The Infamous RPS Carbon/Carbon Triple Issue - Page 2

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Thread: The Infamous RPS Carbon/Carbon Triple Issue

  1. #26
    SupraForums Member daviddi92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    Well add me to the list of people who can't get it to disengage completely. I don't know what I'm doing wrong here or what I've done incorrectly.

    My issue is a bit more insidious. It begins by idling completely silent. Then as everything gets hot the clutch chatters like crazy, even with the same idle RPM. And the pedal cannot seem to disengage the clutch and then cannot get it into gear without a lot of effort. I hope a resolution can be found to this. I've contact RPS and RSP (lol) and hopefully between the two of them it'll get sorted out. I'm praying the chatter and disengagement issue will get resolved because when it's silent is absolutely silent and drives similar to OEM force and slip. Unfortunately when it doesn't: it doesn't. It's loud and won't disengage. The two seem to be together.

    I do have a braided line on the master to the slave and I'm wonder if it might be catching an air pocket at the top or at the slave.

    Does anyone know what size power bleeder attachment I can use to try forcing the bubbles out? I am thinking the chattering is coming from a lack of slave cylinder rod pressure on the fork, and that is also causing it to not get quite enough throw.

    I adjusted the pedal height and pedal play per the Toyota TSRM and that seemed to help a bunch, as did bleeding the slave cylinder again.

    I even wonder if doing a 1mm longer slave rod would fix this. Shoot, I'd be willing to give it a try!!! This clutch is incredible when it's acting right. But my issue began only 1 mile into the first drive, not 500 like the OP.

    Back in the DSM days with heavy ACT single disk clutches, we would extend the slave rod about an 1/8 to 1/4" in order to alleviate the clutch grab and disengaging issue.

    I have the newly redesigned RPS C/C Twin that I installed about 2 months ago and have no issues of it not disengaging. Is this only a triple disk issue? I did lap the input shaft as well, and it grabs towards the top of the pedal travel like previous have mentioned.
    94' Single Turbo 6 Speed

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  3. #27
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Is yours virtually quiet when idling? Mine is only when cold. Once fully warmed up its stupid loud, like an OSG, and won't disengage. It doesn't matter what RPM I set it to.

    Is your twin noisy hot or cold at idle?
    The Original MKIV Supra Owners Group
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    95 Supra GTE/V160 - Gutted+Caged Road Racing Beast - 6766, Veilside exh, V2, Spec Twin, 044s, fuel cell, fire suppression, cust susp, CCW 17x10.5x11.5, Ivan's build



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  4. #28
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Alright. This is a rather alarming installation error on my part.

    The flywheel was not fully seated!! That was my fault. That caused failure to disengage due to lack of throw, and also created the insane noise I experienced. I'm super lucky that the crank hub isn't scored. There's a light mark on the flywheel but not deep enough to make it not seat. So I'm going to put it back on and make SURE it's fully seated this time.

    Also the #5 floater fingers were catching on the pressure plate randomly. This is because on some slots of the flywheel/cover it wasn't perfectly flush. You can catch you finger on it. I followed Rob's suggestion to remove the burrs from the fingers and honestly I went a step further and removed the hard 90° 0.2mm lip on the pressure plate to the flywheel surfaces. This explains why I was getting random, extremely heavy pedal pressure: because a part of the floater would hang on it and again not allow disengagement.

    I sent a suggestion to RSP and RPS (lol) to maybe make the #5 fingers where they sit inside of the plate and flywheel to be 2mm thicker on each side so that during engagement and disengagement the fingers are always on both flywheel and pressure plate surfaces and will move more freely and not have an edge to hang on.

    What would really fix the problem would be if RPS were to machine the pressure plate before sending it out to match the flywheel surface. Because of what looks like powder coating or anodizing whatever it is, it's causing a small lip and imperfection for the finger to not float freely across the two surfaces. Ironically the defect is only towards the pressure plate so it's only on disengagement.

    I had to pull the trans to go over all of this and will be uploading some videos regarding it.

    1 for me for being stupid and not ensuring the flywheel seated fully
    1 for RPS for not quite getting the coating level even to the point where it causes hang up of the #5 floater disk.

    I want to first say that Rob at RPS and Jay at RSP have been extremely helpful in what to look for and what might be wrong and how to try to find each issue and resolve them.

    Attached is an example, I think of what I'm referring to. You can see where the finger rubbed and hung on the pressure plate. I'm uploading from my phone so these may not be the correct photos.

    20190208_132431.jpg20190208_132507.jpg

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  6. #29
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    *****SOLVED*****

    If you have partial disengagement issues with this clutch it is a simple fix. Check my post above, and watch this video that I've made and sent to Jay for future updates to the clutch. It's an evolution for a reason. The fingers get caught on the pressure plate. So remove any imperfections you may see. Take the pressure plate and flywheel with zero disks in them and try wobbling the plate clockwise and counter clockwise. The dowels do a good job but it isn't fool proof. Remove any lip that is present on the pressure plate side of the interface and simply remove the 90° 0.001mm edge and make it a 45°. My clutch shifts like butter and disengages fully. You can check this while it's in the car and may even be able to fix the ridge with the trans in but it's SO much easier out of the car.

    A huge thank you goes to Jay at RSP for giving me the thought to check my flywheel to crank. The flywheel was loose and differing heat caused it to vibrate and shake violently. USER INSTALLATION ERROR. LoL I didn't fully seat it and this caused me to need to remove the trans again. Use an oven and bake the flywheel before installing. Holy cow.

    I really hope this helps fellas.


  7. #30
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Here is why you DO want this clutch. 1400ftlb rating, lighter than OEM pedal, easy as crap to slip, stock like drivability.

    QUIET AT IDLE.


  8. #31
    Boost Junkie 1A1's Avatar
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    Glad you got it figured out. DO you have a youtube channel? I plan to eventually upgrade to the clutch from my twin carbon at some point since my clutch is 14 years old. I definitely want to keep this in mind as a preinstall process. Thanks for posting this information up.

    Nevermind-found it.

    Steve


    1993.5 Anthracite 6 SPD//PRO EFI//PTE6766//3-Row//E-85Fuel Sys//PHR I/M//GSC//IP 10/1 motor//Manley//RPS C/C//CCW C14//Brembo BBK//TRD LSD//930WHP/38PSI
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  9. #32
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Steve what do you have that has lasted you 14 years? What kind of mileage?

  10. #33
    SupraForums Member daviddi92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    Is yours virtually quiet when idling? Mine is only when cold. Once fully warmed up its stupid loud, like an OSG, and won't disengage. It doesn't matter what RPM I set it to.

    Is your twin noisy hot or cold at idle?

    My twin is quiet only when cold. As soon as its fully warm its pretty loud unless I push the clutch pedal in. I haven't tried raising the idle once fully warm to see if that helps or not. I believe my idle is somewhere around 1050 or so.
    But I also don't have any problems disengaging the clutch.

    What part do you think solved quieting down your clutch?

  11. #34
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Flywheel not being fully seated absolutely caused the noise. I was missing about 1.5-2mm of throw because the flywheel was not bottomed out fully. It was jiggling on the crank which is super sketchy lol oops.

    The chatter you hear at idle once the transmission is warm is the trans fluid warming up. If you can get your idle to smooth out further it'll help reduce it as well as increase idle a few more RPM, if necessary. I'm not home today but I'll be messing with this specifically once I get home. I played with my idle setting in the Infinity and you can definitely hear the smoothness of idle affect the chatter. More or less IACV and inverse ignition will quiet it down. I can't recall which way reduced it, but I'll play with it some more tomorrow.
    Last edited by TheProPilot; 02-11-2019 at 11:04 AM.

  12. #35
    SupraForums Member daviddi92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    Flywheel not being fully seated absolutely caused the noise. I was missing about 1.5-2mm of throw because the flywheel was not bottomed out fully. It was jiggling on the crank which is super sketchy lol oops.

    The chatter you hear at idle once the transmission is warm is the trans fluid warming up. If you can get your idle to smooth out further it'll help reduce it as well as increase idle a few more RPM, if necessary. I'm not home today but I'll be messing with this specifically once I get home. I played with my idle setting in the Infinity and you can definitely hear the smoothness of idle affect the chatter. More or less IACV and inverse ignition will quiet it down. I can't recall which way reduced it, but I'll play with it some more tomorrow.
    Okay cool. My car isn't fully tuned since its winter now after changing a lot of things this winter. Im sure once it is, it will quiet down and smooth out.

  13. #36
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Awesome! To be fair: I'm sure it'll make some noise at idle, but I'm hoping some tinkering will help it be reduced or eliminated once the V160 fluid warms up.

  14. #37
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    Thanks buddy! It's too bad an adjustment can't be made to have the clutch begin to engage at the bottom, where it belongs. Is anyone familiar with a slave or clutch setup that might allow this? Having the clutch engage at the top gives so much less reference point to go by before it bites. Having the engagement at the bottom or near it helps have a reference of "ok just let off and in a few more moments I should feel grab... There it is"

    How much harder is it to drive with rhe engagement so high? It seems so counterintuitive to have it so high.

    I really appreciate you chiming in and following up with us.
    Hey sorry I havent been on in a while. The car does drive much better. Not 100% used to the engagement height but im working with it. Ive only had one hiccup since where the shifter had to be muscled out of gear and that was during that week of Cold weather. Not sure if that contributes to it or not. Glad you've got everything sorted out. I will have to drop my trans and check the clearance between the plates and fingers to see if i find any grooves.
    Last edited by SupraMan36; 02-12-2019 at 12:49 PM.

  15. #38
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Honestly man you can do it with the inspection covers off. There's space with floater/plate #5 to the contact points. But the Right way would be to simply have someone turn the motor wkth the crank pulley and get under and check each side of each and every slot. If there's a rough edge: see if it can be smoothed with a Dremel. I only had to take a few hundredths off. If it's too tight to really get in there properly: yeah it's gotta come out. We did it for the flywheel. And I'm glad I spent the half hour clearancing it.

  16. #39
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    I just got off of the phone with Rob and he said he's talking to his guys about this issue and what I found. I hope this helps everyone in the future and now. It was my main issue in terms of engagement was the fingers catching. It's pure butter now.

  17. #40
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    I am beyond frustrated. Heavy vibrations are back and disengagement issue concurrent with it. Talking to Jay at RSP and Rob and RJ at RPS. Hopefully this gets resolved. But its sounding like it needs to get sent back to them. AKA remove trans a 3rd time. :'(
    Last edited by TheProPilot; 02-14-2019 at 06:34 AM.

  18. #41
    Boost Junkie 1A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    Steve what do you have that has lasted you 14 years? What kind of mileage?
    RPS twin carbon from 2005. I have 30K miles on it as the past few years I haven't driven the car much. Car has made between 500whp to 930whp during that time. Still drives like stock. I plan to keep it in as long as I can.


    Steve

  19. #42
    Boost Junkie 1A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    I am beyond frustrated. Heavy vibrations are back and disengagement issue concurrent with it. Talking to Jay at RSP and Rob and RJ at RPS. Hopefully this gets resolved. But its sounding like it needs to get sent back to them. AKA remove trans a 3rd time. :'(
    Man, sorry to hear that. Pulling the trans sucks, especially without a lift. I hope they are able to get this corrected for you.

    STeve

  20. #43
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    I took the car to the TRC Street Kings event and bumped into Jay, who had been working with me directly prior to this. He drove it and everything is normal. I did have a disengagement issue arriving there. But it didn't happen with Jay. He suggested to drive it and get some miles on it. So that's what I'm going to do. Hopefully I don't cause any issues with the synchros by forcing it into gear over time. To be honest: I'm over taking my trans out. If the trans comes out this clutch won't be going back in.

    He did suggest that possibly I could be experiencing a disk to spline issue and didn't lap the splines sufficiently.

    If you get this clutch: mark the spline with the "reference" spline. So that when you lap the disks to it and clean everything off then grease them you can put them back into the same spline that was lapped with the disk.

    You'll see what I mean. I didn't do this, just something I've been contemplating. That's about the only thing I can think of that would be causing this now.

  21. #44
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    Makes sense. Thanks for sharing your experience. I wouldn't force it into gear. It will wear your synchros prematurely.


    Steve

  22. #45
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Don't really have a choice when you're parking your car.

  23. #46
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    I took the car to the TRC Street Kings event and bumped into Jay, who had been working with me directly prior to this. He drove it and everything is normal. I did have a disengagement issue arriving there. But it didn't happen with Jay. He suggested to drive it and get some miles on it. So that's what I'm going to do. Hopefully I don't cause any issues with the synchros by forcing it into gear over time. To be honest: I'm over taking my trans out. If the trans comes out this clutch won't be going back in.

    He did suggest that possibly I could be experiencing a disk to spline issue and didn't lap the splines sufficiently.

    If you get this clutch: mark the spline with the "reference" spline. So that when you lap the disks to it and clean everything off then grease them you can put them back into the same spline that was lapped with the disk.

    You'll see what I mean. I didn't do this, just something I've been contemplating. That's about the only thing I can think of that would be causing this now.
    Hey man, Any updates on this ? whenever this issue does show its face again, I've gotten acustomed to just going to 4th gear first before any other gears to get this thing in smoothly. Was hoping RPS would have chimed in by now and gave you some info. I still got nothing out of them. Jay did tell me the same thing as well about lapping the splines.

  24. #47
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Rob at RPS asked if the pilot bearing is definitely good. Then Jay asked. I mean I suppose it's possible but I checked it and it spins really freely. It's maybe possible I didn't bury it deep enough into the crank. I think if anything that's part of it.

    Whatever it is: it EXCLUSIVELY happens when hot. That's making it really difficult to tell if it's back or gone forever. I have about 500 miles on it now and it's doing it less and less. I do my best to slip the ever living **** out of it to make sure the disks have clearance by minutely wearing them down. If it's a few hundredths off that's all it needs for hot carbon to grab and do this. But personally I'm convinced it's the spline lapping vs disk issue. I am fairly confident it was me lapping at one orientation and then installing them on another. When it comes out again I'll change the pilot bearing and lap the splines and mark it to retain the orientation. Plus I did 90% of the lapping about 1" too far down the shaft. So. It's possible I lapped the wrong section of the spline. You really only need to lap the first 2" or so of the spline. Not further down.

    I'm frustrated. But when it is driving correctly it's freaking brilliant. And 99% of the time it's perfect. It's only when there's a good amount of heat in the trans that it doesn't release completely.

    If I let it just idle and the engine get full hot it doesn't do this. So I don't think the pilot bearing is the issue. It only happens once decent power has been applied through the trans in high ambient heat.

  25. #48
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    Rob at RPS asked if the pilot bearing is definitely good. Then Jay asked. I mean I suppose it's possible but I checked it and it spins really freely. It's maybe possible I didn't bury it deep enough into the crank. I think if anything that's part of it.

    Whatever it is: it EXCLUSIVELY happens when hot. That's making it really difficult to tell if it's back or gone forever. I have about 500 miles on it now and it's doing it less and less. I do my best to slip the ever living **** out of it to make sure the disks have clearance by minutely wearing them down. If it's a few hundredths off that's all it needs for hot carbon to grab and do this. But personally I'm convinced it's the spline lapping vs disk issue. I am fairly confident it was me lapping at one orientation and then installing them on another. When it comes out again I'll change the pilot bearing and lap the splines and mark it to retain the orientation. Plus I did 90% of the lapping about 1" too far down the shaft. So. It's possible I lapped the wrong section of the spline. You really only need to lap the first 2" or so of the spline. Not further down.

    I'm frustrated. But when it is driving correctly it's freaking brilliant. And 99% of the time it's perfect. It's only when there's a good amount of heat in the trans that it doesn't release completely.

    If I let it just idle and the engine get full hot it doesn't do this. So I don't think the pilot bearing is the issue. It only happens once decent power has been applied through the trans in high ambient heat.
    It honestly makes me want to go back to my OEM master cylinder. My pilot bearing was oem new at point of Install. So I doubt as well.

    Does your engagement point also slightly change once warmed up also ?



    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  26. #49
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Yes the engagement point and feel of the engagement itself does move because I can move the car without releasing the clutch from the drag, but only randomly, and only when hot and at an intersection lol

  27. #50
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    I officially give up on this clutch, waste of time and money trying to correct a 3k investment for your 6k plus v160.

    Went to change my fluid and found metal shavings all in my fluid. This Being my Second fluid change I know the only thing altered was the clutch assembly.

    Super frustrating and I'm surprised real street is behind this clutch as much as they are. It makes me wonder if this is why Titan removed this clutch off their website.

    Guys If you own this clutch and have a few thousand miles on it. Check your trans oil to make sure your not setting yourself up for failure.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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