I need to pick a car for under 15000!!!!! 2 choices!

[gtimportfanatic]

i love them both.. the subaru is my choice because im familiar with it.. but the viper sounding volvos aint bad lol.. my boy just picked up an s60 and he loves it.. he doesnt have the R tho.. but i still think its hotness

[Eggy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Thorsen

This is important. The follow up question is, if you have to spend ~$15k to get a clean example, will you be satisfied with driving it stock for an extended period of time?

I think yes I would be satisfied because I assume with 15 K I could get one with stock Navi. I drove my Evo IX stock with the exemption of springs, wheels, gauges and cat-back exhaust. If anything I think adding an exhaust to any of the cars I buy would make me happy.

From the few road tests I've glanced over - and please note I have no great knowledge of Volvos, they are largely off my radar - they are never overly praised for their handling prowess. I think the Subaru/Saabaru would be superior in that regard.

Dually noted on this one, for a track car I think the Volvo is a bit to porky.

One thing for you to research is weight distribution. Another is the functional split of the AWD system. In other words, is the S60R going to be effectively FWD until it detects slip or is it closer to full-time 50/50 split? If it's a 60/40 weight distribution and a FWD-unti-it-slips AWD system... Pass.

Not sure about this. Did a bit of research and found this More sophisticated than the XC70's system, the S60 can transfer almost 70 percent of its power to the rear wheels, reducing the understeer that plagues lesser Volvos when they are pushed around fast corners.

Volvo engineers even (deep breath now) talk of the S60R's ability to oversteer. They have incorporated a sportier version of the dynamic stability and traction control system (DSTC) that the company says allows sportier driving. Push the DSTC button once and Volvo says its vehicle stability control system allows a little more slip from the rear wheels than normal, allowing you to hang the back end out like a true road warrior. To hear the engineers tell it, one would think the modification turns the R into a lurid, Corvettelike, tail-slewing terror. In fact, the modified DSTC allows but a smidgen of oversteer: A safety-indoctrinated Swede's interpretation of fun is just a little less liberal than my own. Obviously, Volvo engineers are the types who wear sensible shoes even when they go disco dancing (still a popular activity in Sweden, I'm told).

That said, the vehicle stability control system can be shut down completely by pushing the same button five times (Swedish for insuring that you really want to be that foolish). For once, I did not feel the need to test Volvo's claims, as the driving rain was making the electric nanny an appreciated companion considering the poor traction on the water-soaked track. I valued it even more the next day when spiriting the V70R wagon around the twisty roads surrounding Paul Ricard. Essentially one of Volvo's ubiquitous full-size wagons with all the S60R's go-faster goodies, all those traction enhancements were a welcome companion on the still rain-soaked roads.

Where did you come up with those WHP numbers? They seem arbitrary unless you are referencing some performance goal. What is the weight on each of the cars you are looking at? If the 9-2X is 3300 lbs and the S60R is 3600 lbs, are you still going to be okay with 300 WHP in each? There can also be a big difference between 300 and 350 WHP. In some cases, that can be the difference between a stock turbo and an aftermarket upgrade with supporting fuel.

you make a good point. I guess I want the car to be as fast or slightly faster than my old Evo 9. Maybe possibly run mid to high 12s on pump?

Next thing on your list to research: What does it take to get to those power levels for each platform? I believe a Legacy GT can do that on stock turbo but I don't think a 9-2X/WRX can. I have no clue on the Volvo.

The volvo has a flash that boosts it about 40 crank hp but if I remember correctly it's quite pricey... something like 1000 bucks. As for other mods there aren't many.

That being the case, go for the newest, lowest mileage, best maintained example you can find. DO NOT SETTLE. I've made that mistake on multiple occasions and kick myself each time. Pay a little more for a private party sale that includes all maintenance records.

Great advice, thank you man.

I think your best bet is to spend some quality time on a Volvo board or two and see what the basic mods cost and what they net. Are ECU reflashes available? If so, is it a do-it-yourself affair or something that requires a $600 mail order package? How about downpipes, exhausts, etc? How do the stock clutches hold up? Are they even available with a manual gearbox?

After spending a bit of times it seems like I mentioned before that there's a mail in flash that costs around 1000 and there are a few exhaust options out there. I'm not sure about the strength of the clutches on these cars. The one nice thing is that they have a 6-speed gearbox, which one of these other cars offer (unless I go with the spec B legacy).

[/quote]I think any of the three would have a lot of potential as a cool daily driver. I would think they would go in the following order of sportiness:

WRX -> 9-2X -> Legacy GT -> S60R

Likewise, they would be reversed in order of comfort. Once you do your research, you can decide which to emphasize.

Good luck and keep us posted.[/QUOTE]

Thanks a lot T. I appreciate you taking the time out to open my eyes a bit.

After thinking hard I think I'm really leaning towards the Legacy GT. It seems to do everything right and can be a fun car at the track too... Jeez this is frustrating. I have driven a wrx and legacy GT before but not an S60R so it's really bugging me.

Beau: Your comments have been expressed by a few reviews I read as well so I will definitely be critical when judging engine sound. The boxer is tough to beat, but from inside the car it doesn't sound that great either IMO.

[ScrappyJack]

I'll just try to hit a few quick bullet points.

• Mods. Have you been to ipd.com yet? Denroll has a V70R and I think quick does as well. Denroll's is modified, to the best of my knowledge, and that's the site he suggested.
• Power output. Now you need to find some idea of what each car does stock and with basic mods. A cat-back on an Evo IX doesn't do much but it makes a significant difference on an MKIV Supra.
• Power goals. "As quick as a near-stock Evo IX" is a much more useful performance reference than an arbitrary WHP number. For an Evo IX that only had a cat-back as a power mod, I'd say more like low 13s to high 12s at roughly 105 MPH should more than satisfy your need for speed.This is why weight-to-power ratios or trap speeds are useful: it makes it much easier to compare relative performance across differing platforms. After all, to be about as fast as you are talking about, a first generation Miata only needs about 200 WHP.
• Gearboxes. Don't get over-sold on "more gears is better." I'd take an Evo IX 5-speed over an MR or STi 6-speed. It's more about the durability gear spacing for me.
• The final decision. Ultimately, you will have to drive one to know for sure because so much of the car experience is subjective. What looks perfect for you on paper may end up really turning you off once you sit in or drive it.

Some of it may also come down to timing. That is, if you must have a car as soon as you return to Canadia, you will likely have a much easier time finding a Subaru than the Volvo R car.

For instance, in central Florida, there is not a lot of value placed on AWD for inclement weather and Subarus are not nearly as common as they are in New England or the Pacific Northwest. I had a heck of a time finding a Legacy GT with a manual gearbox when I was looking.


Fortunately, you have plenty of time to to browse the Subaru and Volvo boards to get more information.

[Danner]

ive heard bad things about the s60r. Apparently burns oil like a mofo and has bad transmission issues. Fine if you drive it like a kia, its not really built for aggressive driving even tho its an R "Racing" ?

[Eggy]

Thorsen: Thank you very very much for your continued effort to steer me in the right direction. I will keep up my research and when I make the final decision I'll let you know!

Danner: Did not hear about that but I will agree it definitely doesn't seem like the kind of car suited for the track. Spirited daily driving yes, but maybe not the track.

[crisco3]

2005 Wrx

[Malloy]

Originally Posted by Eggy

Thorsen: Thank you very very much for your continued effort to steer me in the right direction. I will keep up my research and when I make the final decision I'll let you know!

Danner: Did not hear about that but I will agree it definitely doesn't seem like the kind of car suited for the track. Spirited daily driving yes, but maybe not the track.

I looked at both cars recently. I'm probably going to go for a 1g TSX since I'm more interested in long term (200k+ miles) durability and fuel economy. FWD with all seasons is all I need in Philadelphia.

After talking to both Legacy and S60R owners, reading the forums and asking here on trusty SFOC...I felt more comfortable with the Subaru. I worry about modding the Volvo and driving it hard. Plus, not many techs know the S60R that well in my area. There are plenty of Subaru techs around here that I trust. I drive all of my cars hard. I currently have an FX35 which I beat pretty hard..and it takes it just fine. I wouldn't feel so comfortable driving a S60R this hard. I know the TSX will take it just fine ; with that said, the Volvo looks smarter and higher end. Plus, the seats, big brakes and stock wheels rock

[Toph]

ya my legacy gt was the most reliable car i ever owned. make sure to get an accesport as it makes a huuuge difference even stock on stage 1. it took me a while to find where to plug it in, the port is located under the carpet under the glove box on the passenger side. i promise if you get a LGT you won't regret it, take my word on it.

[Eggy]

Hey guys, for the reason Malloy stated I have decided to steer clear of the Volvo, however I will give it a test drive when I'm home just to make sure. I just have a feeling it's going to feel sloppy.

So now I have it narrowed down to a legacy GT wagon or a 9-2x aero.

The problem is 5-speed gt wagons seem to be extremely sought after since they're quite rare. I have a feeling with some luck I can find a 9-2x for around 8 or 9k with around 40-50k miles whereas the equivalent 5-speed legacy gt wagon would cost 13k on a VERY good day.

I still like the GT more, but with the $ I could spend on a stock lgt I could get the 9-2 modded completely to my liking and with possibly lower miles...

Toph: It's a great car no doubt, and I don't question the reliability either. Legacies are EVERYWHERE here in Japan so I know there must be a good reason.

[ScrappyJack]

Originally Posted by Malloy

I looked at both cars recently. I'm probably going to go for a 1g TSX since I'm more interested in long term (200k+ miles) durability and fuel economy. FWD with all seasons is all I need in Philadelphia.

Eggy - For an only car with sporting aspirations, DO NOT go for a FWD. Please.

Originally Posted by Eggy

Hey guys, for the reason Malloy stated I have decided to steer clear of the Volvo, however I will give it a test drive when I'm home just to make sure. I just have a feeling it's going to feel sloppy.

Between now and when you get home, scour that Volvo website. Lurk, check out FAQs, search for common issues, then post a few specific questions. You may end up deciding that there is no reason to test drive the Volvo or you may decide you are more comfortable with its reliability.

I still like the GT more, but with the $ I could spend on a stock lgt I could get the 9-2 modded completely to my liking and with possibly lower miles...

I think that is very sound logic.

One more "out of the box" suggestion would be to look at the price of turbo Foresters. I believe they have the same drivetrain as the LGT (don't quote me on that) but may be more common or less in demand, resulting in lower prices. They may be too heavy or too big or too goofy looking for your tastes, but it might be worth looking into them.

Otherwise, I think you could be very happy with the 9-2X. It should be more sporting (stock-for-stock) than an LGT but just slightly more upscale and less common than a WRX.


And thank you for supplying quality information rather than another random "What car should I get for $15k?" thread.

[Eggy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Thorsen

Eggy - For an only car with sporting aspirations, DO NOT go for a FWD. Please.

No worries. I had a taste of AWD and I've been hooked ever since.

Between now and when you get home, scour that Volvo website. Lurk, check out FAQs, search for common issues, then post a few specific questions. You may end up deciding that there is no reason to test drive the Volvo or you may decide you are more comfortable with its reliability.

I will, but the more I look at the Volvo the less appealing it is to me. My grandma drives one... something about that just makes me uneasy.

I think that is very sound logic.

One more "out of the box" suggestion would be to look at the price of turbo Foresters. I believe they have the same drivetrain as the LGT (don't quote me on that) but may be more common or less in demand, resulting in lower prices. They may be too heavy or too big or too goofy looking for your tastes, but it might be worth looking into them.

Are you sure you're not thinking about the outbacks? They look very similar but they don't seem as sleek to me as the Legacy GTs

Otherwise, I think you could be very happy with the 9-2X. It should be more sporting (stock-for-stock) than an LGT but just slightly more upscale and less common than a WRX.


And thank you for supplying quality information rather than another random "What car should I get for $15k?" thread.

Anytime brotha. Thanks again

-Aaron

[ShanTTarbinian]

Shalom

[zeeshan66]

volvo get's my pic. very safe, very sleek, very fast and very rare

[Z28wrx]

I'd go with the Legacy GT.

[PhoeniXDownVII]

The boxer motors piss me off. It's a pain in the ass to replace the spark plugs. The two head's always leak. The Subies with an exhaust sound like two small 2 cyllander motors put-puting at the same time and actually sound BAD....it's getting old. Both of my Legacy's (98 GT, 96 L) have the same list of 20 quirks (Random dash lights out, sticky door lock, damn frameless windows, etc). They may have stepped up the quality a big amount with the newest model (they made a better seal on the Series II 25EL I believe...) but at this point I've given up on suby's. Too heavy and the AWD isn't worth it. Give me FWD with snows for winter anyday.

I vote the Volvo- for obvious reasons.

[SaleenKiller]

LGT FTW! Volvo's are unreliable. My brother in law has had 5 of them. Ranging from the S40 to the S80 TT. Constantly in the shop.

[SaleenKiller]

Originally Posted by Toph

ya my legacy gt was the most reliable car i ever owned. make sure to get an accesport as it makes a huuuge difference even stock on stage 1. it took me a while to find where to plug it in, the port is located under the carpet under the glove box on the passenger side. i promise if you get a LGT you won't regret it, take my word on it.

I completely second that! The LGT really is an amazing machine. Its the "grown-up" WRX in alot of people's eyes. The Cobb software will definately make a differece. Their new air box/intake combo, & a turboback would be the way to go.

[Eggy]

if anyone finds any crazy deals on LGT wagons......... please tell me!!!!!!!! 5 speed only

[fritzz]

voted for the subie = )
seen a few with some exterior mods and they look sick

[ScrappyJack]

Originally Posted by PhoeniXDownVII

They may have stepped up the quality a big amount with the newest model (they made a better seal on the Series II 25EL I believe...) but at this point I've given up on suby's.

I think there are some inherent flaws in comparing 10-12 year old models with ones that are 3-4 years old. In this case, you are talking about some pretty significant changes in the cars and company.

Too heavy and the AWD isn't worth it. Give me FWD with snows for winter anyday.

That might work for 90 BHP commuters. That would not be the case for performance-oriented only-cars.

Originally Posted by SaleenKiller

LGT FTW! Volvo's are unreliable. My brother in law has had 5 of them. Ranging from the S40 to the S80 TT. Constantly in the shop.

Both of those last two quotes are why anecdotal evidence has to be looked at carefully.

[ScrappyJack]

Originally Posted by Eggy

Are you sure you're not thinking about the outbacks? They look very similar but they don't seem as sleek to me as the Legacy GTs

Originally Posted by Wikipedia, FWIW

In 2003, a turbocharged Forester, the XT, was released alongside the naturally-aspirated X and XS in the United States as a 2004 model, however the same model had been available since the late 1990s elsewhere in the world. The XT model features a 2.5 L turbocharged engine mated with the same Mitsubishi TD04 turbocharger used in the Subaru Impreza WRX. In fact, the engine in the 2004 to 2005 Forester XT is identical to the American market Subaru Impreza WRX STi except for using the smaller TD04 turbocharger from the WRX, a smaller intercooler, different exhaust system, and different engine management programming. Those seeking additional power for their Forester XT can replace the turbocharger and intercooler with used STI components which are readily available.

The 2003 Forester features weight-saving refinements such as an aluminum hood, perforated rails, and a hydro-formed front sub-frame.

In 2005, Subaru launched an STI variant of the Forester, the Forester STI for the Japanese Market. It shared the same engine as the 2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STI, but thanks to different tuning generated 320 bhp (240 kW).

2005 also the introduction of Subaru's AVCS system as standard on all engines used in the Forester.

2004 Subaru Forester courtesy of MSN Autos. You are looking for the Forester XT.

It may be bigger or heavier than you are looking for and may be too expensive, but you should at least give it a look to know whether or not to rule it out. They sometimes look pretty sharp with some suspension and wheels.

It may also be more costly to get performance comparable to a Legacy GT because of the added weight. You'd also want to verify which car comes with which turbo.

[Eggy]

Thanks T...

Unfortunately I cannot get over the boxy look of the forester so I might pass on that one.

Phoenix: As for Subaru's being unreliable, that's the first I've ever heard

[Ispool4u]

I used to have an 07 Legacy GT but I downgraded so I could save up to afford 2 cars.

[Eggy]

Originally Posted by Ispool4u

I used to have an 07 Legacy GT but I downgraded so I could save up to afford 2 cars.

Thank you for that gem.

I don't need an 07 though... an 05 or 06 will suit my needs just fine

[Jessupra]

legacy gt, minor mods and these things sound beasty but amazing.