Why Did Toyota Wait So Long To Unveil A New Supra?

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    Why Did Toyota Wait So Long To Unveil A New Supra?


    Tetsuya Tada, Chief Engineer of the new Supra, apologized for the 15 year wait, suggesting to Drive (an Australian publication) that a BMW partnership presented the "perfect opportunity" and avoided compromises that came with using existing in-house platforms.

    Vague feedback was given on the nearly two decade long wait. Tada wished Toyota "could have brought a new Supra back much earlier" and said they're sorry that "it's been 15 long years."

    Reviving the Supra began back in 2012, after Tada got pulled away from a GT86 press event for a meeting in Germany. Here the idea for shared development of the Z4 and A90 Supra was proposed. Following this was the Calty designed FT-1 concept that made its public debut at the 2014 North American International Auto Show. Images of various test mules, an official Supra title trademark (2017), GR Supra Racing Concept and information leaks would confirm the Supra's return.

    As for Tada, his background includes mentorship from Isao Tsuzuki (MKIV Supra Chief Engineer) that he consulted over development of the GT86, the only rear-wheel-drive vehicle in his portfolio.

    Reveal of the new Supra concept under his control was said to usher in the "most capable, most exciting generation of vehicles" Toyota has produced since inception.

    Its a bold statement that we hope translates into future Supra model years that make this 15+ year wait worth it. Not being a true Toyota product like the JZA80 and showing clear hallmarks of the BMW it shares a platform with didn't help, especially when every moment behind the wheel will remind you.

    As for the future, when questioned about a possible manual transmission option, in statement he pointed out that Supra "fans don’t think it’s a huge requirement," and in another saying its "if the demand is there."

    Understandably, Tada needs to make sound business moves but, if he's to make this Supra part of the "most exciting generation of vehicles" then giving fans more of what they want is non-negotiable.
    Last edited by Toyota Supra News; 04-02-2019 at 03:13 PM.

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    Kappa Check 1 2 Kidney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyota Supra News View Post
    As for the future, when questioned about a possible manual transmission option, in statement he pointed out that Supra "fans donít think itís a huge requirement,".
    Curious which "fans" he's referencing, because fans have made it perfectly clear.

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    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyota Supra News View Post
    ... a BMW partnership presented the "perfect opportunity" and avoided compromises that came with using existing in-house platforms....
    I can't help but question Mr. Tada's grip on reality. Either he's insane or he's surrounded by sycophants that keep him insulated from reality if he's capable of believing this and also believing that a manual trans option wasn't a huge requirement.
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    Who would have ever thought.....the impact an automobile can make.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyota Supra News View Post
    Reveal of the new Supra concept under his control was said to usher in the "most capable, most exciting generation of vehicles" Toyota has produced since inception.
    Yet, Toyota has NOT produced the MKV, BMW did.
    Toyota changed the exhaust-manifold, tinkered with the tune and suspension and made the interior even worse than the Z4's. That's about it. Hardly "producing" the car.

    fans don’t think it’s a huge requirement
    Straight-up a lie.


    This is probably the most disgraceful article I've read.
    Last edited by CFTISupra; 04-02-2019 at 03:25 PM.

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    So they commission a guy who has been building boring commuter cars, some failures, to then take on a project that the complete opposite of what he worked on all these years?

    Yep... sounds like a great plan to me. The FR-S isn't anything to brag about either, so how was that even graduate him to this spot?

    Don't we see something wrong here LOL

    I wish the april fools joke about him being arrested was true ----> http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/news...o-prosecutors/
    Last edited by gdeblancoo; 04-02-2019 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CFTISupra View Post
    Straight-up a lie.


    This is probably the most disgraceful article I've read.
    Which is why I posted this in another thread (responding to a post Wreckless had made):

    Quote Originally Posted by KenHenderson View Post
    Quoted for emphasis.

    I feel strongly that Tada was deliberately misleading and outright lied about a survey of Supra owners that, allegedly, looked askance at a manual transmission for the MKV Supra. We were suppose to bite on the fact that he owned a 600 bhp MKIV and his teasing comments about the MKV continuing the legacy of the MKIV. I bit because, truthfully, I never imagined Toyota would 100% bastardize its most iconic car. Initially, I felt Silver Supra, 1A1, evolved, Skyline-GTR and others were judging the car too harshly. I was wrong. They were right.

    I don't have a MKI, but I have a MKII, a MKIII and a couple MKIVs. I drive them all, and you can just feel the Supra DNA in all of them, with each car being a quantum leap ahead of its immediate predecessor, but still top notch in their own right. Very high quality, bank vault solidness, incredible reliability and durability and quintessentially Japanese.

    Think about this for a moment. Toyota made business cases for 6MTs in the 86, the latest generation Corolla, the Tacoma X-Runner and the GRMN Yaris, IIRC, but refuses to include a 6MT in the MKV Supra!! Are you kidding me? Now, it says a manual may be offered "if demand is there". Just how does one go about ascertaining demand when a manual transmission is not even offered? This "if the demand is there" statement, IMO, is another lie on multiple levels. First, it implies that the "demand" was there for the auto-only variant and even my LSD-imbibing college friends wouldn't believe that. Second, I call complete unadulterated BS on Tada's "survey" of current Supra owners. You know, the survey where we told him we believe the auto tranny is the way to the Promised Land. Third, we are to assume that Corolla, Tacoma, 86 and Yaris owners love the 6MT more than we do.

    So yeah, as Wreckless alluded to, I believe it was was deliberate and malicious and I am not using these terms casually. If you track back through Tada's comments on the 86, especially as it relates to power, and the fact the car was suppose to contain real, honest to God Toyota DNA, you will find his comments astonishingly similar to the drivel he continually spewed out about the MKV "Supra".

    P.S. Don't even get me started about 335 hp. Toyota, and the ill-informed, quote the 0-60 of 4.1 seconds as superior to the MKIV. While this is true, and what one would expect from an auto-equipped car, it only makes the MKV quicker to 60 than the MKIV, but not faster overall. When Toyota quotes a quarter-mile time that is superior to [email protected] mph, we'll be closer to an apples-to-apples comparison.... but still not all the way there because of the lack of a manual transmission.


    Ken.
    The 15-year hiatus cited in the OP only applied to Japan. In the U.S., the car's largest market, it was 21 LONG years. Akio Toyoda should have brought Isao Tsuzuki, the MKIV's chief engineer, out of retirement, rather than selecting Tada with the FR-S being his only rwd credit prior to assuming the chief engineering role for the MKV. One would think that being a 600 bhp MKIV Supra owner, Tada would have intrinsically understood what it would take to build a legitimate, spiritual successor to the MKIV. Sadly, he was absolutely the wrong choice for this most important job and the entire Supra community is the poorer for it.


    Ken.
    Last edited by Wreckless; 04-03-2019 at 10:47 AM. Reason: fixed embedded quote code
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    all of the media and toyota talk like this car was built for the supra enthusiast.

    In reality... at a corporate level, i dont think toyota cares.
    they saw an opportunity to save millions in R&D, building a car from the ground up... and just rebadged another car as a supra.

    this was simple $$'s on a spread sheet.

    is what it is.

    hopefully nissan doesnt do the same thing when a new GTR roles out.

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    SupraForums Member Crocket's Avatar
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    I'm starting to see a scary future for Toyota. They got to where they are today by being the best at building high quality/reliable cars. But this new trend of outsourcing their vehicles to other manufacturers (FR-S, Supra and Yaris) one can't help but wonder what's next? I suspect their high volume bread and butter cars like the Corolla, Camry, Prius will always be safe, but their lower volume niche/fun cars all seem at risk now. Next gen MR2/Celica will undoubtedly be another casualty of outsourcing. I know on the T4R Forums they are anxiously waiting for to the 6th gen 4Runner to come out. I can't imagine the shit storm that will ensue over there if Toyota should do something stupid like join with Chevy, Ford or Nissan for it.....? In another car generation or 2 I am wondering how many Toyotas will actually be Toyotas still?

    Gotta say, I have always been a stalwart Toyota fan ever since I was a kid. They could do no wrong in my eyes. But for the first time in 30+ years my affinity for the brand is actually starting to waiver. Never thought the day would come when I was actually becoming more interested in other brands and.........gulp..........develop a disdain for Toyota. Scary times indeed.....
    Last edited by Crocket; 04-03-2019 at 06:46 AM.
    TBD

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    They've certainly made a lot of assumptions about Toyota loyalists and Supra fans in general, which they could have easily looked to for feedback prior to releasing this car. I think the delay was because they knew expectations were high, as a result of their own 'hype' they've been trying to build over the years.

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    Mr. 2JZUL8R Nick S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saleeka View Post
    They've certainly made a lot of assumptions about Toyota loyalists and Supra fans in general, which they could have easily looked to for feedback prior to releasing this car. I think the delay was because they knew expectations were high, as a result of their own 'hype' they've been trying to build over the years.
    Toyota did look for feedback. In private invite locations here in socal among other ways even Ken has mentioned in previous threads. There was one event I was invited to along with 50 or so other large socal Toyota enthusiasts/movers and shakers of the industry (most Supra owners) called "Shaping the Supra" a few years ago and it was 100% clear what we wanted: Inline 6, turbo, manual. We were allowed to talk to Tada but were given next to no feedback, translation barrier aside. Though at this time it was made clear to me that the car was already in test phase (not knowing the BMW venture though was hinted at being not what would be accepted) and this "Shaping the Supra" thing was just to build hype and give Tada pats on the back.

    Here we are today.

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    Thinking about this some more...
    Looking at the vehicles Toyota sold from the time the Supra stopped selling till the last few years, they have largely targeted regular consumers, the bread and butter of the business. Deviating from that to target a small segment of buyers can be discouraging.
    But if you're going to create a product, at least do it right, especially when flush with cash like Toyota is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick S. View Post
    Toyota did look for feedback. In private invite locations here in socal among other ways even Ken has mentioned in previous threads. There was one event I was invited to along with 50 or so other large socal Toyota enthusiasts/movers and shakers of the industry (most Supra owners) called "Shaping the Supra" a few years ago and it was 100% clear what we wanted: Inline 6, turbo, manual. We were allowed to talk to Tada but were given next to no feedback, translation barrier aside. Though at this time it was made clear to me that the car was already in test phase (not knowing the BMW venture though was hinted at being not what would be accepted) and this "Shaping the Supra" thing was just to build hype and give Tada pats on the back.

    Here we are today.
    Interesting that they got that kind of feedback prior to design/build and the end product is what we have now. I have no proof but I think when the design team went to the board they probably had an in house design on whole car, motor etc...and all but the estimated price was shot down and the partnership was the option or nothing at all.

    Guess we will never know. I would like to know what their target market buyers types are though.

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    Considering the project was well underway when that industry meeting went down, my guess is they did it to tweak the Z4 parts bin stuff just enough to barely qualify it as a 'supra'.

    Its the cheapest form of research that only has upsides when it comes to marketing. However my guess is we'll see a different mindset in that of MKV owners from other gens.

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    I did not know that Toyota did that kind of market research and its worrisome that even with that feedback, this is the end product. The BMW partnership makes sense financially but they must have anticipated what the blowback would be with regards to reliability and tuning.

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    Tada San had an opportunity to work on the next gen Supra back in 97. He was finally given redemption to lead with the GT86 as well as the MKV and this is what he brought to the table...


    ďSuzuki-san was doing the A80 Supra and invited me to join his team,Ē Tada told us over dinner, through an interpreter. ďI got excited because I knew that meant Iíd be working on the next Supra. That was in 1997ÖĒ

    Tada laughs hard at this once-painful memory. ďThat was exactly when Toyota began shedding cars like the Supra, cars with small margins. The Supra project was suspended almost as soon as I joined.Ē

    Yes, there was supposed to be another Supra. Take a moment and allow yourself to feel those emotions and work through them. Iíll be here when youíre ready.
    Anyway, Tada was given a humble people carrier, the Toyota Raum mini-minivan, to work on.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RRnold View Post
    Tada San had an opportunity to work on the next gen Supra back in 97. He was finally given redemption to lead with the GT86 as well as the MKV and this is what he brought to the table...


    “Suzuki-san was doing the A80 Supra and invited me to join his team,” Tada told us over dinner, through an interpreter. “I got excited because I knew that meant I’d be working on the next Supra. That was in 1997…”

    Tada laughs hard at this once-painful memory. “That was exactly when Toyota began shedding cars like the Supra, cars with small margins. The Supra project was suspended almost as soon as I joined.”

    Yes, there was supposed to be another Supra. Take a moment and allow yourself to feel those emotions and work through them. I’ll be here when you’re ready.
    Anyway, Tada was given a humble people carrier, the Toyota Raum mini-minivan, to work on.


    https://jalopnik.com/toyota-s-perfor...pra-1829125702
    If Toyota had a point to prove like they did with the LFA, taking 10 years to develop and god knows how much money, then the MKV would have been a hit.
    What we're left with is essentially Lexus as the shiny object most everyone wants, but can't have, so whats next? This turd.

    The same thing plays out in many other industries we all interact with every day; food, technology, you name it.

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    SUPRAS FOR LIFE jdmuscle's Avatar
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    I understand the pain people have in comprehending what has come to us in the name of a supra sequel. Being a long term Supra owner Iím with you. However I donít blame Tada one bit for this.. I really think his hands were tied and he did the best he was able to do with what was provided to him.

    Itís the bean counters over at Toyota that we should really be angry with.. not the person that tried to do the name plate as much justice as possible. As for the 86/FRS/BRZ... people that donít understand that car are the only ones that complain about it. I was one of those until I drove it, car is well balanced and a simple tune will fix the torque dip that results in the lack of power in mid range.

    As for the MKV Supra.. it was Toyota USA that really wanted all the fake garbage vents to make it similar to the FT1, per some of the sources over at MKV forums. If they throw a manual in it, I think theyíll almost satisfy a lot of the negative press on the car but given Toyotaís track record I donít see it happening. Will this car sell? I think it will.. lots of folks that couldnít get their hands on a JZA80.. either due to it being an old car with new car prices or just didnít want an old car will be getting one of these. Just like the R35, once the initial rush is done the cars will start celebrating birthdays at the dealerships. Thatís when Iíll be interested to see how Toyota will handle the model.. will they try to spice it up or drop it like they did back in 98 is the question that remains.

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    I saw the car up close at the DC auto show. IMO, I love the exterior. I know thats not a popular opinion on this board but thats ok. In a few years time I am hopeful the fake vents become functional and we get a stick.

    The car is going to sell, by what volume remains to be seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdmuscle View Post
    I understand the pain people have in comprehending what has come to us in the name of a supra sequel. Being a long term Supra owner I’m with you. However I don’t blame Tada one bit for this.. I really think his hands were tied and he did the best he was able to do with what was provided to him.

    It’s the bean counters over at Toyota that we should really be angry with.. not the person that tried to do the name plate as much justice as possible. As for the 86/FRS/BRZ... people that don’t understand that car are the only ones that complain about it. I was one of those until I drove it, car is well balanced and a simple tune will fix the torque dip that results in the lack of power in mid range.

    As for the MKV Supra.. it was Toyota USA that really wanted all the fake garbage vents to make it similar to the FT1, per some of the sources over at MKV forums. If they throw a manual in it, I think they’ll almost satisfy a lot of the negative press on the car but given Toyota’s track record I don’t see it happening. Will this car sell? I think it will.. lots of folks that couldn’t get their hands on a JZA80.. either due to it being an old car with new car prices or just didn’t want an old car will be getting one of these. Just like the R35, once the initial rush is done the cars will start celebrating birthdays at the dealerships. That’s when I’ll be interested to see how Toyota will handle the model.. will they try to spice it up or drop it like they did back in 98 is the question that remains.
    i think this is a great assessment...

    as sells stall, they will spice it up.

    i somewhat like the car... but no way i would ever buy it with all the bmw drive train.

    i hate working on bmw's

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    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdmuscle View Post
    ....... That’s when I’ll be interested to see how Toyota will handle the model.. will they try to spice it up or drop it like they did back in 98 is the question that remains.
    I think there is a <1% chance that Toyota will change anything other than trim or very minor things at any point in the future - at least anything that does not change on the Z4.
    Toyota sold out to BMW - taking what BMW would give them. That is why this car has less HP - BMW would not allow Toyota to compete with, or 1-up, the Z4.
    I think Toyota is squeezed into a tiny back seat in this deal and would not/could not change much of consequence.
    We will have to wait and see, but I don't see anything good in the future for the Supra - ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdmuscle View Post
    I understand the pain people have in comprehending what has come to us in the name of a supra sequel. Being a long term Supra owner Iím with you. However I donít blame Tada one bit for this.. I really think his hands were tied and he did the best he was able to do with what was provided to him.
    Respectfully disagree. Bean counters are a fact of life, but there were not a lot of beans to count when BMW was doing all of the heavy lifting. Tada is the chief engineer for this car. Chief engineers and bean counters are natural enemies, but the bean counters didn't tell him to design a car with a wheel base 4-inches less than the FR-S and implement a host of other wrong-headed vehicle development decisions. Track back through all of his public comments and vids and let me know if you, or anyone else for that matter, saw this car coming. When he wasn't dissembling, he was teasing the MKIV legacy and when he wasn't teasing, he was all about misdirection.

    Toyota had to know the OG Supra community (MKI-MKIV) would have howled like mad men (and women) if Tada had been honest and more forthcoming about the MKV Supra. Take a look at the C8 Corvette in comparison. Other than the car being mid-engine, would-be buyers already know the base car will have 500 bhp and that Z06, ZR-1 and hybrid versions are coming as well, with the hybrid car to make upwards of 1,000 bhp. BTW, the base 'Vette pricing is definitely in the same ballpark as the Supra.

    The guy that was painted into a corner was the chief designer, and Tada-san did him no favors either. Those holding out hope for future changes will be left wanting, IMO. Such changes would, inevitably, make the car pricier, which defeats the whole purpose of Toyota's money-saving, design-to-a- $50k-threshold BS approach to the MKV Supra.


    Ken.

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    SUPRAS FOR LIFE jdmuscle's Avatar
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    Ken, somethings that helped me even digest the existence of this car...

    1) it was not made to attract previous Supra enthusiast like us.
    2) it was made to change Toyota’s brand image as a sporty car company .. cheapest way possible
    3) it maybe a decent sports car but I agree it’s a terrible Supra
    4) Toyota doesn’t care about the Supra’s legacy
    5) JZA80 will remain as the last Toyota made Supra forever

    There wouldn’t be such negativity towards this car if they only named it something else. Coming to Tada, I believe he was in a rock and hard place... let me explain. Challenges of dealing with the stringent bean counters on the Toyota side and adamant BMW engineers that really didn’t credit Toyota’s anything when it comes to making sports car. Could this car be a better vehicle.. absolutely, but here we are and there isn’t anything we can do to change it. Am I or you going to buy it.. absolutely not.

    If you drove it.. would you enjoy it? Possible.. but for me a manual is a must to really enjoy a sports car.

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