Actual evidence on Yamaha co-developing the 2JZ-Engine?

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  1. #1
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    Actual evidence on Yamaha co-developing the 2JZ-Engine?

    Gentlemen, I am in the Supra Business for almost 20 years now. I have gathered, listed, sourced and documented each and every info I could find about the MKIV-Supra.
    See my compendium of Specs I have worked on for 15 years now: https://www.supraforums.com/forum/sh...ium&highlight=

    Now seeing the late discussion about the new MKV-Supra and how People hate the BMW-sourced I6, comparing it to the 2JZ, there's one thing that caught my Attention:
    Is there any evidence on Yamaha co-developing the 2JZ with Toyota or is it just an urban myth?

    By source I don't mean Wikipedia where this is also stated. Everyone can edit Wikipedia. By source I mean any technical documents like New Car Features, Sales Trainings, Brochures, etc.
    I have a shitload of Brochures, NCF, Workshop Manuals, Magazine Articles from the 90s but None of them is mentioning any Kind of collaboration between Yamaha and Toyota engine-wise.

    On the 2000GT it's a fact that the engine has been developed with Yamaha, same on the Lexus LFA. But is there any evidence on the 2JZ?
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    ...pop the hood! jdm-rhd's Avatar
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    not sure of any "sources" but ive always heard yamaha was involved...

    you are hearing it more now and about the v160 being german made with people defending the mkv co-developement
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdm-rhd View Post
    not sure of any "sources" but ive always heard yamaha was involved...

    you are hearing it more now and about the v160 being german made with people defending the mkv co-developement
    On the MKIV German R&D and made parts are:
    - Getrag Transmission
    - LuK Flywheel
    - RECARO seats on 1995+ J-Spec RZ-Models

    The co-development with Yamaha seems to be an Urban Myth.
    Same as with a Company called "Krause Maschinenfabrik" being responsible for the Cylinder Head. I've contacted Krause some 5 years ago and they could ensure they haven't been involved in R&D or production of any Toyota Engine.

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    Having personal experience with all of the tuner magazines from yesteryear (Turbo, Sport Compact Car, Import Tuner, SuperStreet, Modified), I would never use articles from those magazines as primary source documentation to prove anything. Almost without exception the writers were young impressionable kids who didn't know the difference between an oil filter and an air filter.

    Most major Japanese manufacturers have development partners or development associates. These are, for the most part long-standing relationships that are obviously mutually beneficial to the companies involved. Toyota and Yamaha have such a relationship, as does Toyota and Aisin and other Tier 1 suppliers. To the best of my recollection, Toyota developed the 2JZ-GTE and, as it is wont to do, sent off the head to Yamaha for massaging. The work done by Yamaha was productionized and here we are. As an aside, Yamaha developed the heads on the original Ford Taurus SHO. Each project/partnership has its own particular characteristics, the detailed knowledge of which are only known to the partners involved and their principals.

    Somehow, the above turned into the 2JZ-GTE being a Yamaha motor, which has gained renewed life with all the wailing and knashing of teeth going on with the BMW B58 motor being used in the MKV Supra. It's important to note that no major (or minor) auto manufacturer makes all the parts included in its cars. As Aisin is a major supplier of transmissions to Japanese vehicles, so is ZF for many European makes. Mercedes supplies motors to Pagani and its transmissions are in a number of Astons. The key, particularly for Toyota products is that Toyota develops the specifications for these products whether or not they are developed in house or with a development partner. Yes, the Getrag was developed and manufactured by the German company of the same name, but it was the Getrag 233 being manufactured to Toyota specifications that made all the difference in the world. There are lots of Getrag trannies in other cars, but none were/are as stout as the venerable Getrag 233.

    IMO, the 2JZ-GTE is as about as genuinely Toyota as it can get, especially when one considers how vehicles are developed and manufactured in the 21st and late 20th centuries. Rest in peace.


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  8. #6
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    Ken, it's always a pleasure to have you involved in a discussion! Appreciate it, Sir!

    I fully agree on not trusting any Tuner Magazines as sources for the reasons mentioned above. For my Research I am trying to only use either Primary Sources of Information (Sales Literatures, Magazine Articles from the 90s, etc.) or my own Research based on evaluating Pictures or similar.

    It's a fact that Car manufacturers use third parties for developing, sourcing and manufacturing components. I myself used to work as a contracted engineer for Volkswagen and BMW. What only few People know, at least about German cars, is that a lot of Knowledge and Technology has drained to a few Tier 1 suppliers and Engineering companies in Germany, that work for all the Major OEMs.
    All due to out-sourcing activites.
    So, if you enjoy something about a Volkswagen, BMW or German-made Ford vehicle, chances are good key Elements of the car have been developed by companies such as IAV, Bertrandt, AVL, etc.
    Everyone knows the big OEM names such as Mercedes, but only Little People know the supply chain behind it.

    However, if speaking about Toyota and Yamaha, this relationship goes far beyond this type of normal Supplier-OEM bands. The collaboration between both companies is a Marketing Instrument, something that is mentioned throughout media and official Press Releases.
    For instance, for the 2000GT and LFA, Yamaha even Features these collaborations in their own heritage, see:
    https://global.yamaha-motor.com/abou...ries/0012.html
    https://archive.yamaha.com/en/news_r.../20091021.html
    This is proper Primary sources, as it's official Yamaha-Paperprint

    See, what I put emphasize on is, that if neither Toyota nor Yamaha mention any Kind of collaboration on the 2JZ or Supra Plattform, there is definitely no collaboration that was done here. There is no R&D, no Performance Tuning or anything done by Yamaha, it's all genuine Toyota-Products, as you mentioned. Which is a good Thing.
    Otherwise Toyota would have stressed their collaboration as a Marketing instrument. Yamaha is not a simple Tier 1 supplier.
    It just kind of annoys me the 2JZ-Yamaha Thing has become some sort of Urban Myth, by People repeating it over and over again. A rumor has become a fact.

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    Maybe it is a rumor carried from 1jz, since old 1jz have Yamaha label molded in spark plug / cam cover


    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous01 View Post
    On the MKIV German R&D and made parts are:
    - Getrag Transmission
    - LuK Flywheel
    - RECARO seats on 1995+ J-Spec RZ-Models
    +Bilstein yellow suspension, atleast on j-spec models oem option from factory
    Last edited by kaahari; 02-06-2019 at 08:34 AM.


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    That's it! I was under the impression the 1JZ is somewhat related to Yamaha, just didn't know why. I am not a MK3 guy... considering the fact there are 1.5JZ engines exisiting, so more aggressive 1JZ Heads put on to 2JZ Short Blocks it seems the aggressive 1JZ Head might be refined by Yamaha. So you are most probably right, the Yamaha-2JZ might be a misconception resulting from the 1JZ Head Design. And thanks for correcting me on the Bilstein Coilovers, totally forgot about those!

  11. #9
    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Having had many non-vvti 1JZ and 2JZ heads apart I can say that unequivocally that the fundamental design elements of both heads are essentially identical. The 2JZ head has worthwhile differences in the port design and overall flow rates of course but that's commensurate with its use on a more powerful 3.0L engine vs a 2.5L. If Yamaha did enough to justify a 'Yamaha' logo on the non-vvti 1JZ-GTE, Yamaha without a doubt deserves credit for 2JZ design involvement as well. It's self-evident to anyone that has the components in front of them, and compares them to other DOHC engine designs from other manufacturers.

    Of significant note, Yamaha had fundamental involvement in Toyota's first DOHC engine in the 3M-G - and the whole 2000GT as a car itself. As such, Yamaha was a primary developer in all of the DOHC shim-on-bucket & shimless bucket cylinder head designs so common in virtually all Toyota models these days.
    This is exhaustively described in Shin Yoshikawa's book "Toyota 2000GT: The Complete History of Japan's First Supercar" and I'm pretty sure that's still the primary reference for virtually everything 2000GT related these days.

    Virtually all Toyota DOHC engines originated and evolved from the 3M-G's design, so it would be fundamentally safe to say that all Toyota DOHC engines have some Yamaha design influence and origins. If you ever compare pictures of a 3M-G cylinder head to a 5M-GE, 6M-GE, and 7M-GE head, the evolution into a shim-on-bucket 4v design in the 7M is clearly an evolution of the Yamaha 4A-GE head design applied to the M-series I6, not some wild new clean-sheet process. That same 4v shim-on bucket design that Yamaha developed for the 4A-GE kept going (along with more Yamaha development) into the early 3S-GE & 3S-GTE, and into the JZ family from there.
    Having visually compared many of these G-series DOHC Toyota cylinder heads to Yamaha R1 and R6 sportbike engines show the same wide valve angle and fundamental similarities in port design and pent-roof combustion chamber design that is not really shared with F-series cylinder heads on more pedestrian Toyotas.
    Yamaha's involvement in the LF-A development is well documented and proves an ongoing relationship - and the 1LR-GUE was indeed a G-series cylinder head.

    While it has never been explicitly stated as such, over the ~20 years I've been playing with these Toyotas, having personally worked on 4A-GE (16v, 16v SC, and 20v) 5M-GE, 6M-GE, 7M-GE and GTE, 3S-GE (Gen 1 ST162, SW20 Beams, and SXE10 Beams), 3S-GTE (Gen II through Gen IV) and VVTi/Non VVTi variants of the 1JZ-GTE, 2JZ-GE, and 2JZ-GTE engines - I am 100% comfortable saying that the fundamental Yamaha design 'DNA' is overwhelmingly consistent throughout all of those cylinder heads. Yamaha logos were present on the 3S-GTE, Beams 3S-GE, and both the VVTi and non-VVTi 1JZ-GTE. So there's clear Yamaha involvement in Toyota performance engines during the prime time of development of the Non-VVTi and VVTi variants of the 2JZ-GTE.

    Overall, when comparing the G-series heads to Toyota's F-series heads, particularly when shared on the same block design as found with 5S-FE vs 3S-GE, and 4A-GE vs 7A-FE, the Yamaha design influence is pretty obvious in the performance heads. Enough so that I'd be comfortable saying that any Toyota G-series head is fundamentally related to Yamaha head design, if not directly made by Yamaha entirely.

    The only possible exception is with the Toyota 2T-G and 3T-GTE/4T-GTE engines which were true hemi 2 valve designs with twin spark plugs, and I only say that because I haven't personally laid eyes on one of those bare heads to compare them with other GE/GTE heads of later engine designs. I have a feeling that comparing those to a 5M-G or 6M-G head would show a lot of similarities.


    It's also worth noting that Ford Taurus SHO engines were not just Yamaha cylinder heads - they were 100% Yamaha engines.


    At the end of the day, though, Yamaha is a Japanese company much like Toyota, and as such they live that fundamental design philosophy of precise optimization, quality, reliability, and simplicity wherever possible. So whether the 2JZ's cylinder head design was Toyota or Yamaha is largely irrelevant because Toyota cast the cylinder heads and Toyota assembled the engines and Toyota installed them in Toyota cars on Toyota production lines, and they've performed admirably to Toyota reliability and consistency standards for many years.


    Absolutely none of which is true about the MK5 Z4pra.
    Last edited by Wreckless; 02-06-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless View Post
    Absolutely none of which is true about the MK5 Z4pra.
    This is my biggest gripe.
    It would seem that Toyota was demanding “build me this” to their partners when they built the MKiV.
    For the Zupra, it would seem BMW stated “we can build you this” to Toyota.
    Which Toyota accepted, with seemingly little struggle, and handed over some emblems and Supra badging.

    “In 1990, Toyota debuted the three overlapping Ellipses logo on American vehicles. The Toyota Ellipses symbolize the unification of the hearts of our customers and the heart of Toyota products. The background space represents Toyota's technological advancement and the boundless opportunities ahead.”

    Apparently not.

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    SupraForums Member airhead04's Avatar
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    Not sure on the 2jz but on the 1jz Yamaha is stamped into the plastic cover of the engine.

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    SupraForums Member JoeSupra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airhead04 View Post
    Not sure on the 2jz but on the 1jz Yamaha is stamped into the plastic cover of the engine.
    No it's not which makes me think why would Yahama not put their name on something they supposedly helped with? Maybe they didnt actually help.
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    That could come down to simple percentage of work done warranting a stamp. If they did most of the work on the 1J head, but just did revision work on the 2J, it might just be one of those things where they contributed, but didn't actually redesign the entire head. I'd assume that is the case.

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    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSupra View Post
    No it's not which makes me think why would Yahama not put their name on something they supposedly helped with? Maybe they didnt actually help.
    Why would a company with a easily recognized and trademarked name and brand allow the use of that name and brand on a product they had little or nothing to do with?

    Yamaha did a lot of cylinder head development for the vast majority of if not all of Toyota's performance engines.

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    SupraForums Member airhead04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSupra View Post
    No it's not which makes me think why would Yahama not put their name on something they supposedly helped with? Maybe they didnt actually help.
    1jzvvti has YAMAHA on the cover. If you are saying no to it being on the 1j. A quick google search can find those pics everywhere

  18. #16
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    Makes sense that a piano company designed our cylinder heads...
    PM me on low mile Blk/Blk’s

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    Question to suit. 220's Avatar
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    They make decent golf clubs, too.

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    Just call yamaha

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    I’ve heard rumors also that the heads are very similar to BMWs designs. Anyone worked on BMW engines from the 70s and 80s?

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    I've always heard Yamaha had a collaboration with Toyota in their 1J and 2J engine platforms. I do know the 6-speed was sourced from the German company Getrag, which also provided Nissan with a 6-speed platform for the R34 Skylines. BMW also used Getrag transmissions in their M3 models to my knowledge as well.

    I'd anticipate that mostly all performance engines in the 90's were a collaboration. RB engines in the GTR's, Rotary RX-7, Honda/Acura Vtec in the NSX, and finally our 2JZ I6.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 220 View Post
    They make decent golf clubs, too.
    Amplifiers aren't too shabby either.

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    This doesn't add or subtract from the conversation but the 1ZZ literally has Yamahahahaha stamped on the head where you can see it.
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    SupraForums Member JoeSupra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless View Post
    Why would a company with a easily recognized and trademarked name and brand allow the use of that name and brand on a product they had little or nothing to do with?

    Yamaha did a lot of cylinder head development for the vast majority of if not all of Toyota's performance engines.
    They have it on the 1jz and that's my point. I believe they didnt have involvement because it's not anywhere to be found on the 2jz. Plus the fact we cant find any evidence either.


    Quote Originally Posted by airhead04 View Post
    1jzvvti has YAMAHA on the cover. If you are saying no to it being on the 1j. A quick google search can find those pics everywhere
    I was saying no to the 2jz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSupra View Post
    They have it on the 1jz and that's my point. I believe they didnt have involvement because it's not anywhere to be found on the 2jz. Plus the fact we cant find any evidence either.
    Joe - I'm telling you, that if you had non-VVTi 1JZ-GTE and 2JZ-GTE heads stripped and sitting side by side, you would agree that if one of them is 'Yamaha' then the other one is, too. Who knows why there's Yamaha on the 1JZ's but not the 2JZ's - the fundamental points are:
    -Yamaha had a proven collaboration with Toyota for a lot of engine development, and still does.
    -Whether or not one is 'Yamaha' and the other is not is irrelevant in the context of the BMW vs Toyota MK5 discussion, because they are both Japanese companies and all of the Yamayota/Toyomaha cylinder heads/engines/whateverthefuck were all cast, machined, and assembled in Japan on Japanese tooling to that legendary 90's Toyota standard of production quality. None of that is true about the MK5.

    So if someone is saying there's precedence to Toyota collaborating on projects the correct answer is yes.
    But if they're implying that justifies the idea of selling a 100% BMW designed-to-explode-in-36k miles heap that's made in Austria, and pretending it's the same or better than a ToyYamaYotaMaha JZ collaboration that was all built by Toyota in-house, they're smoking shit so good that they probably think using a Fleshlight counts as getting laid.

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    For what it's worth...

    I googled and translated a couple Japanese sites and found the following:

    Design of Yamaha Motor only 1 JZ-GTE among JZ . Nevertheless, Toyota manufactures components such as engine block casting .

    There is no involvement of Yamaha Motor in other JZ, especially 2JZ series.
    and

    1JZ-GTE - The engine which was designed exclusively by Yamaha Motor in the JZ series . Although it is based on 1 JZ - GE, there are very few common parts from the cylinder head to the connecting rod. Production also produced machined parts at Toyota Motor , and was in a different structure than other JZ engines, which Yamaha Motor is in charge of.
    also

    In the JZ series, Yamaha was responsible for designing only 1 JZ.

    2JZ is manufactured by Toyota.
    http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%83%A8%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BBJZ ...

    I tried quite well on my Supra Catalog and materials However, I did not mention Yamaha as a word.
    1JZ-GTE
    1jzgte yamaha.jpg

    1JZ-GTE VVTi
    1jzgte vvti yamaha.jpg

    Toyota JZX100
    300zx177002.jpg

    Toyota JZX110
    JZX110W_BLIT_YAMAHA_2019118_6-640x425.jpg
    Last edited by SupraPolak; 02-16-2019 at 10:23 PM.

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