Can the MK4 beat the MK5 on a race track?

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Thread: Can the MK4 beat the MK5 on a race track?

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    Can the MK4 beat the MK5 on a race track?


    Toyota is confident the MK5 Supra will easily achieve a 7:40 lap time on the Nurburgring. That’s 15-seconds faster than the new BMW Z4 and well ahead of the MK4 Supra. Estimates put it around the mid 8-second range.

    As the MK5 Supra roll out is in full swing, we’ll learn how its lap times compare on other tracks like the Fuji Speedway, Tsukuba and Laguna Seca. Ultimately, another benchmark to gauge how good of a successor the MK5 is (and there are many). Performance specs are close but separated by some key characteristics that give it an advantage. The B58’s beefier powerband being one of them.

    Disadvantages from all the BMW parts sharing and other possible flaws brought on by this partnership, will also come to light with enough testing. Which can later be followed up with the abundance of aftermarket options we’re expecting to follow. So far the chassis has been highly praised under both street and track testing, mostly by automotive publications.

    Comparing both models in factory spec, the MK5 will be superior in nearly every way, over 20 years separate them. It's part of the business model.

    Although, the MK4 does remain unmatched as you move beyond numbers and are reminded its platform. Something the MK5 will never be but exists today because of its legendary predecessor.
    Last edited by Toyota Supra News; 05-13-2019 at 07:11 AM.

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    JetFire Blakbird's Avatar
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    Stock for stock sure the MKV will be better than MKIV as it has better tech etc from the last 20 years....I don't think anyone here regardless if they like/hate the MKV will doubt that.
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    Blue Thunder $9ktt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakbird View Post
    Stock for stock sure the MKV will be better than MKIV as it has better tech etc from the last 20 years....I don't think anyone here regardless if they like/hate the MKV will doubt that.
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    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakbird View Post
    Stock for stock sure the MKV will be better than MKIV as it has better tech etc from the last 20 years....I don't think anyone here regardless if they like/hate the MKV will doubt that.
    This.

    Put the MK4 on modern tires with modern brake pads, though, and that gap would be embarrassingly close considering the 25+ year difference in development.
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    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
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    Well, it is not better than the average MKIV of today. Yes - stock for stock - EVERY CAR IN THE UNIVERSE is better than their predecessor from 1993 (if they had one). Question is - Is the car 17 years better?
    For this car - Hell no.
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    Stock vs stock will it stop as quick as the MKIV?
    Last edited by Ben_R; 05-13-2019 at 11:18 AM.

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    Its not so much about who wins or what wins, it's about the experience... Shifting for one that's an experience of course the MKV automatic Transmission will be faster than a Getrag V160 but what would you prefer to experience?
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    SupraForums Member awegrzyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_R View Post
    Stock vs stock will it stop as quick as the MKIV?
    Good question. I doubt it.

    MK4 is not suppose to beat MK5 on the track. It was a GT car, not even build for a race track.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless View Post
    This.

    Put the MK4 on modern tires with modern brake pads, though, and that gap would be embarrassingly close considering the 25+ year difference in development.

    Agreed. The single biggest factor would be modern tires.
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    Answer: Probably.
    But will it beat modern cars in its price range like the Camaro 1LE or Mustang GT350? Nope.
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  13. #11
    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awegrzyn View Post
    Good question. I doubt it.

    MK4 is not suppose to beat MK5 on the track. It was a GT car, not even build for a race track.
    That is horse shit. Utter fucking stinky parroted fucking horse shit.

    4.x second 0-60 times with record-setting brakes that took the Carerra fucking GT to beat is not a fucking 'GT' car. Whatever the fuck that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Bush View Post
    Agreed. The single biggest factor would be modern tires.
    Indeed. Also, considering how many bone stock 6MT TT Supras have made 290-310whp, too, I suspect that the Zupra may not run away from a MK4 on the straights as much as some seem to think...

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    Given the fact, Toyota had the 86 on hand at Summit Point Raceway rather than the immediate predecessor of the car being reviewed, it makes me wonder about how the MKV would compare to the MKIV in such an apples to apples comparison (with modern tires). It's as though Toyota didn't even want the question asked, as it surely would have been, if a MKIV was on the premises.

    Wreckless and I were talking today and I told him that if Motor Trend and its hot shoe driver, Randy Pobst, wanted to conduct such an apples to apples comparison, allowing for my Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires, I would lend my anthracite hard top to such a truth-seeking mission. Pobst has been doing similar driving comparisons for MT for years.

    As Silver Supra indicated, any performance difference between the MKIV and the MKV that did not fully reflect 17-years of development would not bode well for the MKV and Lord help us all if the MKIV, by chance out performed the MKV.


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    SupraForums Member awegrzyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless View Post
    That is horse shit. Utter fucking stinky parroted fucking horse shit.

    4.x second 0-60 times with record-setting brakes that took the Carerra fucking GT to beat is not a fucking 'GT' car. Whatever the fuck that is.
    You need to learn how to read. I said I doubt it could stop as good as MKIV.

    But as far as racing goes, on paper MKV would smoke the MKIV. Assuming same tires/pads/brake fluid.

    MKV has:

    1. Stiffer Chassis
    2. Wider
    3. Bigger tires
    4. Shorter wheelbase
    5. Better weight distribution
    6. Lower center of gravity
    7. Sports Mode
    8. More Torque
    9. Power band suited more for average track.
    10. Way better traction control.

    MKIV has:
    1. Faster transmission (probably)
    2. Top end for long straights
    3. Awesome brakes
    4. Maybe more downforce
    5. Useless traction control for the track.

    MKIV would do better at Daytona, LimeRock and Le Mans

    Yeah, give it to Randy, he is always looking for rides.
    Last edited by awegrzyn; 05-14-2019 at 01:30 AM.

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    NiSmO [email protected] supergoji's Avatar
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    I would donate to make this happen.
    1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, 0-100-0, 70-0, 60-130, track test.
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    Let's not kid ourselves, the MKIV Supra was a great tuner's car and straight line monster, but not great around the track.

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    NiSmO [email protected] supergoji's Avatar
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    Supra RZ 1:06.75
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    I'd say that's good company.

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    Wheel Whore SupraWillis's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=reyoasian;13884145]Let's not kid ourselves, the MKIV Supra was a great tuner's car and straight-line monster, but not great around the track.[/QUOTE}

    For science, one year I took my 94 6-speed to a local track along with my Lotus. Same day, Lotus had track tires and the Supra had RE71's. I was 5+ seconds faster in the Supra. People who say that these are straight line cars make me

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    I’d love to see Ken’s bpu hardtop on a proper big track against an mkv
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    The supra was never a race track(circuit racing) champion by any means.

    Short lived life in LE Mans, finished poorly one year then did not finish the following year and that was the end of it's chapter. I believe the years were 95 and 96.

    IMSA = same thing , non existent. WSC series specifically.

    i am aware of some SCCA achievements with heavily modified mk4's( within recent time) but again, isn't much in the professional racing world / history. What you can do to a car in 2019 isn't the same as what it did during its production run.

    Toyota has always invested more in prototypes and i don't recall the 2jz ever being used by Toyota's racing development teams in any professional racing series (not japan related).

    Not too sure about the jap world races(i really never cared much for them and don't much other than sklyines dominating a lot of them)

    I would be extremely surprised if you slapped on equal tires on both vehicles, that the mk4 would be within 2 seconds or quicker than the mk5, let alone win on any decent circuit.

    This is strictly on the subject of circuit racing, stock for stock(excluding tires) and nothing more between the two vehicles. The supra can be prepped to be a decent lapping car, but lets not hold it up too much higher than that. Its not the beginning and ending car in all race world aspects, as much as some would like it to be.

    1/4 mile, power capabilities etc is not what i am entertaining with this.

  22. #20
    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awegrzyn View Post
    You need to learn how to read. I said I doubt it could stop as good as MKIV.
    You said the MKIV is a GT car. I said that is bullshit. I gave reasons why it's bullshit.

    Unless you meant to say the MKV is a GT car in which case I'm even more confused considering how tiny the fucking thing is.


    Quote Originally Posted by awegrzyn View Post

    But as far as racing goes, on paper MKV would smoke the MKIV. Assuming same tires/pads/brake fluid.

    MKV has:

    1. Stiffer Chassis - good, but doesn't mean faster
    2. Wider - good, but there's lots of fast narrow cars
    3. Bigger tires - by a smidge
    4. Shorter wheelbase - doesn't mean faster
    5. Better weight distribution - possible advantage
    6. Lower center of gravity - probably an advantage
    7. Sports Mode - the MKIV is always in 'sport mode'.
    8. More Torque - Advantage MKV
    9. Power band suited more for average track. - Debateable. On stock sequential twins it's not difficult to keep it in power, especially with the 6MT. TTC or big single yes
    10. Way better traction control. - The MKIV's traction control is a feature in name only, so that's a clear advantage assuming the driver is a hotshoe and not a noob. The MK4's ABS is phenomenal which is the most critical 'traction control' feature IMHO.

    MKIV has:
    1. Faster transmission (probably) - The MKV's 8 spd auto and broad torque band would make it much more forgiving of mistakes/dropped revs/etc, so the trans advantage may be to the MKV
    2. Top end for long straights
    3. Awesome brakes
    4. Maybe more downforce
    5. Useless traction control for the track.

    MKIV would do better at Daytona, LimeRock and Le Mans

    Yeah, give it to Randy, he is always looking for rides.
    Personally, I believe a hotshoe would run faster in a MK4 TT 6MT, tires being equal. I believe the MKV will be much more forgiving of novice mistakes especially with the 8spd auto and torque band it has, so a novice driver would likely go faster in the MKV, tires being equal.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzA View Post
    The supra was never a race track(circuit racing) champion by any means.
    (snip)
    Dude. The Supra was a powerhouse in the GT500 class of JGTC in its heyday. Why does everyone forget JGTC?
    Last edited by Wreckless; 05-14-2019 at 09:42 AM.

  23. #21
    SupraForums Member Crocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenHenderson View Post
    ....Wreckless and I were talking today and I told him that if Motor Trend and its hot shoe driver, Randy Pobst, wanted to conduct such an apples to apples comparison, allowing for my Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires, I would lend my anthracite hard top to such a truth-seeking mission. Pobst has been doing similar driving comparisons for MT for years....

    Ken.
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    TBD

  24. #22
    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reyoasian View Post
    Let's not kid ourselves, the MKIV Supra was a great tuner's car and straight line monster, but not great around the track.
    And you are wrong. Good way to start out.

  25. #23
    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
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    All this blather about the MKIV not being a track car indicates a possible failure to know what makes a car good on the track.
    The BRZ4 has a lot of characteristics that may make it quicker, compared to a model first sold in 1993, but most here seem to forget something that is very critical to road racing.
    BRAKING.
    I have not seen anything about the brakes on this model either way, but if Toyota skimped on this like they did most things, they probably are not nearly as good as the MKIV brakes. Since the new model weighs almost the same as the MKIV, this is more important than if you are comparing to a car that is much lighter. The stock brakes on a MKIV are amazing - I used to scare first-time passengers more with the brakes than the acceleration when I got the car. I would warn them but they never expected what happened when I hit the brakes (in a safe area) from anything 70 mph or greater. Any upgrade to the brakes makes them even better.
    I tracked my car for 14 years and could carry more speed deep into turns than most any car on the track - unless they were purpose-built race cars. You can take the integral of speed over distance and see that you can cover the same ground faster - or more ground in the same time - if you can carry that higher speed. The fact that stock brakes and upgraded brakes had little problem with fade also keeps you going faster longer.
    That would keep the competition much closer than you might imagine.
    Obviously my car is tastefully modified (and still a fully street car with A/C, etc) but it would have little problem with the new model on a track like Road Atlanta - where I tracked a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Supra View Post
    All this blather about the MKIV not being a track car indicates a possible failure to know what makes a car good on the track.
    The BRZ4 has a lot of characteristics that may make it quicker, compared to a model first sold in 1993, but most here seem to forget something that is very critical to road racing.
    BRAKING.
    I have not seen anything about the brakes on this model either way, but if Toyota skimped on this like they did most things, they probably are not nearly as good as the MKIV brakes. Since the new model weighs almost the same as the MKIV, this is more important than if you are comparing to a car that is much lighter. The stock brakes on a MKIV are amazing - I used to scare first-time passengers more with the brakes than the acceleration when I got the car. I would warn them but they never expected what happened when I hit the brakes (in a safe area) from anything 70 mph or greater. Any upgrade to the brakes makes them even better.
    I tracked my car for 14 years and could carry more speed deep into turns than most any car on the track - unless they were purpose-built race cars. You can take the integral of speed over distance and see that you can cover the same ground faster - or more ground in the same time - if you can carry that higher speed. The fact that stock brakes and upgraded brakes had little problem with fade also keeps you going faster longer.
    That would keep the competition much closer than you might imagine.
    Obviously my car is tastefully modified (and still a fully street car with A/C, etc) but it would have little problem with the new model on a track like Road Atlanta - where I tracked a lot.
    Oh they for sure skimped on the breaks but that's okay because they did that "on-purpose" for the aftermarket people for them to add the proper breaks. How convenient and nice of them to do!

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    JetFire Blakbird's Avatar
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    ^*Brakes and I haven't seen anything posted yet on the stopping distance, 4 pot up front it should do ok though. Guess time will tell once full test is done, braking, 1/4 mile etc...

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