Member 93 twintrbo's Avatar
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    Great thread Bob.

  9. #9
    Carma Performance
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    Having done this before on a 2J I can tell you that the hardest thing about doing this is getting the dial indicator set on the bucket where the cam wont interfere with it. Past that its straight forward.

    Erin

  10. #10
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    Ok I just created some word documents using the degree wheel to show just when the valve timing events should be happening with my HKS 280 cams. I am going to use these as a guide to degree the cams when the degree kit shows up on Tuesday. It seems logical to me that the cams should not have to be moved all that much because I know that there is only 10 degrees of cam shaft adjustment either way, and from eyeballing the #1 intake valve it does not appear I am going to need to move the cams to awful far.

    1. Install timing belt on motor with cams and crank both on #1 TDC, pull the tensioner pin.

    2. Install pointer to a bolt on the block and then install the degree wheel on the crankshaft.

    3. Find true TDC by turning the crank back and forth to get in the middle of the dwell factor at TDC.

    4. Install the dial indicator on the #1 intake valve shim, set the indicator to zero with valve all the way closed.

    5. Rotate the crank around to -7deg ATDC and then loosen the lock nuts on the intake cam gear and rotate the cam so the lift gauge is showing .039 inches of lift or 1mm. Lock the cam gear down.

    6. Rotate the crank 360 degrees while watching the dial indicator the valve lift should correspond to exactly.

    7. Move the dial indicator to #1 exhaust valve shim and zero it out with the valve all the way closed.

    8. Rotate the crank shaft again to get it to 55deg BBDC.

    9. Unlock exhaust cam gear and move cam until the dial indicator is showing .039 or 1mm of lift on the #1 exhaust valve.

    10. Rotate the crank 360 degrees while watching the dial indicator and the valve lift should correspond to exactly to the sheet I posted below.

    Here is what the valve events should be using HKS 280 cams in a 2JZGTE engine.

    INTAKE:



    EXHAUST:


  11. #11
    SupraForums Member RRocket's Avatar
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    Great news...I suspect the degreeing won't yield too much HP, but as you stated driveability....or beyond that shift the curve somewhat. Hopefully a dyno curve will show this. Please let me know if you want me to kick in some $$ for dyno....

  12. #12
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    Good luck...I'm sure someone has done this before but I've yet to see a thread about it.

  13. #13
    T88 YOU supradupaflyguy's Avatar
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    honestly, youre not going to pick up a tremendous amount of power doing this, as a matter of fact its possible you may loose power in some areas. the idea behind degreeing the cam is to get the cam operating in the manner the manufacturer designed it to operate at. for most people this is not worth the time spent, for the perfectionists it is.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupraDupaFlyBoy View Post
    honestly, youre not going to pick up a tremendous amount of power doing this, as a matter of fact its possible you may loose power in some areas. the idea behind degreeing the cam is to get the cam operating in the manner the manufacturer designed it to operate at. for most people this is not worth the time spent, for the perfectionists it is.
    I am not looking for more power, I am looking for better drive ability to be honest!!

    Bob

  15. #15
    SupraForums Member T6Rocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupraDupaFlyBoy View Post
    honestly, youre not going to pick up a tremendous amount of power doing this, as a matter of fact its possible you may loose power in some areas. the idea behind degreeing the cam is to get the cam operating in the manner the manufacturer designed it to operate at. for most people this is not worth the time spent, for the perfectionists it is.
    How is spending $200 to gain 5-7 HP (assuming) not worth it? Plus you get a smoother running engine and actually learn something! I dont see how he could lose HP in an area that actually "matters", HKS designs their camshafts to work best straight up.

    Dont listen to the naysayers Bob!

    Al
    94TT Auto, 6466
    Previous setup: HKS Twin 2835's
    9.57@142.42 32 psi, 10/29/06

    Previous car: 90 Talon AWD, 5 spd, FP Red (60-1)
    10.56@132.36 built motor, 28 psi, Sept 2000

  16. #16
    SupraForums Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Bob,

    It looks like you are doing it right, to whoever found the video, nice find.

    I posted some info in this thread, and Simplifed the cam card numbers into BTDC/ATDC.

    http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=471383

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post

    Intake:
    256: 3 degrees (ATDC)
    264: -1 degrees (BTDC)
    272: -5 degrees (BTDC)

    Exhaust:
    256: 7 degrees (ATDC)
    264: 2 degrees (ATDC)
    272: -2 degrees (BTDC)
    Last edited by Gadfly; 01-28-2008 at 06:55 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    Bob,

    It looks like you are doing it right, to whoever found the video, nice find.

    I posted some info in this thread, and Simplifed the cam card numbers into BTDC/ATDC.

    http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=471383

    Gad -

    Look again at the cam cards I posted, in my mind it should be like this---->

    Intake valve #1 should be open by 1mm (.039inches) at:

    256: 6deg ATDC
    264: 2deg ATDC
    272: 2deg BTDC
    280: 7deg BTDC

    Exhaust valve #1 should be open by 1mm (.039inches) at:

    256: 41deg BBDC
    264: 46deg BBDC
    272: 50deg BBDC
    280: 55deg BBDC

    Should I be degreeing my cams to when the valve shim reaches 1mm of lift or to when it reaches max lift? ONce I have it set they should sync up anyways. Let me know what you think and I will be attaching a dial indicator tonight as one of my techs let me borrow one today so all I will have to do is attach the degree wheel to my balancer and find true TDC. I am going to use the piston stop to find true TDC.

    Bob

  18. #18
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    I recently attempted to do this, but getting my dial indicator to work around the cam lobes was almost impossible. I did verify that both cams were close, its hard to get an exact reading of .039" of lift based on the angle of the dial indicator reading.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by navyguy0023 View Post
    I recently attempted to do this, but getting my dial indicator to work around the cam lobes was almost impossible. I did verify that both cams were close, its hard to get an exact reading of .039" of lift based on the angle of the dial indicator reading.
    OMG dude you are not kidding. I spent the last two hours trying get the dial indicator setup properly and there is no way in hell you can get it even close to the valve shim because the cam is in the way. I had to take an Allen wrench and cut it down and use it as a bridge between the dial indicator and the shim. The angle is close but I was able to tell that its giving me a .005 error, I found out the how much the angle is throwing off total lift because it should have a total lift of .366 inches and its only lifting to about .361 on the dial indicator. I reapeted this reading several times so I am only going to be degreeing the intake cam to about .034 instead of .039 and I am sure that I am going to have to do the same to exhaust side when I go to dial it in.

    I know I am probably being to anal about all of this but I am super curious on what affect properly degreeing the cams is going to have on the car versus just running them striaght up. I will be sure to post my experiences as they unfold so everyone can gain something from all this pain in the ass stuff.

    Here are some pics from tonight!






  20. #20
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    Nice job fabbing up something to get down in there!!! Does your mag base stick well to that cover, mine was flaky at best. I'm pretty sure someone could come up with a bolt on base and that could get a much better angle.

    I spent hours on the web looking up how other people have done this, and came to the conclusion that most just don't.

    Keep us updated on your results. I am curious how far things are off.

    Awesome job, pretty sure this is a supraforums first!! This is way I love the forums!!!

  21. #21
    SupraForums Member Renegades's Avatar
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    Very informative and clear. Thanks for the write up!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegades View Post
    Very informative and clear. Thanks for the write up!
    Thanks dude!!

    I have put a lot of effort into this, the brown clown has just brought my comp cams cam degreeing kit and I will hope to have the cams dialed in this evening and if its not to late it should be running tonight maybe. I am very paticular about things being "right" when it comes to my Supra so after doing some reading it seems most important to have the cams degreed especially if the block or head has been milled at all.

    Bob

  23. #23
    SupraForums Member RRocket's Avatar
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    I have some attachments for dial indicator that are .02"-.04" in diameter. Would that fit in there, Bob?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRocket View Post
    I have some attachments for dial indicator that are .02"-.04" in diameter. Would that fit in there, Bob?
    Probably so but the issue that you are dealing with is that if you are not 100% paralell (sp) to the valve shim the lift readings will be slightly off. It appears that the slightly miss angled dial indicator is throwing of the total valve lift by .005 to the low side so I will be setting the intake cam to .034inches at 7deg BTDC when I am degreeing it. I know I will be dead on if I see the intake valve hitting at max lift .361inches @ 113deg ATDC.

    I am still debating in my head whether its going to be easier to degree the cams off the max lift position or off the .034 of opening position. I am sure this is going to take me more then a few minutes to get it right.

    Bob

  25. #25
    Toyota Powertrain Guru JZ1's Avatar
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    You know I went through all this when I did my 264s only to find with a new belt, and aem cam gears they wound up dead on spec per the timing card. I've done this to all the V8 engines I've done so I did it to this engine too. I measured the stock cams before removing them and the only thing I learned was the HKS cam intake opening was late by less than 1/2 degree per the cam card.

    I will say it is critical to have the dial indicator a perfect 90deg if you set them up by the opening and closing timing. If you go by lobe centerline, it won't matter because the max lift value is all you care about.

    Honestly this is a waste of time if you think about it. One day while looking at a TRD race engine I asked my buddy why don't they use marked timing gears etc. He simply said the degrees don't matter, we adjust them for best power so who cares what the numbers are? If they find a consistant trend on an engine off of where straight up timing is, they just have the cam reground on that center.

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