Why Did Toyota Wait So Long To Unveil A New Supra? - Page 2

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Thread: Why Did Toyota Wait So Long To Unveil A New Supra?

  1. #26
    JetFire Blakbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdmuscle View Post
    Ken, somethings that helped me even digest the existence of this car...

    1) it was not made to attract previous Supra enthusiast like us.
    2) it was made to change Toyota’s brand image as a sporty car company .. cheapest way possible
    3) it maybe a decent sports car but I agree it’s a terrible Supra
    4) Toyota doesn’t care about the Supra’s legacy
    5) JZA80 will remain as the last Toyota made Supra forever

    There wouldn’t be such negativity towards this car if they only named it something else. Coming to Tada, I believe he was in a rock and hard place... let me explain. Challenges of dealing with the stringent bean counters on the Toyota side and adamant BMW engineers that really didn’t credit Toyota’s anything when it comes to making sports car. Could this car be a better vehicle.. absolutely, but here we are and there isn’t anything we can do to change it. Am I or you going to buy it.. absolutely not.

    If you drove it.. would you enjoy it? Possible.. but for me a manual is a must to really enjoy a sports car.
    I agree with those points made even though they "consulted" with current MKIV owners we weren't the target buyer. The only thing they did was have a RWD Inline 6 turbo which is only similarity to MKIV and yes they wanted to do it as cheap as possible. I personally think it's a great opportunity for the aftermarket as I'm sure they will all push it to the limits and may even improve on some of the issues and whoever buys them will have some options. Time will tell how it does in short and long run in terms of sales and reliability.
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  3. #27
    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenHenderson View Post
    Respectfully disagree. Bean counters are a fact of life, but there were not a lot of beans to count when BMW was doing all of the heavy lifting. Tada is the chief engineer for this car. Chief engineers and bean counters are natural enemies, but the bean counters didn't tell him to design a car with a wheel base 4-inches less than the FR-S and implement a host of other wrong-headed vehicle development decisions. Track back through all of his public comments and vids and let me know if you, or anyone else for that matter, saw this car coming. When he wasn't dissembling, he was teasing the MKIV legacy and when he wasn't teasing, he was all about misdirection.

    Toyota had to know the OG Supra community (MKI-MKIV) would have howled like mad men (and women) if Tada had been honest and more forthcoming about the MKV Supra. Take a look at the C8 Corvette in comparison. Other than the car being mid-engine, would-be buyers already know the base car will have 500 bhp and that Z06, ZR-1 and hybrid versions are coming as well, with the hybrid car to make upwards of 1,000 bhp. BTW, the base 'Vette pricing is definitely in the same ballpark as the Supra.

    The guy that was painted into a corner was the chief designer, and Tada-san did him no favors either. Those holding out hope for future changes will be left wanting, IMO. Such changes would, inevitably, make the car pricier, which defeats the whole purpose of Toyota's money-saving, design-to-a- $50k-threshold BS approach to the MKV Supra.


    Ken.
    Ken, you nailed it as usual.

    But I've been pondering this whole assumption that a 100%-Toyota new Supra will somehow be vastly more than $50k. The more I think about it, the less I agree with that.
    I believe the BMW involvement and underlying assumption that the BMW I6 and platform is what made such a mediocre vehicle a $50k car.

    BMW's *base* pricing for a 2, 3, or 4 series with a turbo I6 under the hood is mid 40's at the cheapest - and options stack up FAST on those cars. And that's for the Mc330hp version of those engines.

    Meanwhile,
    Toyota and Subaru have no problem building a GT86 at a profit with entry pricing in the high 20k range and nicely optioned in the low 30k range.
    Subaru WRX's are mid-high 20's and nicely optioned STI's are high 30's low 40's.
    Nissan 370Z's start at low 30's, and spending high 40's gets you an all-in fully loaded 350hp Nismo edition.
    Lexus RC's start in the low 40's with a GR series V6.
    Nevermind how Mustangs and Camaros easily deliver 400+hp and a 6MT with big brakes for mid-30's.


    There is absolutely no real reason that Toyota couldn't make an RC based MK5 Supra with a manual trans and hit the $50k price range. They could easily have had a high 30's low 40's 'SZ' with the turbo I4 or an NA V6 sourced from the IS or RC. They could have offered a turbocharged GR series V6 with an MT and been in the high 40's to mid 50's no problem - and that'd match or beat the current gen Vettes, etc with aplomb. All of which would frame up nicely with the existing GT86 offering.

    So at the end of the day, Toyota simply chose not to. Why they chose not to is a mystery. Maybe they used the I6 as an excuse to partner with BMW. Maybe that co-development got too obsessed with 'new' and the co-development idea of brand newy-new-new shit appealed too much to higher corporate vs building a proper sports car out of an already excellent luxury coupe platform they've already developed.

    I'm counting these beans, and all I see is that BMW's involvement made this 335hp MK5 6-10k more expensive than an equivalent Toyota would have been if based on the RC. The single and only benefit was the turbocharged I6. Absolutely everything else is worse for it.
    Jeff
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  4. #28
    Anime Dork saiyajinimports's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless View Post
    Ken, you nailed it as usual.

    But I've been pondering this whole assumption that a 100%-Toyota new Supra will somehow be vastly more than $50k. The more I think about it, the less I agree with that.
    I believe the BMW involvement and underlying assumption that the BMW I6 and platform is what made such a mediocre vehicle a $50k car.

    BMW's *base* pricing for a 2, 3, or 4 series with a turbo I6 under the hood is mid 40's at the cheapest - and options stack up FAST on those cars. And that's for the Mc330hp version of those engines.

    Meanwhile,
    Toyota and Subaru have no problem building a GT86 at a profit with entry pricing in the high 20k range and nicely optioned in the low 30k range.
    Subaru WRX's are mid-high 20's and nicely optioned STI's are high 30's low 40's.
    Nissan 370Z's start at low 30's, and spending high 40's gets you an all-in fully loaded 350hp Nismo edition.
    Lexus RC's start in the low 40's with a GR series V6.
    Nevermind how Mustangs and Camaros easily deliver 400+hp and a 6MT with big brakes for mid-30's.


    There is absolutely no real reason that Toyota couldn't make an RC based MK5 Supra with a manual trans and hit the $50k price range. They could easily have had a high 30's low 40's 'SZ' with the turbo I4 or an NA V6 sourced from the IS or RC. They could have offered a turbocharged GR series V6 with an MT and been in the high 40's to mid 50's no problem - and that'd match or beat the current gen Vettes, etc with aplomb. All of which would frame up nicely with the existing GT86 offering.

    So at the end of the day, Toyota simply chose not to. Why they chose not to is a mystery. Maybe they used the I6 as an excuse to partner with BMW. Maybe that co-development got too obsessed with 'new' and the co-development idea of brand newy-new-new shit appealed too much to higher corporate vs building a proper sports car out of an already excellent luxury coupe platform they've already developed.

    I'm counting these beans, and all I see is that BMW's involvement made this 335hp MK5 6-10k more expensive than an equivalent Toyota would have been if based on the RC. The single and only benefit was the turbocharged I6. Absolutely everything else is worse for it.
    I'm with you Toyota definitely could've built this car. Its not like they didn't have motor options within there own line up to choose from and they could easily based the body on the RC or even a modified version of the 86. For me the motor options could've been any of the Turbo 4 cylinders they have for a base model car or even the new Camry V6 and for the top end Supra i would've liked to seen the TT V6 out of the new LS500. That could've been a great engine to start with as well. The manual option not sure how that would've worked out it would've been nice but i think the trans out of the LFA or some variation of it would've been good as well.
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