Anthony Santora @ SAC Performance Shady and Misrepresentation of Tilton Clutch BEWARE

[Suprafied]

All,

I write this about poor transaction I encountered with Anthony Santora of SAC Performance (Protein Shake on SF and also using “Hurricanes” Steve O account on SF).

For Sale Thread being referenced:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...ghlight=tilton

In March 2012, I reviewed a for sale ad that member “Hurricane” posted about a used Tilton Triple Carbon clutch that had new carbon discs, hydraulic release bearing mount, stainless lines, thickness gage and extra pressure rings. “Hurricane” indicated in his ad that he was willing to trade for RPS Carbon/Carbon Twin disc clutch assembly.
Since I had a freshly rebuilt and upgraded RPS twin carbon/carbon clutch assembly, I decided to text “Hurricane” to see if a deal could be met.


Quickly, I was greeted by a return email that was from Anthony Santora and not Steve O. who supposedly issued the for sale ad. I didn’t think at first, but this right there is a violation in SF for selling items for another member.


Not being cautious, I responded with the following:

On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:42 AM, Douglas Pelsor <doug.pelsor@gmail.com> wrote:
Anthony,

I have freshly rebuilt RPS strapless twin w/ lightened flywheel in my possession. It is unused since rebuilt and still remains in the packaging from RPS. In additional to the clutch, the full install kit accompanies it for seamless install (TB, fasteners, clips and so on). I am the sole owner of this clutch since new and would like to inquire about trading for the Tilton you have up for sale.

Beyond the SF ad, can you provide more details about the clutch kit beyond it has two passes and no TB? Btw, what kind of cash + RPS twin trade you are looking for?
Doug P.
(aka Suprafied on SF's)


According to the actual seller, Anthony Santora, the clutch had less than 5 miles of use, 2 drag passes and was in great working condition to be used except it needed a hydraulic release bearing to complete it. He indicated that he didn’t need such clutch at this time due to the state he was in with his automatic to manual conversion and high horsepower build. Therefore, he wish to trade it for a lesser clutch that could still work with his lesser goal.

Conversations took place between Anthony and I as I wanted to know more about the clutch. Pictures and details of the clutch were exchanged along with photos of my offered clutch assembly. To validate a such expensive part, I chose to contact Tilton Engineering to get feedback about the service life of this clutch #2030.

On Mar 1, 2012, at 12:43 PM, Anthony Santora <boostin455@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes. Should be through world Motorsports. It's # 2030

Anthony Santora
SAC Performance
546 South Reading Avenue
Boyertown, PA , 19512
www.sacperformance.com

On Mar 1, 2012, at 11:45 AM, Doug Pelsor <doug.pelsor@gmail.com> wrote:
Anthony,

Thanks for the response. Do you have the serial number for this clutch so I can inquire about its service history to Tilton?

Doug

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:35 AM, Anthony Santora <boostin455@yahoo.com> wrote:
Doug,

Measurements as follow:

Used plates:

First Floater: 3.98mm (.156")
First Drive Plate: 3.72mm (.146")
Second Floater: 5.09mm (.200")
Second Drive Plate: 3.97mm (.155")
Third Floater: 3.98mm (.156")

NEW PLATES:

First Floater: 3.98mm (.156")
First drive plate: 4.88mm (.196")
Second drive plate: 4.90mm (.193")
Third Drive plate: 4.09mm (.161")
Fourth Drive plate 4.92mm (.193")

The individual measurements do not matter as much as the overall stack height.

Thank you Doug,

Anthony Santora


Upon discussing with Kirk Skafuel @ Tilton Engineering about the information that Anthony provided, he felt that it sounded to be in satisfactory condition, but should be sent it for inspection and validation. At the same time, I contacted other members with Tilton experience (Thanks Greg) to get feedback on what the seller provided me. Greg C. suggested that the clutch sounds to be in good condition, but I should send it in replace the diaphragm fingers as they can be easily damaged upon initial setup or if one fails to install a pedal stop.

Based on Kirk’s @ Tilton response from Anthony’s measurement feedback, a quote for new hydraulic release bearing and Greg C’s recommendation from his direct experience with Tilton Clutches, I felt that I was getting a fair deal to exchange my fully rebuilt and unused since rebuild, strapless upgraded, RPS twin Carbon/ Carbon Clutch Assembly (w/ new install hardware) + $550 USD for lightly used Tilton Triple Carbon Clutch Assembly with extra carbon discs and no hydraulic throw-out bearing. Anthony asked if I would cover shipping both ways in which I agreed to. He stated that shipping from his shop to my location would ~$20-30. I agreed and he then added $25.00 to the $550.00 to process my payment via credit card through his shop.

Shortly thereafter, I received the clutch and choose to inspect it for its stated condition. Upon investigation, it was determine that the provided measurements were significantly different than informed which made me more concerned from the information Kirk provided me about allowable thicknesses of the floaters and drive discs. Immediately, I sent the clutch in under the RMA #7964 per Kirk S.

*SEE INITIAL INVESTIGATION PAGE 1 and 2 ATTACHEMENTS

A couple weeks pass and I receive a response from Kirk @ Tilton about the status of my clutch. Sadly he informed that the so called less than 5-mile clutch was actually surpassed in its service life and would require $1,700 to be brought back into an acceptable level with the supplied pressure ring, but w/o a warranty due to the other used discs/floaters.

7964 Douglas Pelsor.jpg

[Suprafied]

Stunned and shocked, I decided to contact the seller to see what could be done as I went from a clutch in perfect order (RPS rebuilt twin strapless C/C) to a spent Tilton triple Carbon needing at least a partial but ideally full carbon rebuild. Anthony responded with the following:

I told you in the beginning it was used and as is. It's a clutch, it's a wear item. I took the measurements in my shop and did not mislead you at all. This was a 6200 clutch new. Even with the rebuild your still 2,000$ under retail. I could of easily sold it for 3500$ as my one customer just sold his after 8,000 miles on it for 4,100$. I told the truth as I said I would and the clutch was in working order. I gave you the extra lines and new pressure plates as well. I well beyond my initial plan. I could of sold it without the other disc and Pete set for a easy 2500. I'm sorry and it's unfortunate. If I had use for it I'd take it back and put it in my car. It worked as given to you. Tilton just wants money. 1600 is outrageous. I'm sorry Doug. I truly am.

Anthony Santora


On Apr 13, 2012, at 11:05 PM, "Douglas Pelsor" <doug.pelsor@gmail.com> wrote:
Anthony,

I am sorry to hear of your troubles on all facets of life and work, but I cannot agree with such response as you significantly misrepresented this clutch in your ad, phone discussions and emails seen below. I feel that at the least a refund should be offered.

Regards,

Douglas Pelsor

From: Anthony Santora [mailto:boostin455@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 10:43 PM
To: Douglas Pelsor
Subject: Re: Tilton.

That is ridiculous. I'm extremely surprised. The clutch worked perfectly. 1600$ is insane. I am speechless. I currently got my car running and darrin flew up to tune it and during tuning the oil pump let loose and destroyed my new motor and new turbo kit. I'm out 15,000$. I wish I could help you out but I am out of money and currently fighting insurance companies as at my job I recently got severe concussion and broken nose due to some drunk idiot. My luck is at its worst and I cannot do anything as I wish I could. Hate to say it but the clutch was obviously as is as discussed and I cannot afford to help out with it. I am sorry and sincerely apologize.

Anthony Santora


On Apr 13, 2012, at 10:38 PM, "Douglas Pelsor" <doug.pelsor@gmail.com> wrote:
Anthony,

I write you in response to my findings since accepting this clutch per our agreement based on the exchange of your used Tilton triple carbon clutch w/ extra discs, no HRB and only 3 passes of use since rebuild for my unused since rebuild RPS upgraded strapless twin carbon/carbon assembly plus $550.

Upon receiving the clutch, I choose to perform my own inspection based on your claimed values of the disc conditions and thicknesses. Once I completed my assessment, it was determined that your claimed thicknesses and conditions were incorrect in some instances.

Before attempting to use this clutch, I contact Tilton and chose to send it to Kirk S @ Tilton Engineering for a full inspection based on all the supplied components from you. Per the attachments, you will see my assessment/email that I discussed with Kirk based on our initial conversation prior to the deal being completed.

After being assessed by Tilton, it was determined that this clutch was in considerably worse shape than informed per your ad quoted email from below:

Doug,

I understand where your coming from. However my tilton new was $6,200 from Titan Motorsports... Even 2 New RPS twins don't add up to that. Me giving you a tilton with not even 5 miles on it PLUS the new discs and plates plus brand new mounting plate is me taking a big hit. If this kit your offering is brand new freshly rebuilt with the kit etc and will bolt right up no issues ready to go, than I guess I can take the loss and do it. I'd really like $750 but if you could come to me or pay the shipping $500 will be fine. Let me know.

Thanks,

Anthony Santora

www.sacperformance.com

I believe for having to invest an additional $1,750 ( new cover, (2) new discs, rebuilding and extra shipping charges to and from Tilton) + $300 throw-out bearing needing to be purchased + $550 cash + fully rebuilt RPS twin C/C clutch (valued at $2,600) that you misrepresented this product and its condition is was actually in.

At this point, I would like to discuss what resolution you could offer based on the findings that were discovered per Tilton. Over the next couple days, please respond via email or contact me at the number below.

Best Regards,

Doug Pelsor


In all of the 10+ years of being an active member here I have yet to encounter such loss by a shady seller nor have I "pushed" off products to another party as a seller without being able to rectify a situation that was misrepresented.

I feel my feedback score shows my level of assurance when it comes to selling used/new products to private parties and wish to bring caution against anyone planning to deal with seller(s) referenced in this post.

At this point, I have one option left to exercise that may resolve a portion of this situation.

DP

[Patjza80]

Sorry to hear man

[Hurrakaine]

Doug,

I am terribly terribly sorry about this. I really am at a loss for words right now. Do you have Anthony Santora's number? I can give it to you if you would like? If I can help in any way, please let me know


Steve Outterbridge

[Suprafied]

Doug,

I am terribly terribly sorry about this. I really am at a loss for words right now. Do you have Anthony Santora's number? I can give it to you if you would like? If I can help in any way, please let me know

Steve Outterbridge
267-625-4915

Steve,

I spoke with him recently ,according to my emails, due to the actual condition the clutch is in per Tilton. He commented and stated where he feels his obligation is in the transaction. Personally, I don't agree and hope he reconsiders in a potential resolution to resolve such dilemma.

In the future, I don't recommend allowing others to use your status to sell items on SF's.

[KenHenderson]

This is a REALLY bad deal and to have it happen to a truly upstanding member makes it even worse. How one can go from a clutch with "less than 5-miles on it" to the Tilton inspection report regarding the same clutch is beyond me. I don't see how the guy can look himself in the mirror when he shaves in the morning. I hope you get it resolved to your benefit, Doug.

Ken.

[Hurrakaine]

I've always been hesitant on buying and selling used items, because sadly, its hard to know when the seller is telling the truth. In this case, I'm not sure what to think, however its fairly obvious that the clutch was purchased due to the fact that measurements were provided, that both the buyer, and Tilton found to be satisfactory. It is also sadly obvious that these measurements were incorrect, and had Tilton, and the buyer had known, or have gotten correct measurements, there is a good chance this transaction would have went far differently, or never have even happened.

Also troubling to me is this portion of an email from Anthony to Doug:

".........The clutch worked perfectly. 1600$ is insane. I am speechless. I currently got my car running and darrin flew up to tune it and during tuning the oil pump let loose and destroyed my new motor and new turbo kit. I'm out 15,000$........"

Darrin did fly up to tune his car, and yes it did blow up on the first pull at 8-10 psi. How that happened, I have no real idea, but what I do know, is that his "new motor" is the factory stock 150K+ long block, and he is trying to sell his "new turbo kit" as a kit with a few miles on it. An explanation is needed in order.

Ray Charles could see that things don't add up here.

With all of that in mind, and considering that I feel that honesty is lacking a bit here, I would personally suggest that Doug and Anthony figure out a solution. Perhaps Anthony is willing to give Doug his old clutch back, and the 5xx, and Doug returns the Tilton, or something that makes both parties satisfied.

I did talk to Anthony on the phone, he told me he was at work till 4AM (EST) tonight, and that he would sign in, and tell his side of the story, and try to work things out.

In the future, I don't recommend allowing others to use your status to sell items on SF's.

I agree, so many times have I tried to help others, and it has came back to bite me.

[ProteinShake]

Being shop owner, Master technician , fabricator , etc in my years have never ever had an experience like this. Half of those emails you left information out that is important criteria. You placing this on here to bash me and my shop is utter immaturity. I responded in email accordingly and phone calls and even when you recently approached me with the tilton feedback I was as proper and bussiness like as possible and held my cool absolutely fine. I was in a meeting with a few other show owners at the time of receiving your email and they had even asked how I am being so polite back. I responded " I am loyal and respectful to customers or even people I deal with to keep drama and raged activity to a minimal." I stated fr day one this clutch WAS in working order and it being a clutch and a wear item it is "AS IS" in accordance I have not ignored you not disrespected you in any manner. Posting this on here as "Mis Leading and shady" when I DID NEITHER is completely Absurd. If I was in better shake to keep drama down and the typical forum bullshit like this down I would of offered to give your $500 back to you but I CANNOT afford to fill my fridge right now or pay medical bills let alone think of doing that. With this said I once again apologize for this. To also clear things up I do not understand how my measurements with a micrometer were " off quite a bit". That's beyond me as my measurements are normally right on. To add I also have you an extra set of carbon disc and 2 extra stainless lines and new pressure plates. So me being generous and giving those with the setup ( an extra $800+ witty of material) obviously wasn't kind enough either ? I'm not responding on her any further as I am not going to have computer access for a while. I hope to hear no further complaints through other SF members that are not only customers of mine but members also for over a decade. Thank you and take care.

-Anthony

[skylinegtr20]

I am with the buyer on this one. With all the information/evidence posted, Hurrakaine confirming less than truthful responses & a less than impressive response from the seller its hard not to take sides...

- For a $6200 clutch w/5 miles I don't understand why you would sell it for so cheap and with $800 worth of goodies unless it was fubared?
- If your measurements are not wrong why did buyer & tilton confirm lower numbers?
- If "important criteria" is missing from the emails, post it! This is the time to do so...
- If your respectful to customers & everyone why are you answering emails in meetings and talking about customers without them knowing? (obviously you didn't praise the guy when mentioning to your friends)
- Not responding isn't going to resolve this issue nor will it help your appearance to future clientele
- OP is a long time member of SF with a great track record so its hard to believe he would go out of his way to bash you or your shop.

[Letsride]

I am waiting to see the resolve on this as I am waiting to bar certain individuals from selling/being on here. It will be in the seller's best interest to clear this up and not ruin Steve's rep on here.

Now everyone should understand why we do not let people use others' ids for selling crap here. Great example here!

[Tim1137]

This whole transaction should be completely reversed, and the shipping / inspection charges should be split between involved parties, and the case should be CLOSED. There is no alternative realistically that keeps everyone from getting the screw job.

[Suprafied]

I am waiting to see the resolve on this as I am waiting to bar certain individuals from selling/being on here. It will be in the seller's best interest to clear this up and not ruin Steve's rep on here.

Now everyone should understand why we do not let people use others' ids for selling crap here. Great example here!

Appreciated

[Suprafied]

No response from seller since message posted above. I am now taking this issue to the next level.

Moderators, I would be ready to issue ban stick to associated parties that contributed to this dilemma .

[Kim.]

Being shop owner, Master technician , fabricator , etc in my years have never ever had an experience like this. Half of those emails you left information out that is important criteria. You placing this on here to bash me and my shop is utter immaturity. I responded in email accordingly and phone calls and even when you recently approached me with the tilton feedback I was as proper and bussiness like as possible and held my cool absolutely fine. I was in a meeting with a few other show owners at the time of receiving your email and they had even asked how I am being so polite back. I responded " I am loyal and respectful to customers or even people I deal with to keep drama and raged activity to a minimal." I stated fr day one this clutch WAS in working order and it being a clutch and a wear item it is "AS IS" in accordance I have not ignored you not disrespected you in any manner. Posting this on here as "Mis Leading and shady" when I DID NEITHER is completely Absurd. If I was in better shake to keep drama down and the typical forum bullshit like this down I would of offered to give your $500 back to you but I CANNOT afford to fill my fridge right now or pay medical bills let alone think of doing that. With this said I once again apologize for this. To also clear things up I do not understand how my measurements with a micrometer were " off quite a bit". That's beyond me as my measurements are normally right on. To add I also have you an extra set of carbon disc and 2 extra stainless lines and new pressure plates. So me being generous and giving those with the setup ( an extra $800+ witty of material) obviously wasn't kind enough either ? I'm not responding on her any further as I am not going to have computer access for a while. I hope to hear no further complaints through other SF members that are not only customers of mine but members also for over a decade. Thank you and take care.

-Anthony

there is a huge difference selling a clutch "as is and in working order" and "less than 5 miles on it"

If you told him it had less than 5 miles but instead instead it is fubar, you should make it right and give reverse the deal.

[Letsride]

I hope to hear no further complaints through other SF members that are not only customers of mine but members also for over a decade. Thank you and take care.

-Anthony

So Anthony, this is your final answer to this? From your response it seems as though you could care less about man-ing up and taking care of this. You seem to care less that your friend Steve can be permanently be banned and his reputation tarnished because of your inept care to be honest.

Well, you have 24 hours to reply to me either here or by PM before I take further action.

Sleep well..................

[Hurrakaine]

I'd be so devastated, supra's are my life.

[PriligySir]

Your comments are very appreciated

[Letsride]

Seller has now been banned!

Instead of replying to OP here he chose to pm me with his tirade.

Case closed!


OP......sorry it did not work out for you. Expensive lesson learned!

[Suprafied]

Just an update, my CC chose to refund me the cash exchanged for this deal after investigation of this transaction. The seller did choose to contact me during the investigation and proceeded to call me out to respond to him regarding this situation.

DP

[sinajoon7]

Great news on the refund!

[justanmk4]

Happy to read you got your
Money back.