Misfire/no code

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  1. #1
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    Misfire/no code

    Ok im continuing this from an aborted fuel injector thread. Thatll be postponed for a while i guess.

    This is an 87 turbo, about 215000 miles.
    These are the results of my compression test:

    6 - 10psi dry / 30psi wet
    5 - 10psi dry / 30psi wet
    4 - 160psi dry
    3 - 170psi dry
    2 - 180psi dry
    1 - 160psi dry

    So from this im thinking straightaway it must be a leaking HG between #5/#6.
    The even rise in psi after adding 2 capfuls of oil to them tells me the valves must be all good. But i guess it could possibly be bad piston rings, but just 2 out of 6 rings? And adjacent piston rings at that?

    As for the high readings for #2/#3, maybe just carbon deposits i think. Not too worried about those, i would kill to have compression that high on #5/#6.

    But the headgasket was replaced just before i bought the car about 4 years ago, or so i was led to believe. They showed me the reciept from the machine shop for resurfacing the head.


    So, does anyone have any input here?

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  3. #2
    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giltheartist View Post
    Ok im continuing this from an aborted fuel injector thread. Thatll be postponed for a while i guess.

    This is an 87 turbo, about 215000 miles.
    These are the results of my compression test:

    6 - 10psi dry / 30psi wet
    5 - 10psi dry / 30psi wet
    4 - 160psi dry
    3 - 170psi dry
    2 - 180psi dry
    1 - 160psi dry

    So from this im thinking straightaway it must be a leaking HG between #5/#6.
    The even rise in psi after adding 2 capfuls of oil to them tells me the valves must be all good. But i guess it could possibly be bad piston rings, but just 2 out of 6 rings? And adjacent piston rings at that?

    As for the high readings for #2/#3, maybe just carbon deposits i think. Not too worried about those, i would kill to have compression that high on #5/#6.

    But the headgasket was replaced just before i bought the car about 4 years ago, or so i was led to believe. They showed me the reciept from the machine shop for resurfacing the head.


    So, does anyone have any input here?
    The cheap non-Toyota composite HG's are not that great, and 5 & 6 are normal failure cylinders for the HG.

    However, by the time you got only 10psi of compression due to a HG failure, you'd be dumping white smoke and losing a lot of coolant, usual BHG problems. It'd be pretty unusual for the HG to only have failed between 5 & 6 and have NOT also leaked into a water jacket. But not impossible.
    See if you can find a mechanic buddy or otherwise borrow or use a combustion gas test kit. It will use a sample of your coolant and test it for exposure to fuel/combustion byproducts which will readily nail down whether or not it's a head gasket.

    If the car is modified and running higher boost, I would suspect the piston ring lands being cracked from detonation, and 5 and 6 are again common failure cylinders for this. With damage to the piston itself you will not see much of a rise in compression when wet. Given the circumstances and your other posts I'm guessing the car is not heavily modified? If the car is running stock-ish boost and isn't really messed with, it'd be unusual unless you advanced the CPS to get more timing advance and filled it up with 86 before doing highway pulls or some other dumb stuff like that.

    Another possibility, albeit somewhat unlikely at the same time on two cylinders, is that the exhaust valves beat the valve seats into submission over that 200k+ miles and the valve lash was never adjusted, leading to damaged/burned exhaust valves, and thus lost compression. Because the compression didn't jump substantially when wet, valve damage is another possibility.

    Hate to say it, but the only real way to know for sure is to get the head off and see what's going on. If the valve seats are good and everything checks out there, and the HG doesn't look compromised, the only way to know is to pull the pistons out of 5 and 6 to see what's what.
    Jeff
    "I spent a lot of money on booze, chicks and fast cars. The rest I just squandered." -- George Best
    Quote Originally Posted by KING View Post
    Who would have ever thought.....the impact an automobile can make.....

  4. #3
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    Yeah its all stock besides 3" exhaust and 3core radiator.
    I havnt been losing any coolant at all and my oil is clean as can be. Its been really cold around here so every cars exhaust looks white and cloudy, i cant really tell exactly, smelled like exhaust.
    if its not one of those 3 things, idk.
    Im pulling the head tomorrow and gonna have a machine shop do a full onceover.

    Ive been putting off doing the oil pan so i might just wait and get a hoist to pull the block out to fipg the pan too.
    Last edited by giltheartist; 03-01-2019 at 11:10 PM.

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  6. #4
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    pull the motor OP....I have done it both ways and removing the motor is just easier in my opinion (vs HG in car repair). when you pull the pan....shim the oil pump pressure spring while your in there (its free...). pull a main bearing with thrust washers and inspect. pull a rod bearing and visually inspect. for bonus points check it with a micrometer and/or plastiguage to verify clearance on bearings. buy a new toyota front / rear main seal, and do the timing belt while your in there. I would replace the cam seals oil pump drive shaft seals too.

    read quakes thread about soft aluminum on cylinder heads (heads crushing/flattening out under head bolts causing blown HG when all else appears to be right), how to diagnose the dreaded soft aluminum head issue (and the arp washer trick to remedy)


    off the top of my head, that is where i would start. good luck OP we r here to help and don't forget to snap some pics and post if you can.
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  7. #5
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    Ok i didnt pull the block but i pulled the head.

    Heres one major pro-tip i wish i wouldve known about ahead of time:
    The top banjo bolt on the fuel rail inlet line where it bolts to the block by the starter will gush fuel forever. Manual said " oh just put a rag down to sop up the excess " BULL. I soaked 2 tshirts, and filled 3 water bottles, and it was still freakin comin.
    Youve gotta plug that thing unless your lines are bone dry.
    I was scrambling for a bolt that would fit but that banjo is Huge.
    I eventually tried the big bolt from under the turbo with some teflon tape and got it plugged.
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    Another pro-tip, the shop crane: i had read that the 1 tonner would be too short of an overhang, so i bought the 2 tonner and i had to adjust the arm out to the 1 ton mark, as far as it goes out, to actually get it to hover over the engine without removing the bumper.

    And then once i got the thing hooked to the head, the crane was lifting the whole front end of the car. The head was stuck to the block. After taking a short research break and reading about people prying up on their runner holes, which i think is stupid. I got the chains taut and lifted about another half inch letting the weight of the car help me seperate the surfaces but not so high that it would scar itself when cracking loose. i decided to take the alternator bracket off and give a couple upward whacks with a rubber mallet. That broke the seal slightly but enough to be able to manhandle the intake runner and exhaust manifold with my bare hands to finish separating the mating surfaces and the car drops down that half inch allowing the crane to remain taut and in control of the suspended head.
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  9. #7
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    The bolts: so #7 was very easy crack loose. #14 and #12 were significantly tighter. #8 is pictured here below, the only one i saw visible damage on to the thread, about the 3rd thread down the bolt, you can see what looks like corrosion or even burning/melting.
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  10. #8
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    And heres my asshole BHG, bridging right between 5 & 6 just like i thought.

    Im gonna take this head to a machine shop to get the valves all checked out/maybe refinished.
    I have my work cut out for me cleaning the gasket off this damn block until then though.
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  11. #9
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    I also read in my manual that, and i quote:
    "Low compression on the first stroke, followed by gradually increasing pressure on successive strokes, indicates worn piston rings."
    So since my compression test was a steady 10psi, i have to think that my rings must be ok. Which is confirmed with the next sentence:
    "A low compression reading on the first stroke, which doesnt build up during successive strokes, indicates leaking valves or a blown head gasket."
    Since ive found a BHG im now just crossing my fingers that my valves are all salvageable/reusable.

  12. #10
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    The fuel keeps coming out because (I bet) the gas cap was on ! A long time ago I pulled a motor in my dad's driveway....when it was 50 degrees out. It warmed up 2 days later and pushed a ton of gas out due to expanding air (warming) in the tank. I learned early, take the has cap off B4 you unhook fuel lines. Good to see ur making progress.

  13. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by madisonMK3 View Post
    The fuel keeps coming out because (I bet) the gas cap was on ! A long time ago I pulled a motor in my dad's driveway....when it was 50 degrees out. It warmed up 2 days later and pushed a ton of gas out due to expanding air (warming) in the tank. I learned early, take the has cap off B4 you unhook fuel lines. Good to see ur making progress.
    Sonuvabitch i didnt think of that in the moment, well now i know.

  14. #12
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    With the head off the car you should replace the valve seals at the very least, and a valve grind would be a great idea. I assume you plan to get the head decked so the valve work is not that much more at this point. Also would be a good idea to check the coolant plugs in the center cover for leaks, the giant coolant banjo at the back for leaks, and helicoil any exhaust header studs that are stripped. Also replace the cam seals.

  15. #13
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    So i got a quote from the machine shop, $85 if the valves arent damaged, $300+ if they are.

    I found some gnarly vertical scratches in cylinder 3+4 in the block, so i guess ill have to pull the damn thing anyway.

    Somebody mentioned replacing the oil squirters, is that the technical name? I tried to do a search and if im not mistaken, theres one for each cylinder, and its the spring in the bolt that goes bad and not the housing thing. I think i saw an oring on the pin on the squirter housing that sits in the block, is that right? Ill post the pics i found for posterity.
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    Heres some more pics, no oring which makes sense I guess.
    Theyre officially called oil check valve sub assembly by toyota apparently, but thats pretty vague sounding.
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    So im just about ready to pull out the block, and im trying to take fastener inventory on what is connecting the block to the bellhousing.

    I see
    * 2 bolts up top, just under the heater piping.
    * 4 stiffener plate bolts on either side of the block, 2 in the bell and 2 in the block per side.

    Am i missing any?
    How far should the engine come forward before raising up?

    Im not seeing any evidence of gasket or sealer on the surfaces mating the bell and block, is that right?

    Do you guys prefer to leave the stiffener plates bolted to the bell housing for installation alignment later? Or vice versa on the block?

  18. #16
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    Ok so after removing all those bolts and getting the crane hooked to the mount brackets, its still not separating from the transmission.
    I was reading somewhere that you have to unbolt the flywheel from the torque converter, so i guess im gonna try that since noone chimed in here. I have the starter off but leaving the crankshaft in so im gonna hand turn it and try to get the bolts off that way, i think there are 6 if im not mistaken.

  19. #17
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    Ok so its too much of an angle to use a wrench through the starter hole, so i removed the 6 flywheel bolts through the transmission inspection plate underneath.

    I also removed the 8 bolts holding the 2 engine mount brackets to the block so i could come forward, but this thing is still stuck to the transmision.

  20. #18
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    Got rained out yesterday after trying to seperate the bell and block forever.

    Got in there today in the sun and HOLY FVCK...theres 2 bolts hidden underneath some cable conduits running along either side of the transmission.

    So anyone trying to take the engine out without removing the transmission, the bolt tally is now 2 up top, 1 on either side, and 4 underneath through the stiffener brackets. Wouldve saved me a hell of a lot of trouble if anyone who'd done it before wouldve said something.

  21. #19
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    The gaddomn block is now out the car...whew....

    Now, to answer some of my own questions from before for anyone out there in the future to have an easier time with this.

    *Can you take out the engine and leave the transmission in place?
    Yes. Trouble getting to those top bolts in the bellhousing? Take the head off the block, then you can put it back on. Or like i did, leave it off and attach the crane to driver side stiffener bracket and power steering pump bracket.

    *How far forward does the block need to travel before going upwards?
    About an inch, i had to remove the motor mount brackets from the block. Passenger comes out first, the you can tilt the suspended block and remove the driver side. The center of the torque converter has a small protrusion that sits in the center of the flywheel. Once that is pulled away from, the flywheel will clear the bellhousing lip. CAREFUL with the transmission lines, i left mine connected to the transmission but not the block.
    I also unmounted the power steering pump and left all those lines attached.

    *Can you take the engine out with radiator in place?
    Just dont chance it, its very easy to pull it since the hoses are off and its already drained anyway. Its just careless to leave the radiator in.

    *How do you seperate the engine block from the bellhousing?
    If youre asking this then you didnt get all the bolts, ...like me... Check out the picture im attaching, the bolts circles in red are really hard to see unless youre looking for them. The blue are stiffener plate bolts, the green are the 2 top bolts.

    *What size bolts do i use to mount the block on the engine stand?
    I bought four 4" class 10.9 m10x1.25 bolts. That was wrong and its because noone has posted the following: the bolt will go into the block 1", you then add that to the length of any of the engine stands' mounting holes/tubes (which i understand will be different from brand to brand.) Then give yourself 1/4" to play with spacer/washer shimming, you want at least one on all 4 mounting bolts.
    In my case i wouldve done better to buy 3" bolts.

    Now i gotta prep it for machining.
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    Last edited by giltheartist; 03-24-2019 at 10:22 PM.

  22. #20
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    Here some pics of stuff i wanted to see beforehand but couldnt find, youre welcome future noobs 👍
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  23. #21
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    noobs reading this... my "pro-tip" would be pull the engine and trans as one entire unit. after reading this and all the pain you went through there is no doubt in my mind removal as a pair is faster.

    maybe its just me and its been a while since my first rodeo....last time I pulled my driveline it was less than 4 hours

  24. #22
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    Ok but im just saying its possible & either way is fine, knowing what i know now after doing it for the first time, it would definitely be quicker the 2nd time around but im just trying to do a good job as opposed to doing it as fast as possible.
    Noone has done a write up like this, if they did, i couldnt find it. Whoever reads this will have an easier time too. I did not want to deal with storing a loose transmission in my garage, its tight enough of a fit with all the engine stuff in there and im doing nothing to the transmission. Not to mention im doing this alone and dont have any extra hands to help wrestle with that thing.

    Moving on, i just removed my pistons and oil pump. Theres bad scoring from what i guess was debris from the oil pan.
    Looks like ill be replacing these too.

    Anyone tried adding magnets to the bottom to catch that stuff? Unless it was metal i dont think the damage would be so severe...
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  25. #23
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    So i was able to crack off the crank bolt by blocking the flywheel with a big screwdriver on one side through the torque converter mount hole resting on the oil pan surface (with a rubber hose section cushioning the end), and a ratchet extension on the other side through one of the big circle cutouts and resting the same way, on the oil pan mount surface cushioned by hose.
    Instead of an extra long breaker or impact, i used a normal breaker and just used the crane hook to lift up on the handle until the block rose a little. Then 2 or 3 good bounces of my body weight on the block got it loose.

    Then i used the same blocking technique to crack off the flywheel mounting bolts, following the loosening order per tsrm.

    The flywheel was able to come off on the engine stand. The rear main seal retainer however needed a bit more room. I used the crane to relieve weight from the stand and loosened the bolts about .25" and the retainer slipped right out.

    The timing case came out next after the crank spindle and oil pump gear per tsrm.

    Then i readied the crane to lift the crankshaft as shown in the pic below after cushioning the bearing surfaces with rubber cellulose sheet. I read it was a heavy fvcker and it really is, probably about 100lbs. Managable but opted to be on the safe side at first.
    Loosened the main bearing bolts per tsrm.

    Then oil squirters came out among other small bits and ends.

    Think its ready for machining/cleaning now, hope they dont fvck it up.
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