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The how to properly degree 2JZ-HKS cams thread!!!!

104K views 72 replies 46 participants last post by  lo bux racer 
#1 · (Edited)
I am creating this thread to try and gain an understanding of whats involved when properly "degreeing" HKS camshafts to our beloved 2JZ-GTE engine. I want to attempt to do this on my engine but I need to have 100% confidence in what I am doing because I have a interference engine I do not want to bend any valves like the last time (long story).

Anyways I have spent the entire evening tonight reading, scanning, and gathering as much information as I can before I attempt this with my motor. I always enjoy learning new things and I think all of us with HKS cams set straight up are losing out on some HP and drive ability.

Here is a copy of the HKS cam cards that I got when I ordered my cams from MVP a week or two ago.

HKS INTAKE CAM CARD:



HKS EXHAUST CAM CARD:




Here is what I gathered from reading this thread and looking at the cam cards.


PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.


Intake valve #1 should be open by 1mm (.039inches)

ATDC (After Top Dead Center)

256: 6deg
264: 2deg
272: -2deg - this seems like its BTDC?
280: -7deg - this seems like its BTDC?

Exhaust valve #1 should be open by 1mm (.039inches)

BBDC (Before Bottom Dead Center)

256: 41deg
264: 46deg
272: 50deg
280: 55deg

Since our motors turn clock wise this is what the degree wheel should look like.



If you have any real world experience or know for a fact that what I am posting is correct and true please post up. I do not want anyone to attempt to degree there cams unless they have 100% confidence in there ability to do so.

Thanks,
Bob
 
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#4 ·
Ok I went out to the garage and must have rotated the crank about 10x trying to understand what the cam card was stating and I have got it figured out now. I ordered comp cams #4796 universal cam degree kit and I am going to degree the cams in hopefully tuesday night if summit ship it like they normally do. I will post up some pictures of my procces so others can understand hopefully.

Bob
 
#5 · (Edited)
Bob,

I know this may be asking much of you, but is there any possible way to dyno the car BEFORE degreeing the cams (just putting them in like most people do), then doing another dyno run AFTER degreeing them? I have heard from both sides of the argument..it makes no extra power, or it does. This would be a fine way to see if the extra effort of degreeing yields any tangible benefits. I don't think anyone here has done a before/after test with regards to degreeing. I'd be willing to chip in a few bucks to offset the dyno cost. Maybe if enough people chip in to defray cost it might be easier to justify for you?
 
#7 · (Edited)
You know that is ONE HELL OF AN IDEA!!!

I figure once I know how far to advance or retard either cam from using the degree wheel it will be easy for me to go to the dyno here with the cams straight up and then make a pull. After that I will set them to the proper marks then make another pull. I have no issue in doing that and I would like to know also. My main concern with the degreeing cams is hopefully gain some drive ability. My junker should make some good power regardless.

Bob
 
#10 ·
Ok I just created some word documents using the degree wheel to show just when the valve timing events should be happening with my HKS 280 cams. I am going to use these as a guide to degree the cams when the degree kit shows up on Tuesday. It seems logical to me that the cams should not have to be moved all that much because I know that there is only 10 degrees of cam shaft adjustment either way, and from eyeballing the #1 intake valve it does not appear I am going to need to move the cams to awful far.

1. Install timing belt on motor with cams and crank both on #1 TDC, pull the tensioner pin.

2. Install pointer to a bolt on the block and then install the degree wheel on the crankshaft.

3. Find true TDC by turning the crank back and forth to get in the middle of the dwell factor at TDC.

4. Install the dial indicator on the #1 intake valve shim, set the indicator to zero with valve all the way closed.

5. Rotate the crank around to -7deg ATDC and then loosen the lock nuts on the intake cam gear and rotate the cam so the lift gauge is showing .039 inches of lift or 1mm. Lock the cam gear down.

6. Rotate the crank 360 degrees while watching the dial indicator the valve lift should correspond to exactly.

7. Move the dial indicator to #1 exhaust valve shim and zero it out with the valve all the way closed.

8. Rotate the crank shaft again to get it to 55deg BBDC.

9. Unlock exhaust cam gear and move cam until the dial indicator is showing .039 or 1mm of lift on the #1 exhaust valve.

10. Rotate the crank 360 degrees while watching the dial indicator and the valve lift should correspond to exactly to the sheet I posted below.

Here is what the valve events should be using HKS 280 cams in a 2JZGTE engine.

INTAKE:



EXHAUST:

 
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#11 ·
Great news...I suspect the degreeing won't yield too much HP, but as you stated driveability....or beyond that shift the curve somewhat. Hopefully a dyno curve will show this. Please let me know if you want me to kick in some $$ for dyno....
 
#13 ·
honestly, youre not going to pick up a tremendous amount of power doing this, as a matter of fact its possible you may loose power in some areas. the idea behind degreeing the cam is to get the cam operating in the manner the manufacturer designed it to operate at. for most people this is not worth the time spent, for the perfectionists it is.
 
#14 ·
I am not looking for more power, I am looking for better drive ability to be honest!!

Bob
 
#16 · (Edited)
#17 ·
Gad -

Look again at the cam cards I posted, in my mind it should be like this---->

Intake valve #1 should be open by 1mm (.039inches) at:

256: 6deg ATDC
264: 2deg ATDC
272: 2deg BTDC
280: 7deg BTDC

Exhaust valve #1 should be open by 1mm (.039inches) at:

256: 41deg BBDC
264: 46deg BBDC
272: 50deg BBDC
280: 55deg BBDC

Should I be degreeing my cams to when the valve shim reaches 1mm of lift or to when it reaches max lift? ONce I have it set they should sync up anyways. Let me know what you think and I will be attaching a dial indicator tonight as one of my techs let me borrow one today so all I will have to do is attach the degree wheel to my balancer and find true TDC. I am going to use the piston stop to find true TDC.

Bob
 
#18 ·
I recently attempted to do this, but getting my dial indicator to work around the cam lobes was almost impossible. I did verify that both cams were close, its hard to get an exact reading of .039" of lift based on the angle of the dial indicator reading.
 
#19 ·
OMG dude you are not kidding. I spent the last two hours trying get the dial indicator setup properly and there is no way in hell you can get it even close to the valve shim because the cam is in the way. I had to take an Allen wrench and cut it down and use it as a bridge between the dial indicator and the shim. The angle is close but I was able to tell that its giving me a .005 error, I found out the how much the angle is throwing off total lift because it should have a total lift of .366 inches and its only lifting to about .361 on the dial indicator. I reapeted this reading several times so I am only going to be degreeing the intake cam to about .034 instead of .039 and I am sure that I am going to have to do the same to exhaust side when I go to dial it in.

I know I am probably being to anal about all of this but I am super curious on what affect properly degreeing the cams is going to have on the car versus just running them striaght up. I will be sure to post my experiences as they unfold so everyone can gain something from all this pain in the ass stuff.

Here are some pics from tonight!





 
#20 ·
Nice job fabbing up something to get down in there!!! Does your mag base stick well to that cover, mine was flaky at best. I'm pretty sure someone could come up with a bolt on base and that could get a much better angle.

I spent hours on the web looking up how other people have done this, and came to the conclusion that most just don't.

Keep us updated on your results. I am curious how far things are off.

Awesome job, pretty sure this is a supraforums first!! This is way I love the forums!!!
 
#22 ·
Thanks dude!!

I have put a lot of effort into this, the brown clown has just brought my comp cams cam degreeing kit and I will hope to have the cams dialed in this evening and if its not to late it should be running tonight maybe. I am very paticular about things being "right" when it comes to my Supra so after doing some reading it seems most important to have the cams degreed especially if the block or head has been milled at all.

Bob
 
#23 ·
I have some attachments for dial indicator that are .02"-.04" in diameter. Would that fit in there, Bob?
 
#24 ·
Probably so but the issue that you are dealing with is that if you are not 100% paralell (sp) to the valve shim the lift readings will be slightly off. It appears that the slightly miss angled dial indicator is throwing of the total valve lift by .005 to the low side so I will be setting the intake cam to .034inches at 7deg BTDC when I am degreeing it. I know I will be dead on if I see the intake valve hitting at max lift .361inches @ 113deg ATDC.

I am still debating in my head whether its going to be easier to degree the cams off the max lift position or off the .034 of opening position. I am sure this is going to take me more then a few minutes to get it right.

Bob
 
#26 ·
^^^^I agree to an certain extent. But HKS is a big time R&D shop, and surely there's a good reason why they provide these cards. Not for power, but likely power curve and driveability...
 
#27 ·
Well I had a big post made with pics and everything then my house lost power :nono:

Anyways my cams are degreed in now and I will post the details sometime tomorrow morning, I am to hammered right now to do anything.

Bob
 
#28 ·
I have detailed what I have done in this thread to make myself more aware of what is happening inside my engine and to help others should they feel the need to do this themselves. I felt it was important to get my cams dialed in better because the when this motor was "built" I was told by the previous owner that my head was milled and that the block my have been decked also, with those two factors in mind combined with my perception that the car was not pulling the vacum it should I had to be sure my cam timing was as close to specs as I could get it. Whether or not degreeing my cams will make the car more drivable or make more power on back-to-back dyno pulls remains to be seen.

I did start the car and let it run for a minute or two this morning before I left for work and I can see that it is pulling almost -1.5psi more vacum then it was before when it was dead cold and idling about 1250 or so. The idle was a lot smoother then it was previously so I feel I am headed in the right direction. I did spend about an hour last night on each cam when degreeing it in, there was no way in hell to get the dial indicator perfectly parallel to the valve shim so I had to make some small adjustments to the actual lift I was trying to obtain at the specific times according to the cam card. In the end my max lift #'s and the amount of lift I am getting at the specific time is as close to the cam card as I could get it.

Here are some observations I made last night, those of you with HKS 280's DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CAMS TO THE PICS ALONE. You need to remember that this procedure will give slightly different results depending on the ecxact combination your running.

1. True top dead center on my engine DOES not line up perfectly to the mark on boost logic balancer. When I am at true TDC my balancer appears to 1-2 degree before top dead center. Here is a pic so you can see what I mean, I painted the TDC mark on the balancer red.



2. The intake cam needed to be retarded just a hair over 1 degree.



3. The exhaust cam needed to be advanced to a hair just before 2 degrees.



This took a good bit of time and it was a lot of work. Once I get the tune set I will get it on the dyno and make a few pulls them set the cams straight up and make another with making no other changes. I will update the thread when I do so.

Bob
 
#32 ·
Car is put back together and is running great now!!

It is pulling about 9-10inches of vacum or -5 to -5.5 or so psi on my AEM and is idling at 1000rpms with any air fuel I wish. It sounds mean as hell idling at 15.0 AFR LOL. I am glad I went thru all this work now. I still have to change the oil and then get my timing light out to verify my ignition timing is on the money to what the AEM says then I will start the closed loop / vacum street tuning in the next couple of days then its dyno time and WOT tuning.

I will post the video of the car running as soon as my little one decided its bed time!!

Bob
 
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