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Thread: Can the MK4 beat the MK5 on a race track?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocket View Post
    For me, whether it does well or not does not matter. In my eyes it's not a Toyota, plain and simple. Even if it was to win your above hypothetical comparison and blow the competition and judges away with it's excellent road and track manners only means BMW did a great job and Toyota paid them for it, that's all it would mean. Other than price I still fail to see why one would buy this Toyota and just not get the "genuine BMW" version instead? Buying it for the name "Supra" for me is weird and sad since in the case of this car, Supra is merely plastic lettering on the hatch and nothing more.

    Clear and unmistakable brand identity. Heritage. Legacy. Those all matter more to me than if this car kicks the crap out of the competition in certain performance parameters.
    This pretty much says it all for me as well. I believe we all thought the car would be a good performer despite its DNA and the C/D results are very impressive. I own 8 Toyotas and have lost count of how many I have owned over the course of my life. I am, admittedly, biased, but despite being sorely tempted over the years (E39 M5s in particular), I have studiously avoided BMWs all these years for reasons with which we are all too familiar. It's not a Toyota. End of story.

    When you have been spoiled by Toyota quality, durability and reliability like I have, and all you ever do is take them in for regular service, there is, essentially, no going back, especially at my age. It's why, years ago, my wife and I gave up on our German car experiments (a couple of AMGs and Audis). I was prepared to sell one of my MKIVs to get a MKV but that's not going to happen. And, almost every fun car I own is old and subject to discontinued parts no matter how reliable. So, it comes down to determining whether or not the LC-F will be a reality in my lifetime at a price I can reasonably afford or, interestingly for me, stepping out of the Toyota pool altogether and getting a fun domestic (Challenger Redeye Wide Body, upcoming GT 500, etc.) because they make the power, come with a manual transmission (not the GT 500, though), huge aftermarket support and, of course, a new car warranty. Don't mind me. Just musing out loud at this point...


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  3. #52
    SupraForums Member Dangerzone's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting question... would BMW ever put out an M car with a Volkswagen drivetrain and then have it compete against a 90s M3 and a current miata? No self respecting performance brand would

  4. #53
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    Eventually some journalists will cover this topic and I hope its one of the more well respected ones. Chris Harris?
    I think he's done some pieces that cover what we're looking for. Aside from that it would have to come from the Supra community.

    MKIV is still the winner in my books. 10-15 years out from now that will become more clear.

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  6. #54
    SupraForums Member awegrzyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Supra View Post
    The real point is not whether the new car can be faster than the older car (MKIV) stock for stock. Cars have generations, just like humans, with evolution/improvements of cars coming every 5-6 years in general.
    To me, this is like a new kid showing up at a track meet and realizing that the class he should be in are all much, much faster them him.
    New kid then says "yeah, you all may be faster then me but I can outrun your grandmother".
    This is not the Supra as it should be. It now is a (s)lower-class competitor that will barely outrun it's grandparent.
    I'm not sure I understand you. The title of this thread is: Can the MK4 beat the MK5 on a race track?
    So people are trying to answer the question and be on topic. Opinions. You may not agree. That's cool, but you can't tell me the point is not whether the new car can be faster than the older car (MKIV) stock for stock, for this thread.

    All I'm saying on paper MKV will beat MKIV on track stock for stock. MKIV was the top of it's class (whatever it was). MKV is on top of it's class (what ever it is) judging by the numbers. That's a fact. If we like or don't like the car, that's a subjective opinion, and everyone is going to have one. I really don't care. I prefer MKIV, but I'm not a hard headed person, to not realize MKV just smoked the competition for the price.

    MKIV is an occult.

    And for the record C&D did 3.8 without launch control.
    Last edited by awegrzyn; 05-15-2019 at 06:41 PM.
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  7. #55
    SupraForums Member Supra Turbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdeblancoo View Post
    Eventually some journalists will cover this topic and I hope its one of the more well respected ones. Chris Harris?
    https://twitter.com/harrismonkey/sta...73789840756736

    https://twitter.com/harrismonkey/sta...94647732510720

    https://twitter.com/harrismonkey/sta...93029859364864
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  8. #56
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    Reading through those threads, it's amazing how ill-informed these journalists are, and it's clear very few them have actually owned BMWs. The few that have/do know what's up. It's also just as clear how many of these guys and gals, and the so-called youtube "influencers", have never driven a MKIV. The very few that have driven a MKIV and owned a BMW get why "It's not a Toyota" is such a big deal.

    I find Harris' comments spot-on, but no surprise to anyone that's read some of posts concerning the MKV.


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  9. #57
    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    I'm surprised and honestly happy that the MKV is a performer. Seeing the prototype drive at Goodwood up that hill sure as fuck didn't give a low 12's vibe to me so maybe something changed since then.
    But it is not the top of any class at all, it's too expensive to fit in the budget-beasts like the Mustang GT, and substantially better cars like the C7 GS are within a stones' throw upward of the MKV's price.

    Bottom line is that it's quick and wowing the uninitiated, and putting up respectable performance no matter who you are - but in 5 years it's going to be another problematic BMW turd that can be had for less than half of its asking price now.
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  10. #58
    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awegrzyn View Post
    I'm not sure I understand you. The title of this thread is: Can the MK4 beat the MK5 on a race track?
    So people are trying to answer the question and be on topic. Opinions. You may not agree. That's cool, but you can't tell me the point is not whether the new car can be faster than the older car (MKIV) stock for stock, for this thread.

    All I'm saying on paper MKV will beat MKIV on track stock for stock. MKIV was the top of it's class (whatever it was). MKV is on top of it's class (what ever it is) judging by the numbers. That's a fact. If we like or don't like the car, that's a subjective opinion, and everyone is going to have one. I really don't care. I prefer MKIV, but I'm not a hard headed person, to not realize MKV just smoked the competition for the price.

    MKIV is an occult.

    And for the record C&D did 3.8 without launch control.
    You are right.
    You did not understand.
    Yes - strayed slightly off topic - a first for SF.............
    The "competition" that the MKV "smoked" (has not happened yet) is a lower class than the MKIV topped in it's day. You surely have seen listed the cars that were in the MKIV class in the '90s - those and many others of the current era will "smoke" this car.
    I understand this car is faster than one that was developed and first sold in 1993.
    I also understand that the improvement is marginal.
    Yes the MKIV was/is "supernatural" and the MKV is not.
    You can ignore my statements - that's fine.
    However these are not just opinions, but facts - mainly to the point that this car does not deserve the name!
    You may now return to regular programming.
    Last edited by Silver Supra; 05-16-2019 at 05:07 AM.
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  11. #59
    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s937717 View Post
    The stock MKIV only exists in museums, let's see what happens when the POS Z4 runs against even an average APU car.
    I would love to see it run against my car with a small single (57mm) and just modest mods.

  12. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Supra View Post
    I would love to see it run against my car with a small single (57mm) and just modest mods.
    Against a stock MKV you should be good. Dig run may be challenging depending on your setup in regards to tire etc... I honestly see no point in a modded MKIV going against a stock MKV when the MKV modding starts and they are at similar power levels then sure.
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  13. #61
    SupraForums Member Crocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakbird View Post
    .... I honestly see no point in a modded MKIV going against a stock MKV when the MKV modding starts and they are at similar power levels then sure.
    I agree. Either test them stock vs stock (except with equivalent tires), or modded to the t!ts vs modded to the t!ts. Then and only then would you get some sort of apples to apples comparison.

    edit: removed a bunch of rambling thoughts.
    Last edited by Crocket; 05-16-2019 at 06:05 AM.
    TBD

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    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-test-numbers/

    33984735318_8d15d66fe3_b.jpg

    Specs
    But before we get to the test numbers, we're gonna drone on about specs for a minute. The 2020 Supra bucks the modern trend of every new generation of a car being bigger and heavier than the last. At 172.5 inches long, the new Supra is 5.2 inches shorter than the fourth-gen car and its 97.2-inch wheelbase is 3.2 inches shorter; the new one also is 1.7 inches wider and 0.7 inch taller. The new Supra has the old one beat in terms of weight, too. That 1993 Turbo was 3480 pounds, while the new car weighed in at 3372 pounds—a 108-pound difference. The Mark IV Supra was a two-plus-two, with a small set of seats behind the driver and passenger, but the new Supra is strictly a two-seater; they both have a 10-cubic-foot cargo area accessed by a hatchback.

    Both Supras are rear-wheel drive and use 3.0-liter inline-six engines fed by forced induction, but that's where the similarities start to end. As it was developed in partnership with BMW, the new Supra uses a BMW-sourced six with a single turbo, mated only to an eight-speed automatic transmission. The fourth-gen Supra Turbo had a Toyota-developed twin-turbo six that could be paired either with a six-speed manual or a four-speed automatic. (Base models used a naturally aspirated version of the six with a five-speed manual or four-speed auto.) Actual horsepower and torque numbers haven't changed much in the two-and-a-half decades between generations, with the 1993 car making 320 horsepower and 315 lb-ft and the 2020 model producing 335 horsepower and 365 lb-ft.


    Performance
    Okay, now we'll get to what you really care about. In its day, the Mark IV Supra was quick as hell. The manual-equipped Turbo model that we tested in 1993 hit 60 mph in 4.6 seconds and went through the quarter-mile in 13.1 seconds at 109 mph. In a 1993 six-car comparison test, which it won, we described the Supra Turbo as "a rocket car" that pulled like a train. The 2020 Supra destroys the old car, though, with a 3.8-second zero-to-60-mph time and a quarter-mile dispatched in 12.3 seconds at 113 mph. The A80's 11.1-second zero-to-100-mph and 19.9-second zero-to-130 runs were similarly beaten; the new car posted times of 9.5 seconds to 100 mph and 17.4 seconds to 130.

    The new Supra is also way quicker in passing times, but that's to be expected given the transmission differences. The A90's 5-to-60-mph rolling start time of 4.6 seconds is 1.3 seconds quicker than the A80's, but the real improvement comes in the 30-to-50 and 50-to-70 acceleration runs, which are started in top gear (most automatics will downshift, while manual cars remain in top gear). At 2.5 seconds from 30 to 50 mph and 2.8 seconds from 50 to 70 mph, the new Supra crushes the old car, which recorded times of 13.1 seconds and 8.1 seconds, respectively, in the same tests.

    There is one category where the Mark IV should have the new car beat: top speed. Toyota says the new Supra is limited to 155 mph, while the 1993 car was able to hit 160 mph in our hands. But in our testing, the new car exceeded the limiter, still pulling past the 160 mark. We estimate its real top speed to be around 162 mph.

    Grip has greatly improved, too. The A80 Turbo had 17-inch wheels wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE020 tires, sized 235/45 in front and 255/40 in the rear, while the A90 uses 19-inch wheels with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires, sized 255/35 in front and 275/35 in back. On our skidpad, the old car pulled 0.95 g, which was in the realm of (or better than) many higher-end sports cars at the time. But in the new car we recorded an excellent 1.07 g, nearly matching a Porsche 911 GT3.

    The new Supra also has bigger brakes, using 13.7-inch vented discs in front and 13.6-inch vented discs in the rear, 1.0 inch and 0.8 inch larger than the old car (which also had vented discs). With a 160-foot stopping distance from 70 mph, the 1993 Supra would still be respectable today. But the 2020 Supra stopped in 148 feet, again putting it in the league of more hard-core modern machinery.

    So that's how the two Supras compare on paper, at least in numbers. Sure, it might not be surprising that the new one is better in basically every measurable way—but it kind of had to be, right? Supra fans aren't exactly tame and easy to please.
    Last edited by darkloki; 05-16-2019 at 08:28 AM.
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  15. #63
    SupraForums Member Dangerzone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless View Post
    I'm surprised and honestly happy that the MKV is a performer. Seeing the prototype drive at Goodwood up that hill sure as fuck didn't give a low 12's vibe to me so maybe something changed since then.
    But it is not the top of any class at all, it's too expensive to fit in the budget-beasts like the Mustang GT, and substantially better cars like the C7 GS are within a stones' throw upward of the MKV's price.

    Bottom line is that it's quick and wowing the uninitiated, and putting up respectable performance no matter who you are - but in 5 years it's going to be another problematic BMW turd that can be had for less than half of its asking price now.
    A few things here to expand on your excellent points:
    The MKIV was released 27 years ago. It would be nearly impossible to release a car that was a downgrade stock for stock in 2019. Better tire technology, better designs available around suspension geometry, far better engine tech available, etc. In 1992 400hp was earth shattering. Now it's easily available in affordable Mustangs and Camaros. The Civic Type R when it came out in the mid 90s had 180ish hp which was actually considered "good" then. Now it has 300 which is again in this market considered "good"... and not too far away from the MKV supra's power. The modern Civic type R does a mid 13. The MKV BETTER be able to beat that for $55k!

    The point you make about class matters so much, and the fact that this is ignored constantly by auto writers is an embarrassment. The Supra TT was a high $40k car after Toyota price corrected after the 93/94 release (Toyota/Lexus did this all around, classic B school case, discussion for another time), putting it at about mid $70k in today's dollars. This was NOT supposed to be a $55k car, it was supposed to be a $75k car and compete with real performers like the 911, the C7 vette, the GTR, etc. Instead it competes with cars significantly cheaper or with better marques. Auto writers keep wanting to discuss this car in a vacuum like the rest of the car market doesn't exist, and people will just buy the Supra for its name. They assume car buyers are just that stupid. And maybe now in 2019 in the age the millennial status without substance buyer... maybe they are.

    I would also point out, that most 5 year old BMWs would be lucky to hold 50% of their original purchase price, it's closer to 25-30%. I think only Mercedes has worse depreciation.

  16. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerzone View Post
    A few things here to expand on your excellent points:
    The MKIV was released 27 years ago. It would be nearly impossible to release a car that was a downgrade stock for stock in 2019. Better tire technology, better designs available around suspension geometry, far better engine tech available, etc. In 1992 400hp was earth shattering. Now it's easily available in affordable Mustangs and Camaros. The Civic Type R when it came out in the mid 90s had 180ish hp which was actually considered "good" then. Now it has 300 which is again in this market considered "good"... and not too far away from the MKV supra's power. The modern Civic type R does a mid 13. The MKV BETTER be able to beat that for $55k!

    The point you make about class matters so much, and the fact that this is ignored constantly by auto writers is an embarrassment. The Supra TT was a high $40k car after Toyota price corrected after the 93/94 release (Toyota/Lexus did this all around, classic B school case, discussion for another time), putting it at about mid $70k in today's dollars. This was NOT supposed to be a $55k car, it was supposed to be a $75k car and compete with real performers like the 911, the C7 vette, the GTR, etc. Instead it competes with cars significantly cheaper or with better marques. Auto writers keep wanting to discuss this car in a vacuum like the rest of the car market doesn't exist, and people will just buy the Supra for its name. They assume car buyers are just that stupid. And maybe now in 2019 in the age the millennial status without substance buyer... maybe they are.

    I would also point out, that most 5 year old BMWs would be lucky to hold 50% of their original purchase price, it's closer to 25-30%. I think only Mercedes has worse depreciation.
    We're actually seeing Honda/Acura doing this right now or this quarter as they're bringing down their NSX by 20 thousand: https://www.motor1.com/news/349834/2...ra-nsx-rebate/
    Last edited by darkloki; 05-16-2019 at 01:19 PM.

  17. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Supra View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by s937717 View Post
    The stock MKIV only exists in museums, let's see what happens when the POS Z4 runs against even an average APU car.
    I would love to see it run against my car with a small single (57mm) and just modest mods.

    Are you anywhere near NC? I'm going to Darlington Dragway when I get mine with the Shift Fast guys (performance shop down here) to see where we're starting before I start any mods.

  18. #66
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    Now TST has their 2-hour long podcast up discussing the Supra


    TST Podcast #429 - Matt and Zack! (Return of the Supra)


    It's a TST crew show. Matt and Zack debate the merits of the new (and old) Supra, talk about where it fits in the market, and why it isn't an LC500. We also discuss off-roading, lake beds, drifting, Zack driving a rare Porsche RSR replica, and answer a TON of questions.

  19. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerzone View Post
    A few things here to expand on your excellent points:
    The MKIV was released 27 years ago. It would be nearly impossible to release a car that was a downgrade stock for stock in 2019. Better tire technology, better designs available around suspension geometry, far better engine tech available, etc. In 1992 400hp was earth shattering. Now it's easily available in affordable Mustangs and Camaros. The Civic Type R when it came out in the mid 90s had 180ish hp which was actually considered "good" then. Now it has 300 which is again in this market considered "good"... and not too far away from the MKV supra's power. The modern Civic type R does a mid 13. The MKV BETTER be able to beat that for $55k!

    The point you make about class matters so much, and the fact that this is ignored constantly by auto writers is an embarrassment. The Supra TT was a high $40k car after Toyota price corrected after the 93/94 release (Toyota/Lexus did this all around, classic B school case, discussion for another time), putting it at about mid $70k in today's dollars. This was NOT supposed to be a $55k car, it was supposed to be a $75k car and compete with real performers like the 911, the C7 vette, the GTR, etc. Instead it competes with cars significantly cheaper or with better marques. Auto writers keep wanting to discuss this car in a vacuum like the rest of the car market doesn't exist, and people will just buy the Supra for its name. They assume car buyers are just that stupid. And maybe now in 2019 in the age the millennial status without substance buyer... maybe they are.

    I would also point out, that most 5 year old BMWs would be lucky to hold 50% of their original purchase price, it's closer to 25-30%. I think only Mercedes has worse depreciation.
    +1 on this. Dangerzone, you're in a zone. Every one of your posts on this, and related topics, have been on point.


    Ken.

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    Even with the SC300/SC400 they held back big time.
    Compared to what Japan got in the Soarer, the SC was a completely different car, it was dull.
    Meanwhile in Japan:


  21. #69
    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mgoose View Post
    Are you anywhere near NC? I'm going to Darlington Dragway when I get mine with the Shift Fast guys (performance shop down here) to see where we're starting before I start any mods.
    No - I am not and I retired my car (actually me) last year. Anyway, my car was/is for road racing, not a straight line. That is why I would like to get on a road course like Road Atlanta with a MKV.

  22. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Supra View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mgoose View Post
    Are you anywhere near NC? I'm going to Darlington Dragway when I get mine with the Shift Fast guys (performance shop down here) to see where we're starting before I start any mods.
    No - I am not and I retired my car (actually me) last year. Anyway, my car was/is for road racing, not a straight line. That is why I would like to get on a road course like Road Atlanta with a MKV.
    If I were a better driver, I could go. I would love to go to VIR or RA, but I don't have the time. I need to go do one of the track classes.

    I'm hoping that as we get closer to release day, Toyota lets some magazines take cars to these tracks to test them. I know they did Summit Point, but I'd really like to see what a professional driver could do behind the wheel.

  23. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzA View Post
    "I have to call BS on this. The MKIV finished 14th out of 50 in Le Mans and was competing with Ferrari F40’s, Mclaren F1’s, several Porsche’s, etc. It didn’t have to get fame from winning to say that it didn’t show an amazing accomplishment. Fun fact: It finished higher than every Porsche in that race. I know I sound like a fanboy but they put it against the best automobiles on the market at that time and it beat 72% of them... that’s a statement in my book. "

    Really? That year wasn't the best year for many cars, wet, and just not ideal conditions for this race.

    out of 48 participating cars, 20 completed the race.

    out of the 20 the supra finished 14th but, the supras class were just 10 cars out of the 20 and it finished 8 out 10.

    The supra was in the LMGT1 class

    27 LMGT1 cars participated that race. 17 of them did not finish, leaving 10 left. Out of the 10 competing cars in the supra's division, the supra came 8 out of 10 beating only two cars, one of which was having issues the whole race if i recall correctly.

    The only other Japan car in the LMGT1 left was the Sklyine, which finished 10th, beating the Supra.

    Supra also several issues that race and were lucky to finish at all. had gearbox issues, which was swapped out. it wasn't the 6 speed the car came with, it wasn't the 2jz , not that this should much of a surprise. problems with the flat floor under the car , and radiator had to be replaced.

    Miserable race for many cars that year.
    Well it was there... competing? What about the 28 cars that couldn’t finish the race... it came in front of those as well. I guess 8 out of 27 in the LMGT1 class as well. If 17 didn’t finish then the mkiv was able to overcome some of the problems that plagued the other vehicles. I know it had plenty issues of its own, I just think it shouldn’t be discredited so much, especially since it was one of the few that was able to endure the conditions.
    Last edited by MkivOldStock; 05-18-2019 at 01:02 AM.
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  24. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mgoose View Post
    Are you anywhere near NC? I'm going to Darlington Dragway when I get mine with the Shift Fast guys (performance shop down here) to see where we're starting before I start any mods.



    I'm fairly local and run at Darlington pretty regularly.

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    1997 Supra TT Auto BPU -- 12.0 @ 122MPH
    1994 Supra 6sp -- 72mm, VPC/AFC, stock longblock -- 722WHP & 10.36 @ 139.5MPH
    1993.5 Supra TT Auto BPU

  25. #73
    SupraForums Member
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    Wyoming
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    809
    I can't see why anyone was really surprised with the acceleration. Look at where that torque peaks on the new car. Sneeze on that throttle and you're putting out respectable power.

    I suspect if (big IF, given what I've seen of BMW reliability) these things have even a semblance of Toyota quality, we're going to see some pretty good cars developed out of the new platform. Time will tell either way, which is why I'm never one to buy cars that haven't proven themselves, no matter who makes them.
    -Brad
    87 Supra 1jz, monster in the making
    99 Miata DD, 46 Chevy Fleetmaster garage ornament

  26. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by HellBringer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mgoose View Post
    Are you anywhere near NC? I'm going to Darlington Dragway when I get mine with the Shift Fast guys (performance shop down here) to see where we're starting before I start any mods.
    I'm fairly local and run at Darlington pretty regularly. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.supraforums.com/forum/images/smilies/naughty.gif[/IMG]

    If you're mostly stock (not much more than 400ish whp), it'd be interesting to see how they stack up. Didn't go through your post history, so not sure. Of course, this is like, 2 months down the line, so who knows what'll happen in that time.

  27. #75
    Very Senior Member Silver Supra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
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    2 Pa Low
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    9,663
    Quote Originally Posted by Mgoose View Post
    If you're mostly stock (not much more than 400ish whp), it'd be interesting to see how they stack up. Didn't go through your post history, so not sure. ..
    LOL. Look at his signature!
    I have seen this car at the 1/2-mile at Heaven's Landing - if is faaassssstttttttt!

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