More E85 questions on power levels ect...

[spooledup]

Ive been running E85 for a while now and I have some questions. First off here is what I got.

74GTS turbo
1000cc precision injectors
2 stock pumps
stock feed, stock return, additional -6 feed.
HKS VPC/GCC
G-force ECU
272 cams

I had been running about 20 psi and made 612 actual whp and that is when the car started to lean out. Well a couple days ago I put in the G-force ECU and now that I have an extra 1000 rpm I started getting boost creep (I need to get my wastegate piping done better) and I cant keep it down below 22 psi. So now if goes lean and I cannot make a full pull.

After reading and talking to some friends I was told that my fuel system should be good for about 700 actual whp. Why am I going to lean at only 612 whp then? I thought I had a pump going out but If I disconnect one at a time it seems to run the same. Is there any way to check the pumps to see if one could be weaker than normal? Or could it be that these people are making the extra whp on more aggressive timing (mine is stock timing)? Also I am up in the mountains like 5500 feet with the DA around the 7500 foot area.

I am planning on getting bigger injectors here soon. I figure if I only run E85 I could get away with 1200cc easy with the VPC/GCC, maybe even bigger. Does anybody make 1400cc injectors?

Thanks

Cisco

[D'Bollocks]

I am running twin walboros, and 1200cc injectors on a Borg 76mm turbo with Megasquirt ecu. I am also running a 50/50 water/meth direct port injection system which helps extend my fuel system,but probably not that much. I made 710 SAE @ 27.1psi on a Dynomite Land and Sea Dyno....which is comparable to to a Mustang Dyno.

On tune creeping up to that boost level we were around 65-67% duty cycle on the injectors, and that put us right around 11.8-12.0 AFR. As I stepped above 26psi we noticed AFR's were dropping out into the 12.4-12.5 range even though we had increased duty cycle all the way out to 80%! Needless to say I am out of fuel pump, but my point is that with the high flow of twin denso's I cant see why you would be out of fuel pump at 612whp no matter what dyno you are on. A pump going bad typically doesn't "somewhat" work...they usually just stop working as the windings make contact and short out.

Sounds like your issue is more tuning related, which unfortunately you dont have any true control of with the VPC/GCC type setup. You are accessing load points in the ECM, without knowing where in the MAP you are. Are your egt's out of control? Is it possible your WB is going bad?

[spooledup]

Thanks for the reply. I think I am out of fuel injector. I am looking at trying out some 1200cc here soon. I am going to put some race gas in and see how the car acts with less demanding fuel on the 1000s first.

[D'Bollocks]

Sorry, I didnt notice you had posted your injector size. A 1000 should be able to get you out to the 700rwhp rage on E85...however I dont know what AFR you are tuning for, and honestly have no idea the magnitude of elevation effects on fueling.

Good luck getting it sorted!

[Bad SP79R]

Don't bother with the 1200 cc injectors because they arent big enough. Get the 1600's and you'll get what youre looking for. 35psi+ without signs of knock.

[717Motoring]

I'm thinking it may be a lack of tuning control as I was looking at 1200's and the general understanding was that they should be good for around 850whp.

[93 twintrbo]

I am running 1000cc injectors and Twin walbro pumps and an Aem ems. I am able to get 28.5psi on a 76gts. I run E-85+meth injection. Injector duty is around 90%

[Sins4u33]

on 1000cc injectors on a 76 i made about 730 @ 25psi and i was out of fuel (near 98% duty cycle)

Bluemax makes 1400cc injectors, they are actually pretty good injectors, the 1600's aren't that great, they have these fuzzy spots and can be very difficult to tune with at lower pulse widths, they just don't like to response.

Ive heard some interesting things about the ID injectors but i have also heard VERY bad things about them, if you want a set of 1600's you can have the set that's in my car, as i have been thinking of replacing my injectors for the longest time now. Just remember whatever injector you do go with because you run e85 all the time, it is recommended you run some 93 pump gas thru your injectors to clean them up every once in awhile. The injectors tips actually get clogged up at the ends and it will affect your spray pattern's.

My friend and i pulled his intake manifold off his eclipse (4g63) and he has been running e85 for months, id say at least 50+ gallons have been run thru it and he's been making upwards of 600-700awhp with that fuel. His intake manifold had this corn smell and this thick layer of film built up inside of it. But anyways im rambling, hope this helps with your question.

Ben Y

[717Motoring]

So with twin denso's and 1200's will I be able to reach 800whp or should I just get 1600's and run a lower duty cycle? I'm also going to run a progressive meth kit for the track and just for safety margin.

[spooledup]

I wish I better understood how the elevation affects it. I know when I drive down the Houston for the Supra meet I have to take out a lot of fuel. I always thought it seemed wrong because Houston has more air then here in the mountains so I thought I would need more fuel to compensate. I need a Pro EFI but at this time its out of the question due to cash.

[717Motoring]

Are the 1600's from everyone hard to tune due to size or is it just certain brands? I was planning on running RC's which I've never had a tuning issue with. I've also never ran E85 or an injector that big though.

[Sins4u33]

Originally Posted by spooledup

I wish I better understood how the elevation affects it. I know when I drive down the Houston for the Supra meet I have to take out a lot of fuel. I always thought it seemed wrong because Houston has more air then here in the mountains so I thought I would need more fuel to compensate. I need a Pro EFI but at this time its out of the question due to cash.

no no no no, don't blame it on your ems...jumping to that is one thing, i am not one to poke fingers, but from what i have seen with the proefi its an EMS that lets you tune your car to a certain extent...jason has physically locked timing in certain spots and the ems wont let you go past xx timing marks...i would prefer an ECU you can tune if you know what i mean? seems like my friend matt has been having a hell of a problem with his proefi. I was there to say i told you so.

Ben Y

[Sins4u33]

Originally Posted by 717Motoring

Are the 1600's from everyone hard to tune due to size or is it just certain brands? I was planning on running RC's which I've never had a tuning issue with. I've also never ran E85 or an injector that big though.

The 1600's are not difficult to tune with on e85 if you simply have a base map from 93 with the 1600's then all you need to do is literally take the whole map and add about 30% more fuel everywhere. These injectors on e85 are actually not that bad, since you are using more pulse width at idle and during low load situations, than you would use with pump gas or c16.

[D'Bollocks]

I've heard too many negative reviews on 1600's, both here and on the rx7 forums. As I exceed my current 1200's I will be looking to add a second rail configuration and run an additional set of 1000's.

Sns4u33- I've heard about the film build up...I am tearing down my motor soon for a rebuild so I will definitely be watching for this and will report back what I find. I do know though, that when I pull my plugs they are stark white. Looks like it burns damn clean in the combustion chamber at least. I also noticed that as the car warms up, the car runs much better....which we are attributing to better vaporization effect of the fuel itself. Is it possible the film you have found is a result of running huge injectors that are a "sloppy" on low pulse cycles and the fuel is actually not making it into the chamber and the additivie residues are baking on the manifold as it warms up and the alcohol has evaporated away? Also what dyno were you on, and what type of timing are you running? I bumped up to 19 deg after torque peak at 26psi and my egt's dropped about 30C. On an all out run 2-5th my egt's in manifold are 850C max.

[Sins4u33]

Originally Posted by D'Bollocks

I've heard too many negative reviews on 1600's, both here and on the rx7 forums. As I exceed my current 1200's I will be looking to add a second rail configuration and run an additional set of 1000's.

Sns4u33- I've heard about the film build up...I am tearing down my motor soon for a rebuild so I will definitely be watching for this and will report back what I find. I do know though, that when I pull my plugs they are stark white. Looks like it burns damn clean in the combustion chamber at least. I also noticed that as the car warms up, the car runs much better....which we are attributing to better vaporization effect of the fuel itself. Is it possible the film you have found is a result of running huge injectors that are a "sloppy" on low pulse cycles and the fuel is actually not making it into the chamber and the additivie residues are baking on the manifold as it warms up and the alcohol has evaporated away? Also what dyno were you on, and what type of timing are you running? I bumped up to 19 deg after torque peak at 26psi and my egt's dropped about 30C. On an all out run 2-5th my egt's in manifold are 850C max.

The 1600 do have up sides and downsides, but if u can tune around it, they can work fairly well. My friend is using the bluemax 1450's i beleive in his 4g63, car runs great, no misfire on part throttle wasn't sloppy at all, and the car mainly stayed in wot during most of these pulls. That's the only reason i can think of the film/accumulation of the e85 in the intake manifold and he was running over 35psi thru it so the fuel was coming hard and fast, the car was def no slouch on this fuel :-p

I have seen the e85 eat thru basic braided line, it started to leak around the fitting, not a big deal though just replaced the line and kept going. The e85 def burns clean, e85 can be hard to start cold, as you know you have to crank the initial pulse width on start. 1600's are very sloppy like u said tho under low pulse cycles the injector is hard to tune for. But once i threw in some more fuel at idle these injectors woke up and drove fine, 1600's on e85 are not bad at all imho. I was on a dynojet. i have seen tho you can run more boost with the e85, but i dont like to test the timing limits with it, even tho the fuel is only consider what a 105 octane...its acting like a 116, it shows no knock, the fuel is very cold. I like to stick around 17-18 max.

def interesting, most people haven't dabled with this fuel, only 1 person on sf.com i know is running e98 (dave-h) and i spoke to him for hours about the fuel. I just wish i could get some down the street from my house and try it out. Instead i would have to travel maybe 3-4hrs just go pick it up. There are too many variants of e98 tho, some guys mix with race fuel, some guys still mix with 87...id prefer the race fuel one if i were to go this route.

Ben Y

[QSMKIV]

My old set up I had precision 1000's and was going to go with 1600's but John Reed and Mike Angel talked me into the new Bosch saturated 1000's and they work great. I also upgraded to a triple pump set up with my new built 3.0. So far the driveablilty and power has been great. It made 801 rwhp on e85 on wastegate @ 25 lbs. I can't wait to turn it up when she's broken in a little more. My setup is a 74 gts, vpro, 272's, vwr race head, etc...

[717Motoring]

What is the difference between the bosch satuarated injectors and the RC's? 800whp on 1000's is very impressive.

[spooledup]

I got some 1200cc injectors on the way. Ill let you know how they work. I would go bigger but I'm still on a VPC/GCC.

[cp44]

Im running e85 on 1450cc injectors with dual densos and a pte 6765 billet , Im getting a retune this week and Ill let you know the results

[QSMKIV]

Originally Posted by 717Motoring

What is the difference between the bosch satuarated injectors and the RC's? 800whp on 1000's is very impressive.

The Bosch injectors are high impedence and will flow almost 1600 cc @ 100 psi but have driveability of 1000's. My base pressure is only 50 psi so I am only pushing about 75 psi at this point.

[grandporschegt]

ok all you guys running "e-85" are you tuning it on a true e85 blend fuel?????? almost every state has a spring/early summer blend (e-78) and a fall/spring blend (e-70) and this will be at the same pump that is labled e-85. i would like to know what guys are tuning on?? e70/78/85
here is a list of the blends for your state http://www.e85mustangs.com/regions123.html

[D'Bollocks]

Originally Posted by grandporschegt

ok all you guys running "e-85" are you tuning it on a true e85 blend fuel?????? almost every state has a spring/early summer blend (e-78) and a fall/spring blend (e-70) and this will be at the same pump that is labled e-85. i would like to know what guys are tuning on?? e70/78/85
here is a list of the blends for your state http://www.e85mustangs.com/regions123.html

As they switch to winter blend, which they have here in upstate NY, you'll notice the car starts running a little richer. You just do global fuel adjustment to compensate, it is not much.

[D'Bollocks]

For people running the Bosch saturated injectors and high base pressures, just curious what fuel pumps you are using? The increased fuel pressure will ultimately lower the total flow output on the pumps, so they still become an issue. Also it would be helpful to know what dyno everyone is using that is quoting results, so that w can make some correlation between output and fuel setups.

[blackdude]

bosch 044 pumps are good for high base pressure

[grandporschegt]

Originally Posted by D'Bollocks

As they switch to winter blend, which they have here in upstate NY, you'll notice the car starts running a little richer. You just do global fuel adjustment to compensate, it is not much.

sorry for the noobness here but whats global fuel adjustment??? i am guessing you mean base psi fuel adjustment?