US Department of Justice Demands Export/Surrender of Kaizo Skyline GT-R

[mignuts]

Originally Posted by tyndago

If you are a manufacturer, then you should not be an RI or an ICI. They are different things completely. They follow different rules and regulations on importing.

So if Kaizo was "recognized as a manufacturer" by a state, and states are the ones that deal with titling a car, then were they in the right ?

Importing auto parts is legal. Titling cars is legal. So is this not a state issue, not a federal issue now ? Up to the individual states, like marijuana laws in California ? Although Federally its not allowed, on a state level it is allowed with certain restrictions.

If Kaizo only sold rolling bodies less engine and transmission like say Rossion or Superperformance...................

If the car was already manufactured by Nissan, Kaizo just can't come out of nowhere and claim they re-manufactured this car, since they didn't build anything of their own from scratch (it isn't anything new). It is, was, and always will be a Nissan. The chassis, for one, has to be on the eligibility list. An RI would handle the DOT work, and the ICI would handle the EPA work. Funny how all the Kaizo cars had KPH gauges, which was the most obvious lack of conversion work done. I'm sure Kaizo didn't build anything from scratch, where as Nissan, who initially built this car first, got approval from their own gov't to sell these things legally. Not to mention Kaizo basically falsifying entry documents, claiming these chassis as parts, without revealing the intention to re-assemble the car. Must be nice paying only for parts customs duties. It's a smaller fraction from what a full car would cost. How did Kaizo even get away as doing DOT work for these cars when they aren't even recognized by DOT in the first place (not an RI).

Call Nissan Corporate, ask them this:

"Hi I'm _______, and I'm going to become a manufacturer in California, as well as several states. I am not recognized by DOT or EPA to do conversion work, not an RI or ICI, and I want to bring in '89-'02 Nissan Skyline GT-Rs. Can my company self certify, re-name, or re-vin these cars (with a 17-digit VIN), and sell it here under my company name? How about a Nissan Silvia from '99-'02?"

That seems pretty close to what Kaizo had going on, wouldn't you say?

[GTR-33]

Originally Posted by mignuts

That seems pretty close to what Kaizo had going on, wouldn't you say?

You still don't know what you're talking about. This whole thing has gone down all wrong for everyone involved.

First of all if Kaizo was indeed a manufacturer, they don't need to be an RI or ICI. The importation guidelines are completely different for a manufacturer.

Secondly, it is NOT illegal to re-manufacture a production car and issue a new VIN as such. There are shops in the US that do it completely legally. One in particular re-manufactures 1967 Ford Mustangs into Eleanor Mustangs. Each car receives a new US VIN and the odometer starts at zero. So no it IS NOT illegal.

I'm not saying this is what Kaizo was doing, but rather countering your claim that it is illegal to do so. The problem is that legal way is expensive. While I don't agree with our archaic importation laws which in reality have NOTHING to do with saving lives, they are still the law.

I say there really isn't any grey area in the matter. Kaizo had two completely legal ways to approach this and neither were used.

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by mignuts

"Hi I'm _______, and I'm going to become a manufacturer in California, as well as several states. I am not recognized by DOT or EPA to do conversion work, not an RI or ICI, and I want to bring in '89-'02 Nissan Skyline GT-Rs. Can my company self certify, re-name, or re-vin these cars (with a 17-digit VIN), and sell it here under my company name? How about a Nissan Silvia from '99-'02?"

That seems pretty close to what Kaizo had going on, wouldn't you say?

No, you don't get it.

If you are a manufacturer you are NOT an RI. If you are a manufacturer you are NOT an ICI. Manufacturers self certify for FMVSS, and they test as a manufacturer for the EPA.

An RI, and ICI handle vehicles not originally built to US standards. That is vehicles. They don't handle parts. No engine,no transmission is parts. No one can certify parts as a vehicle when they are in fact parts.

Kaizo was importing parts. Parts are not cars.

[xknowonex]

Speaking of re-manufacturing, what about the Saleens?

Nowhere on the title says that it is a Ford right??

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by xknowonex

Speaking of re-manufacturing, what about the Saleens?

Nowhere on the title says that it is a Ford right??

Saleen is a manufacturer. They start with a base of a Ford, and they re-manufacturer it.

[mignuts]

Originally Posted by GTR-33

You still don't know what you're talking about. This whole thing has gone down all wrong for everyone involved.

First of all if Kaizo was indeed a manufacturer, they don't need to be an RI or ICI. The importation guidelines are completely different for a manufacturer.

Secondly, it is NOT illegal to re-manufacture a production car and issue a new VIN as such. There are shops in the US that do it completely legally. One in particular re-manufactures 1967 Ford Mustangs into Eleanor Mustangs. Each car receives a new US VIN and the odometer starts at zero. So no it IS NOT illegal.

I'm not saying this is what Kaizo was doing, but rather countering your claim that it is illegal to do so. The problem is that legal way is expensive. While I don't agree with our archaic importation laws which in reality have NOTHING to do with saving lives, they are still the law.

I say there really isn't any grey area in the matter. Kaizo had two completely legal ways to approach this and neither were used.

Can you please refer me to where Kaizo was indeed a REAL manufacturer? I fail to find a WMI when searching NHTSA's database, thus making the claim that Kaizo was indeed a full-fledged manufacturer false. Also, you might want to investigate more on Eleanor mustangs. Being that the car is not a grey market vehicle, and originally built here, it has already been approved for sale here, so your point of the Mustang is invalid. You should call Classic Restorations and ask them if their conversion process can be applied to a grey market car (i.e. Skyline GT-R), and I will bet you get NO for an answer.

[GTR-33]

Originally Posted by mignuts

Can you please refer me to where Kaizo was indeed a REAL manufacturer?

Can you also show me where I said that Kaizo was a manufacturer?

Originally Posted by mignuts

Being that the car is not a grey market vehicle,

Where the car is manufactured is irrelevant. The original intended market is irrelevant. NONE of that matters when a car is re-manufactured. A re-manufactured car IS NOT a kit car or a conversion, nor do any kit car rules and regulations apply to it. A re-manufactured car is for all intents and purposes a NEW CAR.

This is COMPLETELY different than an RI/ICI importing a car. If I were an independent manufacturer that re-manufactured GTRs for US roads it would be a 2009 whatever I want to call it because I'M now the manufacturer of the car. As long as it meets EPA and most of the FMVSS I'm golden. I certify that it crash worthy myself, I certify that it meets all EPA standards myself. I don't need independent crash or EPA testing. All liability thus falls on me.

When an Eleanor is built from a re-manufactured Mustang it ceases to be a 1967 Ford Mustang. It is a 2009 Eleanor Mustang with a new VIN and the odometer set legally to zero. Re-manufactured cars can't be built out of used parts.

[mignuts]

Originally Posted by GTR-33

Can you also show me where I said that Kaizo was a manufacturer?

Where the car is manufactured is irrelevant. The original intended market is irrelevant. NONE of that matters when a car is re-manufactured. A re-manufactured car IS NOT a kit car or a conversion, nor do any kit car rules and regulations apply to it. A re-manufactured car is for all intents and purposes a NEW CAR.

This is COMPLETELY different than an RI/ICI importing a car. If I were an independent manufacturer that re-manufactured GTRs for US roads it would be a 2009 whatever I want to call it because I'M now the manufacturer of the car. As long as it meets EPA and most of the FMVSS I'm golden. I certify that it crash worthy myself, I certify that it meets all EPA standards myself. I don't need independent crash or EPA testing. All liability thus falls on me.

When an Eleanor is built from a re-manufactured Mustang it ceases to be a 1967 Ford Mustang. It is a 2009 Eleanor Mustang with a new VIN and the odometer set legally to zero. Re-manufactured cars can't be built out of used parts.

I didn't say you said it, I posted before that Kaizo themselves claimed to be a real manufacturer in several states. Yes the origin of the car matters in this case, since these vehicles aren't on the eligibility list for importation, and we're talking about grey market cars to begin with. For all intents and purposes, Kaizo brought in parts, declared them as parts, and the parts were then used to re-assemble a vehicle, which is falsifying customs documents (a felony). That is what I'm arguing, not a car that has nothing to do with Kaizo. Hope that clarifies my point.

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by mignuts

For all intents and purposes, Kaizo brought in parts, declared them as parts, and the parts were then used to re-assemble a vehicle, which is falsifying customs documents (a felony). That is what I'm arguing, not a car that has nothing to do with Kaizo. Hope that clarifies my point.

So bringing in a fender from Japan and using it on a car is a felony ?

[GTR-33]

Originally Posted by mignuts

I didn't say you said it, I posted before that Kaizo themselves claimed to be a real manufacturer in several states. Yes the origin of the car matters in this case, since these vehicles aren't on the eligibility list for importation, and we're talking about grey market cars to begin with. For all intents and purposes, Kaizo brought in parts, declared them as parts, and the parts were then used to re-assemble a vehicle, which is falsifying customs documents (a felony). That is what I'm arguing, not a car that has nothing to do with Kaizo. Hope that clarifies my point.

Do you even read my posts and understand them? I said Kaizo COULD HAVE done the re-manufacture route in which case the country of origin DOES NOT MATTER. So all new cars sold in the US are built here and manufactured in the US? NO. The SAME APPLIES re-manufactured cars. Import eligibility list is completely irrelevant TO A MANUFACTURER.

I know what Kaizo was doing. MY POSTS WERE NOT ABOUT WHAT KAIZO was doing. READ MY POSTS. I simply countered your claim that it is illegal to re-manufacture a GTR. It is not illegal at all. You simply don't seem to understand what you're talking about and are just repeating things you've read on the internet.

So if I wanted to IMPORT a 1999 GTR I would need to be an RI/ICI and petition that it can be converted to meet all FMVSS for that model year.

If I wanted to re-manufacture a GTR into a NEW CAR. I don't need to be an RI/ICI. I can bring a chassis over as a part and certify that my NEW 2009 Davis Motorcars GTRX456 Magnum that I MANUFACTURED conforms to all 2009 FMVSS and EPA. How do you think any other manufacturer get their chassis here for new cars? Country of origin, original intended market ETC is all irrelevant in this case since I'm not converting anything I manufacturing a NEW CAR. When the chassis was actually constructed is irrelevant. Who originally constructed the chassis is irrelevant.

Toyota sold the Cavalier in Japan. The Vibe is a Toyota.

Now with all this said I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT KAIZO ACTUALLY DID, but what they COULD HAVE DONE. It is not illegal to manufacture a new car out of an old chassis.

[2jz1974]

just a little example
when ameritech did the bugatti eb110 and mclaren f1,they were branded as ameritech`s.Not bugatti`s or mclarens,as per country of origin.If you want to be technical,the cadillac allante.When pinniferrina built the complete chassis minus the drivetrain for cadillac,and flew them over for GM.then GM installed the drivetrain,nothing different then what kaizo did.The thing is kaizo never set him self up as a manufacture with nhtsa,if he did i dont believe they will be in this mess

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by 2jz1974

.When pinniferrina built the complete chassis minus the drivetrain for cadillac,and flew them over for GM.then GM installed the drivetrain,nothing different then what kaizo did.The thing is kaizo never set him self up as a manufacture with nhtsa,if he did i dont believe they will be in this mess

Many OEM companies are not even setup as manufacturers, they are distributors. While now they may produce cars in the US, originally they were only distributors representing overseas manufacturers .

BMW, Subaru, Mercedes. In California they still don't have manufacturer plates, their(press/fleet) cars have distributor plates.

[mignuts]

Originally Posted by tyndago

So bringing in a fender from Japan and using it on a car is a felony ?

The way Kaizo did it? Pretty much. From the get-go, the parts were always to be used as parts, as declared on the customs documents upon entry. You and I both know these cars were re-assembled into the same car taken apart in Japan, so why do you keep dancing around this?

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by mignuts

The way Kaizo did it? Pretty much. From the get-go, the parts were always to be used as parts, as declared on the customs documents upon entry. You and I both know these cars were re-assembled into the same car taken apart in Japan, so why do you keep dancing around this?

I was in the US Navy for 6 years. I followed what the US government did, whether I thought it was right or wrong. The laws and regulations don't always apply in the military.

The laws and regulations don't always apply in real life either. This is a victimless crime, if any laws or regulations have been in fact broken.

I know many of the owners, and I will fight for my friends, right or wrong.

Again there has been no due process, and no charges yet. People are pronouncing Kaizo guilty before there are even charges.

Overall we are talking about perhaps 50 cars vs the 30,000,000 cars sold. Thats 1.66 x 10-6 . Thats times ten to the negative 6 power.

The US government already allows Show or Display. They allow hardship exemptions. They allow waivers for non-compliance. Its really no big deal. Not something that ICE, DOT, EPA, CARB, and the FBI need to waste time and money on.

[mignuts]

Originally Posted by tyndago

I was in the US Navy for 6 years. I followed what the US government did, whether I thought it was right or wrong. The laws and regulations don't always apply in the military.

The laws and regulations don't always apply in real life either. This is a victimless crime, if any laws or regulations have been in fact broken.

I know many of the owners, and I will fight for my friends, right or wrong.

Again there has been no due process, and no charges yet. People are pronouncing Kaizo guilty before there are even charges.

Overall we are talking about perhaps 50 cars vs the 30,000,000 cars sold. Thats 1.66 x 10-6 . Thats times ten to the negative 6 power.

The US government already allows Show or Display. They allow hardship exemptions. They allow waivers for non-compliance. Its really no big deal. Not something that ICE, DOT, EPA, CARB, and the FBI need to waste time and money on.

I totally agree that it really is no big deal, but if it were done legally we could all just be sitting back enjoying these cars. You can't deny facts when they are right there out in the open regarding Kaizo. It has become a crime with victims because now these owners have to export their cars and may be out a lot of money. You've been in this business I'm sure long enough to know that as much as you want to defend your friends, in your own words, they knew what they were getting themselves into.

[mignuts]

Originally Posted by 2jz1974

just a little example
when ameritech did the bugatti eb110 and mclaren f1,they were branded as ameritech`s.Not bugatti`s or mclarens,as per country of origin.If you want to be technical,the cadillac allante.When pinniferrina built the complete chassis minus the drivetrain for cadillac,and flew them over for GM.then GM installed the drivetrain,nothing different then what kaizo did.The thing is kaizo never set him self up as a manufacture with nhtsa,if he did i dont believe they will be in this mess

Your example of the Allante is wrong because those were brand new chassis built specifically for the Allante sent over by Pininfarina. There is nothing to that prevents a chassis alone to be used for a brand new car if there are special build agreements, and also these chassis were never born as other cars, only Allantes. The EB110 was continued on by German Manufacturer Dauer after they bought the equipment and remaining cars that Bugatti had left over from production, so technically the car wasn't remanufactured, just re-branded with special circumstances involved. The Ameritech F1 was just modified to meet NHTSA safety standards, and was never a remanufactured McLaren F1.

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by mignuts

The Ameritech F1 was just modified to meet NHTSA safety standards, and was never a remanufactured McLaren F1.

Ameritech gave them VIN's. This was actually an issue.

This is why at Motorex at first the NHTSA/OVSC wanted Motorex to get a 17 digit VIN for the GT-R's. Then they decided to use the chassis number as "Substitute for US VIN, See Part 565 "

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=c...65&hl=en&gl=us

[GTR-33]

Originally Posted by mignuts

Your example of the Allante is wrong because those were brand new chassis built specifically for the Allante sent over by Pininfarina.

No YOU are wrong. Whom built the chassis for whatever reason is irrelevant information. It's just a history lesson and has nothing to do with the legality of the issue.

Originally Posted by mignuts

There is nothing to that prevents a chassis alone to be used for a brand new car if there are special build agreements, and also these chassis were never born as other cars, only Allantes.

All of this is irrelevant information and incorrect. For a manufacturer, the law has nothing to do with what factory made it and what they call it. ALL THE LAW CARES ABOUT IS THE END PRODUCT. For a manufacturer, no other information is relevant.

Originally Posted by mignuts

The Ameritech F1 was just modified to meet NHTSA safety standards, and was never a remanufactured McLaren F1.

Incorrect. The Ameritech F1s carry US VIN numbers and are titled as an Ameritech F1.

Now you are by far arguing concepts you don't understand.

[supraman261]

The fact still remains, as far as ive read, unless your Skyline is a motorex car, it aint legal.

[mignuts]

A truck hauling around 4 Skyline's was on the 5 fwy just now. Looks like either Kaizo's batch that got picked up, or another set of cars getting delivered to a holding tank. Must be a nightmare for the owners that are involved.

[tyndago]

So what do people think about this car. At Kaizo when they were raided, and not seized.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3etFKjGiibc

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by mignuts

A truck hauling around 4 Skyline's was on the 5 fwy just now. Looks like either Kaizo's batch that got picked up, or another set of cars getting delivered to a holding tank. Must be a nightmare for the owners that are involved.

Not Kaizo cars. These would be recently imported stuff. I heard from a friend of a friend about a container load of cars with engines that was seized recently at the port. It happens all the time at the port. Lots of stuff gets seized and sold. Some of them are high profile, some of them are never seen or heard from again.

Again, its not illegal to import bodies. Not illegal to import bodies without engines and transmissions. Thats fine in the DOT and EPA's eyes.

[mignuts]

Originally Posted by tyndago

Not Kaizo cars. These would be recently imported stuff. I heard from a friend of a friend about a container load of cars with engines that was seized recently at the port. It happens all the time at the port. Lots of stuff gets seized and sold. Some of them are high profile, some of them are never seen or heard from again.

Again, its not illegal to import bodies. Not illegal to import bodies without engines and transmissions. Thats fine in the DOT and EPA's eyes.

Yes Kaizo cars. Black car was kitted with black wheels, and the red car had dark wheels. Blue car was the movie car, and another car as well.

[GTR-33]

Originally Posted by mignuts

Yes Kaizo cars. Black car was kitted with black wheels, and the red car had dark wheels. Blue car was the movie car, and another car as well.

How do you know they are Kaizo cars? You know the owners of said cars or is this just speculation?

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by mignuts

Yes Kaizo cars. Black car was kitted with black wheels, and the red car had dark wheels. Blue car was the movie car, and another car as well.

So you say it "might have been Kaizos" to ... exact descriptions of the cars ?

You always have some "interesting" and investigative insight mignuts.