The Infamous RPS Carbon/Carbon Triple Issue - Page 3

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Thread: The Infamous RPS Carbon/Carbon Triple Issue

  1. #51
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    My update was ironically coming today. And is exactly the opposite experience. Jay suggest to drive it. I did so. I even did an AutoX with it. Couple hard launches were done and in high heat etc. Track temp was nearly 95F. Intake temps soared over 105°F.

    Few weeks before to today I have had absolutely no signs of the issue at all. No drag of any kind. I really think my pilot bearing may have been causing this issue because of not seating it as deeply as may be called for. Its either that or the disks finally got that micron of clearance they needed.

    My clutch drives like (but better than) OEM 100% of the time now. It makes next to zero chatter once I realized my 2000cc injectors were causing the choppy idle. I increased my target lambda at idle to 0.81 to I injector duty above 1% and viola. No chop and no induced chatter of any kind at 1000rpm. When the AC comes on I need to increase idle to 1150rpm and it's next to silent.

    With the OEM trans mount, and OEM shift boot properly installed I have next to no noise inside of the cabin.

    It's everything I'd hoped it would be. I'm really sorry to hear about your experience man. What did you go with?
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  3. #52
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    Yea i realize they're a hit or miss with everyone. I'm not chsncing my trans for this one tho.

    I was hoping for it to work out because initially when i had this clutch installed it was a dream for a few hundred miles.

    Now I can't wait to drop the trans and get rid of it this weekend.

    Im looking into an OS Geiken setup. Doing some homework for other options now.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  4. #53
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    The R3C is supposed to be a fantastic clutch. It's noisy as heck, but a great clutch. If they had a dampened version with a DMF or something along those lines I'd have gotten that. OSG is a fantastic company and product. I just didn't want the insane noise.

    If you get the R3C absolutely without a doubt get the Grannas Tilton slave kit for the V160. It looks like a fantastic part.

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  6. #54
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    The R3C is supposed to be a fantastic clutch. It's noisy as heck, but a great clutch. If they had a dampened version with a DMF or something along those lines I'd have gotten that. OSG is a fantastic company and product. I just didn't want the insane noise.

    If you get the R3C absolutely without a doubt get the Grannas Tilton slave kit for the V160. It looks like a fantastic part.
    I'll look into that. I don't mind the chatter much so long as function/driveability/and reliability are there.

    Thanks man

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    The R3C is supposed to be a fantastic clutch. It's noisy as heck, but a great clutch. If they had a dampened version with a DMF or something along those lines I'd have gotten that. OSG is a fantastic company and product. I just didn't want the insane noise.

    If you get the R3C absolutely without a doubt get the Grannas Tilton slave kit for the V160. It looks like a fantastic part.
    My OS Giken R3C with the alteration kit has improved night and day after very few miles on it. Initially I hated it, but now it's slipping predictably, smoothly engaging and with minimal noise at idle (950-1k rpm). Pedal feel is still heavier then stock, but I like it now.
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  8. #56
    AFK Kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Just want to mention that typically it is essential to use a molybdenum sulfide grease for the input shaft, and throwout bearing surface. Regular grease won't last.
    The right grease makes night and day difference for long-use daily drivers. Regular grease lasts a couple thousands miles but the right stuff lasts 50k~ or whatever.

  9. #57
    SupraForums Member SMTSPCL's Avatar
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    Glad you sorted it out as i am looking for a good deal on the triple, maybe around holidays. Chatter had me going mental initially too, but in 2016 i posted the RPM fix that worked for me, i run mine at 1100 RPM idle so things are no longer embarrassing at the traffic light

    https://www.supraforums.com/forum/sh...1#post12846938

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  10. #58
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    I noticed you have the previous generation twin. The new design is a solid disk. No spline interface to seat them on. You can definitely idle at 1000rpm with the new triple and zero chatter. Now with your big cams it might still lope enough to cause it. I'm not sure.

  11. #59
    Site Sponsor Jay Meagher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupraMan36 View Post
    I officially give up on this clutch, waste of time and money trying to correct a 3k investment for your 6k plus v160.

    Went to change my fluid and found metal shavings all in my fluid. This Being my Second fluid change I know the only thing altered was the clutch assembly.

    Super frustrating and I'm surprised real street is behind this clutch as much as they are. It makes me wonder if this is why Titan removed this clutch off their website.

    Guys If you own this clutch and have a few thousand miles on it. Check your trans oil to make sure your not setting yourself up for failure.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    I'm sorry to hear you're having a bad experience. I'd like to know more about what's happening with your transmission and possibly your explanation of how a clutch could create a scenario that a transmission could start shedding metal shavings. If you had a situation that the clutch wasn't disengaging due to a bent disc, improper manufacturing or a lack of disengagement due to hydraulic issues you'd feel it when shifting. If you ignored a hard shifting transmission you will damage the synchronizers and the blocking rings would be first to go as they're the most consumable part in the trans. The blocking rings are more or less the "brakes" applied to help match the internal speeds as you make a gear change and they're going to get beat up fast if you have a disengagement issue. They're made up or brass, bronze or lined with friction material like a auto trans clutch or carbon fiber.

    I can speak for Real St when I say I've had good luck with RPS products. I'm currently using a RPS triple in my personal car with a V160 and I'm happy with it's operation, I miss the soft balanced pedal feel the stock clutch master offered compared to the Tilton master but overall for a clutch that holds as much power as it does some concessions have to be made. I may go back to a RPS twin as my car is slated for under 1000whp in it's current form and both Mark and Geo had good luck with their twins around that power level.

    I can't speak for Titan, you'd have to call and ask them.

    Jason,
    As I noted at the TRC event your idle quality was pretty poor and I wanted you to make sure you didn't have a low/dead cylinder at idle. Didn't you confirm you'd found a problem with the engine?


    Thanks
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  12. #60
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Jay the cylinders are all 170~psi. I noticed the injector duty was well below 1.0%. when I increased target lambda at idle from 1.00 to 0.81 lambda it completely eliminated the choppy sound that was inducing the chatter (due to increasing the injector duty). These are generic Bosch 210# injectors. So I'm sure if I went to a smaller injector I wouldn't need to idle so rich. As soon as the injectors duty increases over 1.3%~ or so it eliminates the choppy idle.

    To summarize: all of the issues I was having are now eliminated. Plus I got rid of the popping idle lol

    Oh and just as you said: nearly all of the OSG LSD chatters is gone. It rarely does it at all now. Car tracks straight as an arrow and corners quite well.
    Last edited by TheProPilot; 05-01-2019 at 01:58 PM.

  13. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    The R3C is supposed to be a fantastic clutch. It's noisy as heck, but a great clutch. If they had a dampened version with a DMF or something along those lines I'd have gotten that. OSG is a fantastic company and product. I just didn't want the insane noise.

    If you get the R3C absolutely without a doubt get the Grannas Tilton slave kit for the V160. It looks like a fantastic part.
    Actually, the OSG R3C is not inherently louder than other multi-disc clutches, IMO. As you, and others, have noted, raising the idle to around 1,000 rpm takes care of the problem for most, if not all, such clutches in apples to apples comparisons. My R4C from circa 2001/2002 (since improved upon, I believe) is quiet with a 1050 rpm idle, as is my TR2CD at an even 1,000 rpm, IIRC. I know it's all personal as far as the attributes we want our cars to portray, but the box of marbles sound, and noise in general, never bothered me, probably since I've been using OSG clutches since 1998.

    Quick story: When Nils Leufven, the founder of to4r.com, and I represented Turbo Magazine in the G-Games competition many years ago, our cars were idling track side right after our hot laps, and just about everybody who heard the cars walked over to us and asked us "what's wrong" with your motor/tranny/clutch? It was a funny aside in a screaming hot day (108-degrees) that was cooled down just a bit by some good humor.


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  14. #62
    Twin Meister
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    BTW, from my experience, the loudest clutch I've personally heard on a street car, was the triple disc made by Exedy. Exedy made good, high quality, JDM products, but its clutches never seem to hold real MKIV Supra APU power, so you don't hear much about these clutches in these types of discussions.


    Ken.

  15. #63
    AFK Kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Meagher View Post
    ... you will damage the synchronizers and the blocking rings would be first to go as they're the most consumable part in the trans. The blocking rings are more or less the "brakes"
    Did you mean the BAULK rings?
    FRC8777R_13.JPG

    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    ...These are generic Bosch 210# injectors. So I'm sure if I went to a smaller injector I wouldn't need to idle so rich. As soon as the injectors duty increases over 1.3%~ or so it eliminates the choppy idle.
    some tips for eliminating a rich idle with large injectors:
    1. reduce fuel pressure. I usually run 35-38psi baseline for turbo cars. The lower the pressure, the longer the fuel system components will last, and the more fuel the pump will flow. This will also allow you to hold injectors open longer at idle and run less rich.
    2. higher idle speed. This is unwanted, but could be used in a pinch.
    3. higher ethanol content. This leans out the a/f ratio allowing more injector on-time.
    4. Theres probably something else I forgot about that would also help....

  16. #64
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Meagher View Post
    I'm sorry to hear you're having a bad experience. I'd like to know more about what's happening with your transmission and possibly your explanation of how a clutch could create a scenario that a transmission could start shedding metal shavings. If you had a situation that the clutch wasn't disengaging due to a bent disc, improper manufacturing or a lack of disengagement due to hydraulic issues you'd feel it when shifting. If you ignored a hard shifting transmission you will damage the synchronizers and the blocking rings would be first to go as they're the most consumable part in the trans. The blocking rings are more or less the "brakes" applied to help match the internal speeds as you make a gear change and they're going to get beat up fast if you have a disengagement issue. They're made up or brass, bronze or lined with friction material like a auto trans clutch or carbon fiber.

    I can speak for Real St when I say I've had good luck with RPS products. I'm currently using a RPS triple in my personal car with a V160 and I'm happy with it's operation, I miss the soft balanced pedal feel the stock clutch master offered compared to the Tilton master but overall for a clutch that holds as much power as it does some concessions have to be made. I may go back to a RPS twin as my car is slated for under 1000whp in it's current form and both Mark and Geo had good luck with their twins around that power level.

    I can't speak for Titan, you'd have to call and ask them.

    Jason,
    As I noted at the TRC event your idle quality was pretty poor and I wanted you to make sure you didn't have a low/dead cylinder at idle. Didn't you confirm you'd found a problem with the engine?


    Thanks
    Jay,

    I'm completely aware that the issue is the dragging clutch. My trans was shifting smooth 100% prior to the RPS set up. Whats odd is everyone who puts some miles on the clutch gets better with time. Mine has not improved a smidge.

    I was getting away with getting the car in gear by going from 4th to 1st just to get the shifter to go in smoothly. I have to do the same with reverse. Once rolling things shifting isn't as tight.

    The metal in my trans oil Did have a bronze look to it. And there was plenty of it.for what its worth I Iike to change out my fluid every year for peace of mind. This was the first time my oil looked like the midnight sky with bronze stars.

    I'm just ticked off that I intended to by my last clutch ever and it's pushed me need to rebuild my trans and purchase a different clutch.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  17. #65
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Don't change the fluid once a year dude. That is no bueno. Those synchros need the rainbow flakes in there to get drag. Each time you change the fluid you're doing similar to removing corrosion from a metal surface without recoating it. It just corrodes again. If that makes sense. Don't change your fluid frequently as this wears the synchros FASTER as it needs that material swimming around to create additional drag. It acts like an interface.

    Kingtalon - I did all of those things. I'm running 30psi now. It helped exactly zero from 45psi. 0.81 is what I am needing to run to get it to not skip injector sprays. This is at 70% "winter" ethanol content. Now that it's 79% I'm sure I could lean it back out some more. But I don't feel like fiddling with it any more for when "winter" blends come back. I'm already idling at 1000rpm and I hate high idle. I love a smooth low idle. To me it's a representation of how well it's been put together and calibrated. I hate needing to idle at 1000 but like Jay said - some things have to be compromised to obtain reliable high power. There are other things. Decreasing IAT will yield a higher injector duty. So even though it's summer blends right now at 80% ethanol - the IAT is so high I still have to keep it 0.81. Trust me man - I've spent months fiddling with it to perfection. Ultimately I may end up doing a dual injector setup and using ID1000x2 for each cylinder.

    At this point I simply don't want to mess with it anymore. Right bow it runs like it's an OEM car - but with a whole lotta extra power. You literally cannot tell whether or not it's stock with an exhaust or fully built. And I love that. Hence the Super Dragger. Hence wanting small cams. Hence wanting the best multi disk in terms of pedal feel and chatter at idle as possible, Etc.

  18. #66
    Site Sponsor Jay Meagher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProPilot View Post
    Jay the cylinders are all 170~psi. I noticed the injector duty was well below 1.0%. when I increased target lambda at idle from 1.00 to 0.81 lambda it completely eliminated the choppy sound that was inducing the chatter (due to increasing the injector duty). These are generic Bosch 210# injectors. So I'm sure if I went to a smaller injector I wouldn't need to idle so rich. As soon as the injectors duty increases over 1.3%~ or so it eliminates the choppy idle.

    To summarize: all of the issues I was having are now eliminated. Plus I got rid of the popping idle lol

    Oh and just as you said: nearly all of the OSG LSD chatters is gone. It rarely does it at all now. Car tracks straight as an arrow and corners quite well.
    That's great news! Yes, 1ms is dicey for many injectors.

  19. #67
    Site Sponsor Jay Meagher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupraMan36 View Post
    Jay,

    I'm completely aware that the issue is the dragging clutch. My trans was shifting smooth 100% prior to the RPS set up. Whats odd is everyone who puts some miles on the clutch gets better with time. Mine has not improved a smidge.

    I was getting away with getting the car in gear by going from 4th to 1st just to get the shifter to go in smoothly. I have to do the same with reverse. Once rolling things shifting isn't as tight.

    The metal in my trans oil Did have a bronze look to it. And there was plenty of it.for what its worth I Iike to change out my fluid every year for peace of mind. This was the first time my oil looked like the midnight sky with bronze stars.

    I'm just ticked off that I intended to by my last clutch ever and it's pushed me need to rebuild my trans and purchase a different clutch.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    I'd want you to make sure a disc didn't get bent during install, the discs are floating on the input shaft and you're opening the pressure plate enough to have air gap between the moving parts. What you're experiencing isn't normal.

    Thanks

  20. #68
    Racing is Life. TheProPilot's Avatar
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    Resized_20190301_093051_3752.jpeg

    I'll just leave this here. If you haven't contacted Jay directly about your clutch issues...

  21. #69
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Meagher View Post
    I'd want you to make sure a disc didn't get bent during install, the discs are floating on the input shaft and you're opening the pressure plate enough to have air gap between the moving parts. What you're experiencing isn't normal.

    Thanks
    I'll give it a shot, and document it as I go thru it so I can upload. But I honestly don't feel like going in there just yet. I may go for it next week. Don't even want to look at it atm .

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  22. #70
    Site Sponsor Jay Meagher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenHenderson View Post
    BTW, from my experience, the loudest clutch I've personally heard on a street car, was the triple disc made by Exedy. Exedy made good, high quality, JDM products, but its clutches never seem to hold real MKIV Supra APU power, so you don't hear much about these clutches in these types of discussions.


    Ken.
    It's certainly hard to quantify what one considers loud, it's like what's spicy food to you? Generally the heavier the unit the less noise the trans makes, from there it's up to how the parts are captured. My only experience with OS Giken clutches is nearly 15 years old so it's a faded memory at best but I think it's a nice unit. I'll have to get one here and check it out. I do like the hub drive design from the aspect that it's harder to screw up installation. A couple guys on their backs trying to install a transmission isn't exactly harmonious.

  23. #71
    Site Sponsor Jay Meagher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupraMan36 View Post
    I'll give it a shot, and document it as I go thru it so I can upload. But I honestly don't feel like going in there just yet. I may go for it next week. Don't even want to look at it atm .

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    If you want to mail me the clutch I can look at it. I've worked with the product a lot and think it's "hard" to install compared to other clutches as you have to align parts as you connect the pressure plate.

    If you're frustrated and have a second car let it sit until you're calm about it. More often than not, frustrated thought processes equal frustrating processes.

    I know the product works well, there are lots of parts in this market I quietly stay away from because they don't work.

  24. #72
    SupraForums Member SupraMan36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Meagher View Post
    If you want to mail me the clutch I can look at it. I've worked with the product a lot and think it's "hard" to install compared to other clutches as you have to align parts as you connect the pressure plate.

    If you're frustrated and have a second car let it sit until you're calm about it. More often than not, frustrated thought processes equal frustrating processes.

    I know the product works well, there are lots of parts in this market I quietly stay away from because they don't work.
    Jay I'd appreciate that man, to rule out anything possible. Very thankful for your consideration. I will let you know when I get this thing on some jackstands to knock it out.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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