Water/Meth 50/50 is so sick!

[Trublsom]

Before i forget, great thread and i am glad you took the time to explain all of this in such detail. I have a lot of friends talking about converting over but until i read this i had no clue what they were getting and why.

Obiwan sent you a direct email about getting a system

There is a lot to respond to here. I'll have to get back to you on this later this evening. I have to put my dog down today so Im in a low mood.

Good questions, I have answers to all of them just give me a bit.

Sorry to hear about the dog, i just had to put my ferret down while i was at home on leave. Had him for 7 years, with a month till i was back state side for good. So take your time and how you feel better

[Obiwan]

Those are great prices on Meth BTW. At the $175.00 or so I pay for a drum Im still paying more then that. Around $3.18

Im sure it can be found cheaper but probably no the same brand or quality of Meth I buy. I searched our whole state and couldn't find it cheaper.

[Obiwan]

Happy to help explain things. Glad people are on board and realizing how great water/meth is for our race gas drinking rockets.

[RogerM]

What's the recommended boost limit with this setup on 93 octane? Or is the better question what is the horsepower limit with this kit in combination with 93 octane?

Thanks

PS: After re-reading I may have answered my own question. If I'm at my safe limit of 600 on 93 now then I should expect a safe max of 660-690?

[Obiwan]

I can't possibly answer your question. I have no idea what boost level, what size turbo, what your motor is, etc. So I have no way of determining that.

[RogerM]

74mm turbo, 18 psi, 1mm over ported head, 264 cams, rods+pistons stock displacement, stock TB, Titan intake mani (stock chopped), AEM. I think that should cover power mods.

Thanks

[ghd8989]

Aw man Ben. You are doing the right thing. That poor dog is hurting bad. =(

[Obiwan]

Thanks Grant. No one else seemed to notice that part... but love to discuss their own stuff.


"74mm turbo, 18 psi, 1mm over ported head, 264 cams, rods+pistons stock displacement, stock TB, Titan intake mani (stock chopped), AEM. I think that should cover power mods.

Thanks"

You should be able to make a comfortable 800RWHP on pump gas 91-93 at 30 PSI or so with that setup. There is no limiting factor to the Water/Meth and your power level on pump. More power, higher boost = larger nozzles, more progressive spray. It's very simple.

[Obiwan]

Yes methanol is a chemical, and if its pure its pure no matter where it comes from. However its often not pure, it has additives in one way or another and when you buy it in tins from a hardware store or you buy Heet from an auto parts store it often has dyes, additives, etc. that are not intended for automotive performance and are not ideal for it. I believe VP M1 has additives as well, ones which are intended for automotive performance and for running through pumps, lines, and engines. I'm not saying they don't all work, but I'm just saying if the price is comparable its more ideal to run what was intended for auto use, whether its VP, Sunoco, or another brand.


Thanks for addressing that, definitely interesting and not something I've thought about before.
A couple things I'm thinking now are 1) how does meth nozzle to IAT sensor placement affect readings/results? I am running 2 nozzles of different sizes on my Subaru so that the droplets injected vary in size and the atomization is staggered between my IC pipe, manifold, and cylinders so I'm not sure how much of a temp drop would result when measured at the IC pipe (unless you tapped the intake manifold for the IAT sensor).

I'm not sure how you have your tune set up, but is the IAT compensation adjusted so that you could go on driving with an inoperable meth injection system and the car would continue to run safely? I'm sure you'd notice the difference in power if this happened, but is there any visual notification or anything else to let you know when there is a problem?

I agree that most failsafes would have a tough time, but the Aquamist DDS3 is badass and would not have an issue at all with any of the potential problems you mentioned above, and can automatically revert to a secondary safe map instantly, or revert to wastegate boost pressure, or trip whatever change you wish. Mapping your IAT for timing/boost compensation is definitely elegant and streamlined, but I wouldn't say its any safer than a 'proper' failsafe system in place, which not all are.
And then of course there's the other element where I am not running a standalone on the Supra so I can't adjust my IAT compensation like you can.

Well thanks for taking the time to open the discussion up here. I'd love to see this become more commonly used on the Supras that aren't towed everywhere and only use race gas. I know this is a much better option for me for sure and am looking forward to getting my kit installed.[/QUOTE]


Ok A lot to try and respond to here.

Avoiding Methanol that has any other chemical added to it is key for sure. As far as I know Heet, in the yellow bottle is pure methanol. So that's fine to run but is not cheap if spiking washer fluid etc. in a pinch. Most dyes are just food coloring and will not hurt anything. Most VP race gas has dyes in it as well for that matter. Other chemicals are another story so try and avoid them.

IAT placement should be in the intake itself, not the intercooler piping ( I have seen that done before) and middle of the intake is probably your best bet for accuracy. You can do it in the intercooler piping but your readings will not be the same.

Your really splitting hairs when you start talking about the size of water droplets. A proper setup should atomize really well regardless what size jet your running. Your pressure at 220 psi for instance in a 375 jet vs. a 625 jet is still very similair as it is way too much pressure in general for either size. It changes the volume of course but progressively anyhow as voltage is ramped up at the pump.

If you really want to get technical about it then mount your first nozzle 5 inches before the throttle body and then the second 5 inches past that (away from the throttle body) on the opposite side of the intercooler pipe. This is actually the best spray pattern for atomization with multiple jets but it DOES vary on the ID of your intercooler piping. Having the nozzles too close together will mean the spray patterns will merge and that's when you will end up with larger water droplets. Also large water droplets and N2O do not get along, amazing how inefficient ice is in your combustion chamber, lol.

IAT compensation is mapped so that under normal driving conditions (no or very low boost) all is fine. The real heat is created under boost and depending on the EMS you can map by IAT Vs. any factor you choose. I understand some systems are more limited then others.

The best of the in line flow sensors for meth still can't see if the line between the unit and the nozzle is partially cut. However the chances of that happening are pretty damn slim to begin with. Any fail safe is good to have, but again relying solely on them is dangerous.

Air Fuels will also change by 1-2 points ASAP if the flow is impeded or stopped as well, but do you really have time to monitor all of that? Depends on how easy your gauges are to monitor and wether or not your looking at them or the tach, or the car next to you, etc. Course we have this issue even on race gas too as there again is no real fail safe for anything, meth or race gas, and we simply do what we can.

A lot of the Supra's we have set the system on do not have stand alone EMS systems, so they simply monitor tank level, tank consumption, and the on dash lights. It's all pretty straight forward.


Hope that helps. Been a long day and I don't want to think cars right now.

[RogerM]

Thanks Grant. No one else seemed to notice that part... but love to discuss their own stuff.

You have my sincerest condolences and apologies. I was/am posting from a mobile phone and was skimming.

[TROLL]

Thanks again for the thorough response... very good info here.
And please do take a break from cars/SF, there's certainly more to life as you are very well aware. Sorry to hear about your dog.

[Obiwan]

Thanks guys, it was a real drag to lose my dog. I have had her for 15 years. That's a long time.

As for the on going Meth discussion:

Some recent changes have taken shape.

A. Snow performance (whose components we use to put our supra kits together) have made some changes. The standard pump is now a 220 PSI pump, no longer a 150 psi pump.

B. The low level switches are now standard. Meaning no additional cost.

C. The safe inject flow units are now VERY affordable and revamped. A cool upgrade if you want the added piece of mind.

D. The kit prices across the board have come down. So I can now offer you our custom kits set up specifically for Supra's for even less then before.

E. The stage III systems can now be run sequentially. Meaning you can have a single jet running at low boost and when the boost hits MID boost levels the second Jet is activated, then both are ramped progressively up. The pressure is dropped just slightly when the second jet is triggered to make the transition of the 2nd jet smooth and linear. It's a very cool setup.

F. Some pics to come shortly of some higher power (1000+RWHP) configurations and tricks to running multi-tank systems. I should have everything completed this weekend.

Please remember, the standard snow performance kits will NOT work with our cars. You need special length tubing, several additional components, relays, misc parts, etc. We set the kit's up for Supra's (among other cars) specifically and have tailored them in so that everything you need is included in the kit. And with our discount level we get the kit's cheap enough where we can add all of the added components in and generally still save you money over a standard kit!! So we are doing everything we can to hook the community up.

We have 4 more cars getting Methanol injection in the shop this weekend. I can't say enough about how cool these systems are and how great it is to no longer be a prisoner to race gas.


As for people running full stand alones and want more dynamic control of flow...

IF your stand alone has the basic feature to output a voltage map (0-5V) or even in hertz you can simply utilize this map to fine tune your meth injection. DO NOT use a boost reference line, instead switch the controller over to MAF and input a direct voltage line from your EMS system. Decide what your start spray point is (we can help with that) and what your max boost level is and then utilize the mapping accordingly. Here is an example.

Ok so we are going to start spraying at 14 PSI and our max boost is say 35 PSI. Then we set the controller to activate at 1 VOLT (there are two dials on the side of the controller that can be set for maf voltage ON/OFF points or boost reference ON/OFF values) In this example we are going to set the ON point to 1 VOLT or 1000 millivolts, and the MAX voltage to 5 VOLTS or 5000 mlvts.

Now in the EMS we will set the voltage output map up to have an X and Y axis based on Boost and RPM. We will set the value at 14 PSI and any rpm (cuz your not gonna get to 14 psi at a low rpm anyways) to 1 VOLT. This will begin the injection once you hit 14 PSI. Then make 30-35 PSI on your map 5 VOLTS. That will make the value FULL spray, meaning the pump is at it's full operating pressure when it sees 5 volts. Still with me?? hope so.

Now then simply interpolate the values between 14 PSI and 35 PSI in your software. Most stand alones have this feature. If not, well then that sucks and you'll have to do it by hand. This should fill in your map and ramp the methanol injection evenly and smoothly. Now this is simply a STARTING POINT to get the system running. I would then tailor the map to the power curve of the car and fine tune it.

You now have FULL control of the spray by specific voltage mapping from your stand alone. We are only talking about connecting 1 wire here, vs. 1 boost hose. So pretty damned easy setup. Just takes some time to dial in your voltage mapping to match your configuration.

With F-cons we have all sorts of options ( for those of us ninja enough to manipulate the software and wiring) to utilize all sorts of safety features and map activation/deactivation.

OR you can simply hook up the boost hose and map your fuel accordingly.

Thanks

Ben

[Obiwan]

That's probably full of typos, but Im tired and can't proof read right now.

[36Chambers]

Sorry about your dog Ben..I had to put mine down not to long ago..Hardest thing to do..He is a part of the family.


Drew

[Obiwan]

That's awful, sorry Drew. Didn't know you went through that too. This was the small dog?

[lenny]

Whats the price on your kit, Ben?

[Obiwan]

Which kit Lenny? Stage II or stage III? Difference is a fully digital in car controller Vs. a controller in the engine bay that doesn't have all the bells and whistles.

The kits also vary by how much power you make. That determines wether you need a single nozzle system, or a dual nozzle, and all the associated parts.

thanks

[RogerM]

What would a kit for 800hp on AEM go for?

Thanks!

[4wd-eclipse]

Me too Ben ... I need to know the price for your MWI kit for 700-800 hp.
So please PM or Email me the price for both Stage II and Stage III. BTW you already emailed me the OLD prices few weeks ago.

[Craig Bush]

damn Ben, this thread just keeps on delivering!

i'm glad you mentioned multi-tank set-ups, as i've been wondering about this. i read an article that was discussing the merits of straight meth vs meth/water... it proposed that it may be better to spray straight meth into the turbo compressor, and then meth/water at the traditional pre-throttle body location. would require a dual tank/pump setup of course... aby thoughts?

also wondering how you fell about using wate/meth with E-85.

as always, much appreciation for your time Ben! Don reported the fans looked good btw, and i'm sorry to hear about you dog man - sucks when you have to have to say goodbye to a long-term and loyal four-legged friend.

craig

[Obiwan]

Guys the easiest way for me to give you proper pricing for your particular application is to e-mail me. Then I can tell you exactly what you need tailored to your setup.

As for multi tanked, multi pumps systems, well..... you are of course increasing your chance of failure, as with anything, two fold by doing so. Multi tank I like, multi pump not so much.

Also the biggest issue for us as Supra owners spraying pre-turbo is tricky. Our turbos spin at super high revolutions and a water droplet smashing into a finely machined turbo blade at wicked high impeller rpm's could distort the wheel and cause damage to the turbo, or worse knock it off balance and possibly shell the thing. SO although I have put serious consideration into that setup I ruled against it for our cars. I also have seen no reason why we would need it. Our setups run cool, or at least mine do... ?

Our setups (Supras) tend to be very efficient versus say a domestic turbocharged car. For instance I just dyno'd in PHX, AZ heat on Saturday and monitored everything to check for efficiency.

Here is a brief run down. I sold my RSP TRD widebody to a gentlemen in PHX, however he wanted it equipped with water/meth after reading this thread so he could avoid race gas expenses and hassle, plus have the safety and convenience of methanol. So I installed a custom setup for him to match that particular 1100RWHP application.

So we converted the RSP over to pump gas and staged Water/Methanol injection.

We did a low boost tune for now until he gets comfortable with the car. At exactly 26.7 PSI it made 877 RWHP on 90 octane pump gas. Pretty cool start.

We have 11 more PSI we plan to turn it up to later on and a 150 shot of nitrous on top of that just for kicks. The car is going to be a total screamer.

Some pics of the completed meth kit to follow. It was extremely tight in the trunk due to the system, battery, nitrous, etc. However we found a way to do a multi-tank setup and still have it integrate into the system. We mounted the tanks right to the side of the box and the cover is being retrofitted to make just the tank caps accessible and highly streamlined.

We didn't have enough room to come out of the bottom of both tanks so I sealed the bottom of one and then connected them on the sides near the bottom with custom bulkheads, then fed the pump out of just one. Worked really well and is highly functional. Why two tanks? Simple, lasts twice as long so you have real range with the car. Loooong road trips, heavy race days, what ever.

The Methanol is staged and sprays 1 nozzle at lower boost and then progressively ramps in the 2nd nozzle at higher boost. Stage III controller shows you meth output, boost, and injector pulse width in the cab.

The RED LED's on either side of the tach are for low tank level. Activation lights arent needed as teh display shows you what you need to know. I did two because, hey redundancy is safe.

The Intake Air Temps under boost with the setup in the RSP were exactly 97 degrees at their highest. That was just a freckle above ambient. Talk about efficiency and function. That was with a big frame GT42/76R Turbo feeding a greddy 4 row, to true 3.5 Inch intercooler piping to the intake.

The nozzles are staggered the way I like them for the best possible atomization of the fluid and the system is again staged. 1 625 nozzle ramps up initially and a 2nd 625 is phazed in at higher boost. We did about 10 pulls on the dyno and when it was all said and done we could barely tell that any methanol was used at all. The tanks were still almost full.

Some pics attached.

[Obiwan]

I put a small angle in each nozzle towards the TB. I also did stack welds on each pipe to ensure a good seal and multiple threads once tapped.

These are raw shots when we were putting it together so please excuse the mess on the table.

[RogerM]

Where do you like to mount the IAT sensor in your setup? If in the intake how do you avoid heat soaking it?

Thanks

[Obiwan]

Heat soak? Well ideally you want it in the intake itself so that it monitors exactly what is going on in there. SO if it's heat soaked then it's hot in there lol.

In this particular car the IAT is on top of the manifold near the 5/6 cylinders.

Your IAT shouldn't suffer from heat soak really. It should always monitor at least close to accurate when in use. IF not that would be a pretty inefficient sensor I would imagine. Especially considering your mapping is dependent on it (at least with better stand alones) and that mapping would be affected with even a 15-20 degree variant.

In the case of the Supra pictured above we were seeing 20 degree or more changes in IAT within less then second when under load.

[Sethron71]

Just wanted to subscribe and say thank you Ben for the great information! And thank you R.K. for turning us onto this thread!

Ben quick question I have asked in another Meth thread but do you have any flow gauge readings?

My kit is supposed to be a 600cc nozzle at 100psi and I run a Shurflow 150psi pump. I run the Labonte failsafe and gauge(which I now see is kinda useless via the split line theory!). At 18psi I read 1000+cc/min and as high as 1200cc/min at 12psi. So I am curious if my nozzle is not actually a 600cc but larger. So if you have any gauge reading or imput on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Also can't wait to go stand alone and take full advantage of the meth, stock ECU and timing FTL!

P.S. Sorry to hear about the dog but sometimes it is for the best and the right thing.

Thank you again for the great information!
Seth