Was It Wise For Toyota To Collab With BMW?

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Thread: Was It Wise For Toyota To Collab With BMW?

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    Was It Wise For Toyota To Collab With BMW?


    Fans and car enthusiasts alike have been waiting years for the return of Toyota’s legendary Supra, but as more details of its co-development with BMW emerged, many have begun to question whether the risk was worth the reward. Toyota is no stranger to partnerships with other manufacturers and their tie in with Subaru for the BRZ and 86 was met with a similar reponse. So the question that needs to be asked, is if this union between Germany and Japan will play out any different.

    When you consider how Toyota conducts business around the world, they often engage in partnerships to outsource certain components and save on production costs. For the Lexus LFA, they worked with Yamaha to produce that incredible V10 and they have co-developed many economy cars with Suzuki and Mazda. When it comes to the most crucial element of the A90, namely its straight-six engine, BMW was clearly the obvious choice.

    Like every generation that precedes it, the fifth generation A90 Supra retains this powerplant. While Toyota still builds lots of V6 engines, they currently have no I-6 in production. BMW is critically acclaimed for this motor and they been building them successively since the 1930s. From a business perspective, this partnership makes sense, because it saves money and that’s what required to help new product lines grow.

    An expensive, low volume model like the Supra may have never been approved in the current climate without two fully invested partners. If this was a venture that Toyota set out to achieve on their own, the A90 may have never come about at all.

    Yes, the Supra and the Z4 share many key parts, but its an all or nothing scenario. In a market that’s dominated by crossovers and SUV’s, introducing a sports car can be a risky endeavor. Would we be better off without either of these cars and has Toyota failed to retain that which makes their badge so credible? Chime in below.

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    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    It's a German car built with German parts on a production line in Austria. It will undoubtedly have German-car problems as a result.

    The GT86, LF-A, and other Toyota collaborations historically were produced in Toyota facilities using Toyota parts, typically in Japan, and with other Japanese companies.
    The implication that there are any similarities between these two situations is profoundly ignorant. Stupid, really.

    Toyota has never before relied so heavily on another organization for vehicle production, and never before has that organization been BMW. Where Toyota has a legendary reputation for reliability and longevity, BMW's do not - especially their sports models. This is of grave concern when some of the most fantastic aspects of the A80 models were the reliability, ease of maintenance, modification, and overall longevity. There's a reason we've kept the A80's alive for all of these years.
    None of those aspects are historically present in contemporary BMW models. Many of BMW's most expensive //M models suffer from massive engineering flaws in critical and expensive powertrain components at young age and low mileage.
    This 'Supra' is a Toyota in name only.
    Everything else is BMW, and BMW's fucking suck. If a BMW replacement was acceptable for the Supra, Supra people would have all bought 335i's and 235i's a long time ago. There's a reason why BMW 6MT 335i's are $6-8k USD when TT 6MT Supras are 40k+.

    Toyota failed miserably to understand that it wasn't an I6 engine that was attractive, it was that it was a *Toyota* I6 that was massively over-engineered and incredibly reliable and strong, with ancillary components that were equally reliable and trouble-free.

    I would have much rather left the I6 layout for a V6 and kept the Toyota engineering, reliability, build quality, and longevity. I know I speak for a LOT of other Supra enthusiasts when I say that.

    I make a comfortable living, I have outstanding credit, and I haven't ever bought a new car because none of them excite me. I would have been delighted to make an A90 my first new car ever, if only it had been a 100% made-in-Japan Toyota Supra, and not a made-in-Austria-out-of-BMW's-second-rate-parts Supra.

    Toyota's bean counters, like so many other bean counters in other marques, have completely failed to notice that there's a shitload of enthusiasts that absolutely have the means to buy a $50-70k+ car, but do not because they find no value in the new cars available. When they do offer a car, it is lackluster, overpriced, and dealerships inevitably jack up the prices beyond MSRP. With the A90 Supra, we can add 'almost guaranteed to be unreliable' and 'vastly underpowered and inexplicably missing a manual transmission option' to that list of complications.

    It is sad, because the Supra name would have been better left with the A80 than see this unbelievably disappointing A90 come to light.
    Jeff
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    I Can Has EBT? shak's Avatar
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    No!

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    Blue Thunder $9ktt's Avatar
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    I'd rather they not called it a SUPRA at all. We would have been better off.

    And don't go the "RISKY ENDEAVOR" route....Nissan did it with the 350z AND the GTR to huge success !!! AND it's a SMALLER company. So your thinking is invalid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ismael View Post
    In my opinion, Supras are the right hand of god in the car world. Sent to put order when Mustangs and Camaros get wild. To bring justice when cocky Evo and Subaru drivers get out of hand. And to show bikers that two wheels are NOT faster than four!

  7. #5
    Anime Dork saiyajinimports's Avatar
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    Exactly if the motor was a V6 TT made by Toyota most if not all Supra fans would've been on board.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless View Post
    It's a German car built with German parts on a production line in Austria. It will undoubtedly have German-car problems as a result.

    The GT86, LF-A, and other Toyota collaborations historically were produced in Toyota facilities using Toyota parts, typically in Japan, and with other Japanese companies.
    The implication that there are any similarities between these two situations is profoundly ignorant. Stupid, really.

    Toyota has never before relied so heavily on another organization for vehicle production, and never before has that organization been BMW. Where Toyota has a legendary reputation for reliability and longevity, BMW's do not - especially their sports models. This is of grave concern when some of the most fantastic aspects of the A80 models were the reliability, ease of maintenance, modification, and overall longevity. There's a reason we've kept the A80's alive for all of these years.
    None of those aspects are historically present in contemporary BMW models. Many of BMW's most expensive //M models suffer from massive engineering flaws in critical and expensive powertrain components at young age and low mileage.
    This 'Supra' is a Toyota in name only.
    Everything else is BMW, and BMW's fucking suck. If a BMW replacement was acceptable for the Supra, Supra people would have all bought 335i's and 235i's a long time ago. There's a reason why BMW 6MT 335i's are $6-8k USD when TT 6MT Supras are 40k+.

    Toyota failed miserably to understand that it wasn't an I6 engine that was attractive, it was that it was a *Toyota* I6 that was massively over-engineered and incredibly reliable and strong, with ancillary components that were equally reliable and trouble-free.

    I would have much rather left the I6 layout for a V6 and kept the Toyota engineering, reliability, build quality, and longevity. I know I speak for a LOT of other Supra enthusiasts when I say that.

    I make a comfortable living, I have outstanding credit, and I haven't ever bought a new car because none of them excite me. I would have been delighted to make an A90 my first new car ever, if only it had been a 100% made-in-Japan Toyota Supra, and not a made-in-Austria-out-of-BMW's-second-rate-parts Supra.

    Toyota's bean counters, like so many other bean counters in other marques, have completely failed to notice that there's a shitload of enthusiasts that absolutely have the means to buy a $50-70k+ car, but do not because they find no value in the new cars available. When they do offer a car, it is lackluster, overpriced, and dealerships inevitably jack up the prices beyond MSRP. With the A90 Supra, we can add 'almost guaranteed to be unreliable' and 'vastly underpowered and inexplicably missing a manual transmission option' to that list of complications.

    It is sad, because the Supra name would have been better left with the A80 than see this unbelievably disappointing A90 come to light.
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    I suppose it was wise from an emissions stand point since BMW makes all ULEVs. Seeing how Europe is proposing more and more emission and safety laws, the components and electronics setup have been approved and need no further testing or patents pending. I'm still confused about the lack of another transmission option. And the interior and other components being all copied? It doesn't strike anyone as unique for a halo car....

  9. #7
    I Can Has EBT? shak's Avatar
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    Imagine the reception from Mustang crowd if they would have outsourced the newest model to Mercedes? Or a Vette build by VW?

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    SupraForums Member HotSoup's Avatar
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  11. #9
    I'm not serious
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    The mk5 owner is going to be that business professional who wanted to buy the z4 but didn't want to be too fancy in front of his coworkers. Hes in love with the supra name but doesn't know how to change a spark plug or change oil.
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    I Can Has EBT? shak's Avatar
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    Speaking of oil changes, is this thing going to require 9 quarts and cost $300?

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    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FasTTurbo View Post
    The mk5 owner is going to be that business professional who wanted to buy the z4 but didn't want to be too fancy in front of his coworkers. Hes in love with the supra name but doesn't know how to change a spark plug or change oil.
    This is exactly true. And he'll annoy the shit out of the two actual car guys in his office with 'car talk'.

    Quote Originally Posted by shak View Post
    Speaking of oil changes, is this thing going to require 9 quarts and cost $300?
    Don't forget the dealer-calibrated battery changes and lack of a dipstick.

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    Actual member since 2001. hgonzalez's Avatar
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    Can someone please explain to me why they just didn't get with Yamaha again? Its been proven to be 100% greatness... I dont get it...
    1997 Toyota Supra TT 6 spd BPU (FMIC/TTC) 18' Volk GT-N ~ 195k miles strong


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    Actual member since 2001. hgonzalez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shak View Post
    Speaking of oil changes, is this thing going to require 9 quarts and cost $300?
    My brother had to pay to have BMW program is Iphone to the radio... It wasn't cheap either. I don't recall the details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless View Post
    It's a German car built with German parts on a production line in Austria. It will undoubtedly have German-car problems as a result.

    The GT86, LF-A, and other Toyota collaborations historically were produced in Toyota facilities using Toyota parts, typically in Japan, and with other Japanese companies.
    The implication that there are any similarities between these two situations is profoundly ignorant. Stupid, really.

    It is sad, because the Supra name would have been better left with the A80 than see this unbelievably disappointing A90 come to light.
    Clipped for space.

    I really wish the OP would try to rebuttal, talk about murder.
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  17. #15
    i agree with what Wreckless said and from the start I always seen this new, so called Supra, as a way to test the waters. Much easier to cut a check for a white label product than to develop one entirely from scratch. Apparently they want to make an 86 successor into the real deal, if that goes through it might mean good things for an MKVI/A100 Supra but that's a long way out.

  18. #16
    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdeblancoo View Post
    ..... it might mean good things for an MKVI/A100 Supra but that's a long way out.
    I see this comment sometimes and wonder.
    I think if this car sells well, Toyota will not change anything except trivial cosmetic details and add 1 hp each year. I don't think they will change the BMW content - it will still be a BMW.
    If the car does not sell well, I think they will drop the whole thing, never to be seen again.
    But that is assuming Toyota cares either way.
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  19. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Supra View Post
    I see this comment sometimes and wonder.
    I think if this car sells well, Toyota will not change anything except trivial cosmetic details and add 1 hp each year. I don't think they will change the BMW content - it will still be a BMW.
    If the car does not sell well, I think they will drop the whole thing, never to be seen again.
    But that is assuming Toyota cares either way.

    This is quite possible especially as vehicles become more advanced and costs go up over the years. Our only hope then will be for Lexus to fill the void. Already the plans they have in order are impressive and unfolding well.

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    Nope, nope, and nope.

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  21. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1A1 View Post
    Nope, nope, and nope.

    Steve
    x10.

    What is with these guys, like the OP, ThatMKVGuy and, possibly, others starting threads and, then, going MIA because they cannot respond substantively to the comments made by the SF community. Why start the thread? Do you believe that, if you start another thread about, generally, the same topic that the comments will be different? What a waste of time.

    If Toyota was so interested in the input of the Supra community, it would have occurred long before the incredibly wrong-headed, point-of-no-return development decisions had been made. Allegedly, a survey of Supra owners was conducted by Tada. Do us all a favor, and provide a public service at the same time, by posting the survey form and results in this thread. I want to see the data that, according to Tada, indicate Supra owners prefer an auto over a manual transmission (and other nonsense that was spewed).

    The fact that Toyota is so surprised and disappointed by the Supra community's reaction to this car shows just how woefully out of touch its development team was. Not to be a Damn Yankee, but to be a Damn Yankee, America made the Supra what it has become over the years. In the U.S., it was private owners of street legal cars, shop cars, some race cars and everything in between that made the Supra what it is. This is not to diminish the Supras from Japanese owners and shops (mainly shops), but virtually every performance best you can throw a stick at is owned by someone in the USDM, the recent TX2K19 throwdown between Titan and Real Street being only the most recent example.

    Apparently, decisions were made that virtually ignored U.S. Supra owners even though it was the owners of these cars, through a legacy in which Toyota had no official role in establishing, that made the marketing of the MKV as a Supra even possible. So, to come in here and ask questions that should have been asked long before the actual car was developed is highly insulting. Toyota could have saved itself a lot of money and heartache if the "survey" referenced by Tada had asked the simple question, "Should Toyota build and sell a fifth-generation Supra that would be 100% BMW with no manual transmission option?" Instead it bobbed, weaved, dissembled and tried to convince us that 335 bhp and no manual option is what Supra owners craved.

    Take a look at the pic below and tell me what's wrong with it:




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    Quote Originally Posted by KenHenderson View Post
    Take a look at the pic below and tell me what's wrong with it:




    Ken.
    Are their window blinds.... ON THE OUTSIDE?!?

    I wonder if those three guys in the background were offered a chance to be in the picture but wouldn’t because they didn’t want to be associated with the Zupr4. Why didn’t camera guy just crop them out....? Is he as lazy as Toyota?

  23. #21
    SupraForums Member HotSoup's Avatar
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    ^^^ the pic shows 3 Supra owners....

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  25. #23
    keep livin man, L I V I N Casey James's Avatar
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    To answer the question, Absolutely not!

    And can we please stop replying to these topics as a protest? Or do we just keep saying the same thing over and over in every thread that we do not agree with anything about the MKV? Quite frankly, I’m tired of seeing these started and no rebuttal by the OP’s.

    I dunno, I’m about to change my license plate on my MKIV to “REALMKV”...
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  26. #24
    Twin Meister
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotSoup View Post
    ^^^ the pic shows 3 Supra owners....
    Plus the fact that everyone, but the 3 Supra owners, is wearing a BMW jacket/vest/pullover, etc. Telling.


    Ken.

  27. #25
    Buddy thought I had a NA NashMan's Avatar
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    The car will never be accepted and will fail the 350z nissmo is still cheaper and makes more power and I bet handles better
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