Twincharging idea (cost effective alternative to twin turbo!) centrif supercharger!

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    Stormcock approves Shlongor's Avatar
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    Twincharging idea (cost effective alternative to twin turbo!) centrif supercharger!

    I apologize in advance for the confusing layout and strange terminology. I pieced this together as I went along and am having trouble editing it.

    I was reading some threads about unusual setups and thought this up. What if you took a largeish turbo (sp67 area?) and ran it with a centrifugal supercharger. Obviously you would want a fully built engine to handle the VERY high boost level.

    Btw, I am seriously looking into such a setup, though I would not be able to afford it right now, mostly because it is a HIGH OUTPUT setup requiring a built motor. The rest is fairly straightforward.

    What you need:
    -Big turbo (strongly recommend aftermarket tubular exh manifold! even if cheapo ebay)
    -Supercharger (reasonable compressor size for fitment reasons and this guy will give you more low end. Yes, a centrifugal supercharger still makes better low end than a turbocharger)
    -Front facing intake manifold (could do it on the stocker, but that'd be stupid for your power goals)
    -Alternator bracket (to accomodate FFIM... there may be some FFIMs that don't require relocation, but I havn't seen them)
    -Modified PS bracket (to put it where AC was... or you can just eliminate it)
    -Supercharger mounting bracket custom made. Shouldn't cost much and you can do it yourself or contract someone like BIC (though I believe he is heavily backlogged with his own products).
    -The rest is a no brainer and you would need with any setup. Big FMIC, fuel, some way to tune (probably standalone because of high output potential)
    -Electric exhaust cutout (if going for the bigger turbo than supercharger route from SCENARIO 1) and means to control it.

    WTF is SCENARIO 1? SCENARIO 2?:
    -Crappily drawn schematics. First one is SCENARIO 1 and guess what the second one is?


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Advantages:
    1) The Supercharger would run off the belt, so you would make boost (from it) on a linear and predictable scale.
    2) The Supercharger would help spool the turbo from the exhaust gas output (FROM SCENARIO 1 & 2) and possibly from the forced ingestion of SCENARIO 1.
    3) Less space issues than a twin turbo setup (could mount centif supercharger in place of PS pump and move PS pump over to AC position or delete it altogether). Location of the air/water IC could be an issue if you want to run one.
    4) Save money/space/complexity!
    5) UNIQUE!!!
    6) Better spool than just a big single and same/more power!
    7) Would flow AMAZINGLY (especially if you use a water/air IC like in SCENARIO 1)
    8) Could run less boost in the individual compressors, keeping them in their efficiency range, lowering lag, and saving you money on the type of gas you will have to run.
    !!!!!!!!!Could completely eliminate supercharger circuit if you wanted to compare spool/power characteristics (SCENARIO 2)

    Disadvantages:
    1) Would cost more than a similar big single/SOME twin turbo setups (custom). The supercharger would be your greatest expense, though I THINK you can get a used one rebuilt (not sure!). Scenario 2 is easily cheaper than a twin turbo setup!
    2) Would steal some power to run the supercharger (easily made up.. but this is the big "argument" against superchargers)
    3) Would most likely need a front facing intake manifold due to pipe length/complexity issues (can get one custom made for ~$600 if you look around). Not really a disadvantage since at this power level, the stock manifold will be a bottleneck.

    Unknowns?:
    1) This one is very unknown to me. If the turbo were sized to flow a lot more than the supercharger, would it be choked by the impeller wheel of the supercharger and/or damage it? What if similar flowing compressors were used? Idea: You could rig up an electric cutout to switch the turbo over to its own separate filter! (not 100% or you'd damage the supercharger. Maybe 50% to take the load off the supercharger and let the turbocharger breathe) This would require converting to a standalone or system like the MAFT (because of the variable intake). In addition, if you used a cutout, you would need some kind of enormous 1way check valve (a BOV might work!) so you couldn't blow your compressed air out of the secondary intake). Also, you could just run them in parallel, meaning they would be separate circuits. That would eliminate the need for the water/air IC. A dual inlet intercooler (like the one used for other TT cars) would make it work perfectly.
    2) MAY need standalone system (you'd outgrow the AFM system anyway, so whether that's a disadvantage or a nonissue is up to you). SCENARIO 1 would NOT require a standalone by design (one "intake"), but you'd most likely want one anyway due to HP goals. Not really a disadvantage because if you went twin turbo, you'd need a standalone anyway.

    CUSTOM WORK!?:
    !You would have to have a PS pump bracket fabbed or modded to fit on the other side and get a proper sized belt (or just eliminate the PS and go manual rack from a mustang).
    !You would have to have a FFIM made, which is taken care of by several members on the board. Or if you can weld or have a friend who can, make one yourself. It doesn't have to flow amazing, just gives us more room to route stuff.
    !You would have to have a bracket fabbed for the supercharger. Wouldn't be that hard to do it yourself if you have access to the tools. Just bolt it up where the PS pump was with possibly one extra bracing bar to prevent it from becoming a vibration problem at high (compressor) rpm.

    Why this and not twin turbos?:
    -Space, fabrication, cost, and complexity will all be problematic with a twin turbo setup on the 7m. So just go jz? If you want to do that, you've missed the point of this endeavor.

    On a side note, why do centrifugal superchargers cost so much money? It's just a compressor that runs off a pulley and has gear reduction (not sure on the exact specs, but think 1:5 or so? At 3000 RPM, the compressor is spinning at 15000 RPM). It seems like (at worst) it would only cost marginally more than a turbocharger setup of similar proportions.

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    +1 FTMFW mk3supraholic's Avatar
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    ill try it this weekend ill get back to you.

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    Stormcock approves Shlongor's Avatar
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    Thanks for contributing your technical knowledge and ideas to this thread!

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    it's been mentioned lots of time, but I have yet to see anyone do it.

    You did strike on the one big challenge to this, and why it's rare for the OEM's to do this setup.... you have to match the turbo and superchargers or the strain is horrible on one of them. I'd say the super charger would have the worst time here since the wastegate could control a bit of the excess if the supercharger is too large...

    There is a manifold for the 7m that allows the use of the stock TT setup from a 2jz to be used, so it's not too horrible expensive since everyone takes the twins off anways (it seems).

    There is also the efficency issue of a supercharger compared to a turbo. Maybe if it's one of those Rotrex superchargers (which reached efficency and speed levels very close tot a turbocharger), but a twin charger vs a big single or twin turbo setup will suffer on the topend.

    If you have the funding, go head, but I'd recommend you use a Rotrex supercharger if you do... http://www.rotrex.eu.com/

    EDIT: After looking into it more, there is the issue of getting a new pulley for the crank to drive the supercharger, plus clearance issues between the belts and the fan/radiator. Also the hoses for the PS won't reach, you'd have to go custom or get rid of them all together...
    Last edited by Poodles; 03-15-2006 at 11:35 PM.

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    SupraForums Member Spoolme's Avatar
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    or you could use the supercharger to help spool the turbo and then when you reach a certain amount of boost the supercharger will stop. i think there is a setup for this..im pretty sure. 95%

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    Just some guy Racefiend's Avatar
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    I personally don't see the advantage of using a centrifugal supercharger for this. Roots or screw yes, but a centrifugal can be just as laggy as a large turbo. You may not gain much spool at all for all the work. Not to mention, if running it in scenario b, the turbo itself would not need to be that big anyways.

    awesome drawings btw

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    Stormcock approves Shlongor's Avatar
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    A centrifugal supercharger is just a belt-driven turbocharger compressor really. They run at lower speeds but still are a top-end sort of thing. Mostly this would be for coolness factor .

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    Just some guy Racefiend's Avatar
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    Here's the idea I've been kicking around for a while. It uses a roots (or even twin screw) type SC. It would offer instant power, and also help spool the turbo quick. Once the turbo itself starts to produce boost, the SC would draw less and less power from the engine up to the point the turbo started to outflow the SC, in which case the SC would not draw any power from the engine (well very little, same as at idle). I want to keep my AC, so I'd like to implement a colum mounted electric PS system from a Vauxhaull. Another avenue for you to look at.



    I modified your original masterpiece

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    I had considered a positive displacement style supercharger. I'm not sure why I didn't write it down. There was a guy with a 2jz full race mk2 in Australia that is doing this very thing with a screw type SC.

    That would make the ultimate street setup.

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    keep in mind that the Rotrex superchargers I linked you to move at speeds MUCH closer to turbos and have better spool up (zero lag since it's direct drive), and yes they are basicly a turbo compressor side

    I do remember seeing a roots style on the side of a 7m somewhere, dunno where though, but he wasn't twincharging...

    Personally, I think people that complain like "your car is slow because it lags so much" need to shut up, I have no problem getting spool up from a roll, and from a stand still, if I had that massive torque, I wouldn't have anyway to get it to the ground...

    Like I said, cool concept, but it wouldn't be that much better than one or the other...

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    Turbonetics..faggot asses
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    DAM now everybody wants to twincharge there 7M I guess I better hurry up and get mine done so I can claim the title of being the first.

    Here's some research I did for mine that will help

    1. Centrif SC's defeat the purpose twincharging ---->No boost till mid rpms so forget those

    2. Screw type SC's are retardedly expensive (unless you have plenty o' cabbage to burn)

    3. The best type to use is a roots blower.(positive pressure off the line)..actually the perfect one is an eaton m62 or m90 (m90's from a late 80's early 90's Tbird SC are cheap, not overly big and easy to find used on ebay ....got mine for +$100 in great shape) They have universal mount ability (The GM models were built as part of the intake manifolds so forget those)

    4. Theres no way your going to mount a roots blower on the passenger side of the engine ..........simply not enough room to work with if your keeping the turbo in place..........unless your putting a redneck scoop on the hood

    5. You've got to have a bypass or check valve somewhere in your intake plumbing because the supercharger cannot provide enough air to feed the turbo at higher boost levels and the turbo will flow more air than the supercharger can pass(meaning turbo->SC or SC->turbo

    6. My theory is you may actully lose a little top end horsepower or not gain very much because by then the turbo will be doing all or most of the work.. But the low end you gain and quicker spooling will more than make up for it. The SC isn't really going to do much for you on the top end actually it would be best to have it bypass air at higher boost levels because of its shitty efficiency and heat creation

    7.eliminatemechanical power steering pump and goto an electric one (Gen2 MR2's were electrohydrolic. one less belt to screw with. $50-$150 junk yard

    8. get a GM one wire 160 amp alt and mont where PS pump was. $99 ebay

    9. get 35 gpm electric water pump (eliminate that pulley to screw with) $150-$250 new..... found some cheaper

    10. get your fabing shoes on and make a new upper intake MANI so the roots blower can sit on it.

    11. Notice I didnt say anything about eliminating AC pump......Fuck that.....AC stays on my car
    Last edited by Fried Rice; 03-16-2006 at 03:48 PM.
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    Turbonetics..faggot asses
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    personnaly I cant understand why none of the NA guys haven't tried to put an m90 on there 7m's. those things have been proven to put out over 400hp on a ford 3.8 2 valve P cylinder engine I think one dude did an 11.5 in the 1/4 with no NOS just the SC and a built 3.8 in a 90's supercoupe. If I was NA I think I'd go that route instead. If all you wanted was <400hp

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    SupraForums Member flaktech's Avatar
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    97 TT v160 BPU+

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    Turbonetics..faggot asses
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    Quote Originally Posted by flaktech
    Yep read about that one

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    Hello

    Sounds like a great idea. I was thinking that this could be one of the best ways of making high horsepower with a 7M. If a huge single was installed, the supercharger could power the car at low - mid RPM then the turbo could kick in at the higher end to get a huge power output. It would (in theory) kill lag and the power surge that comes with big turbos.

    Anyway, Isnít cost still going to be a big issue?

  18. #16
    Turbonetics..faggot asses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dons1mpson
    Hello

    Sounds like a great idea. I was thinking that this could be one of the best ways of making high horsepower with a 7M. If a huge single was installed, the supercharger could power the car at low - mid RPM then the turbo could kick in at the higher end to get a huge power output. It would (in theory) kill lag and the power surge that comes with big turbos.

    Anyway, Isnít cost still going to be a big issue?
    If you pay somebody else to do all the work ...........absolutely. A rebuilt m90 can be had for less than $500 all the other bolt ons probably a little more but ball bearing turbo's aren't cheap either ( thats what everybody always says in here thats why i said it).......labor cost to put everything together and fab up would be the $$$ problem.........UNLESS you do it yourself. Well to be safe I'm going maft pro so i can avoid MAF problems with boost leaks.
    Last edited by Fried Rice; 03-16-2006 at 05:10 PM.

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    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    I'd drawn up much more complex schematics to do a D-1 procharger linear twincharge setup.
    There's no way the centri can blow into the turbo well, as the charger would act as a gigantic air intake restriction once the turbo's compressor intake demands outstripped that superchargers output at that RPM.. not to mention be extremely hard on the thrustwashers of the turbo. A centri typically has much more strength to axial force thus it would be better to have it downstream of the turbo.

    The only feasible way to do a twincharger with a centri is to have the turbocharger blowing into the centrifugal's inlet. considering the layout of the 7M once you moved the PS to where the a/c used to be this would be easy to have a single hotpipe connecting the compressor outlet to the inlet of the centri, and run it to intercooling from there, and intake after that. Two other major concerns are IC and wastegate sizes, because of the compounded boost you'd see huge intake temps and need a compensatingly huge IC. Also, to prevent the combined boost from the supercharger and the turbo from causing boost creeping and spiking, you'd need to run a much larger wastegate than would be needed for the desired power level, as more exhaust would need to be bypassed as the supercharger would be making boost that the turbo doesn't need to, so the turbo's shaft speeds would be correspondingly low for a given boost level.

    Running them in parallel is practically begging for surge issues, valved or not. I can't think of a way that wouldn't be insanely complex and full of power dips as the valving switched.

    A twinscrew or roots mounted directly onto a custom intake manifold would probably be more ideal to enjoy the benfits of twincharging, as has been already discussed. Again, the compounded boost problem is there and you'd again need a much larger wastegate to control boost on such a setup.

    I've wanted to do a 7M twincharger setup, but I've just never had the money. Oh well.

  20. #18
    Turbonetics..faggot asses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless
    I'd drawn up much more complex schematics to do a D-1 procharger linear twincharge setup.
    There's no way the centri can blow into the turbo well, as the charger would act as a gigantic air intake restriction once the turbo's compressor intake demands outstripped that superchargers output at that RPM.. not to mention be extremely hard on the thrustwashers of the turbo. A centri typically has much more strength to axial force thus it would be better to have it downstream of the turbo.

    The only feasible way to do a twincharger with a centri is to have the turbocharger blowing into the centrifugal's inlet. considering the layout of the 7M once you moved the PS to where the a/c used to be this would be easy to have a single hotpipe connecting the compressor outlet to the inlet of the centri, and run it to intercooling from there, and intake after that. Two other major concerns are IC and wastegate sizes, because of the compounded boost you'd see huge intake temps and need a compensatingly huge IC. Also, to prevent the combined boost from the supercharger and the turbo from causing boost creeping and spiking, you'd need to run a much larger wastegate than would be needed for the desired power level, as more exhaust would need to be bypassed as the supercharger would be making boost that the turbo doesn't need to, so the turbo's shaft speeds would be correspondingly low for a given boost level.

    Running them in parallel is practically begging for surge issues, valved or not. I can't think of a way that wouldn't be insanely complex and full of power dips as the valving switched.

    A twinscrew or roots mounted directly onto a custom intake manifold would probably be more ideal to enjoy the benfits of twincharging, as has been already discussed. Again, the compounded boost problem is there and you'd again need a much larger wastegate to control boost on such a setup.

    I've wanted to do a 7M twincharger setup, but I've just never had the money. Oh well.

    Bro twincharging isn't exactly a brand new deal. Many people have successfully twin charged other cars........ Just not a MKIII with a 7M. While I was researching I came across quite a few sites on the net with cars that were twin charged. The only thing was almost all of them were 4 cylinders. There was a pic posted on here of an RB26 with twin turbos and a roots blower..........but it wasn't in a car so it doesn't say much for performance

    Just to show my dedication to this project I bought the DM name www.twincharged.com . I have nothing setup on it right now but once get done with my bathroom project for my wife in the next couple of weeks info will start to be posted.

  21. #19
    Stormcock approves Shlongor's Avatar
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    So this setup seems to be the best way to go. Think it's possible to wedge a roots or twin screw style SC where the stock manifold is? Also, wouldn't the turbo eventually overcompress the SC and cause it to break?


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    Also, wouldn't the turbo eventually overcompress the SC and cause it to break?
    That was my thought on the turbo when you had the diagram of the SC raming air at the turbo inlet.

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    I'd just copy what VW is doing...


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    BMM Boostedmkiii's Avatar
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    ^^ looks like a pretty decent plan right there...

    so Shlongor, when are you planning to do this? right after you get the best plan worked out? im really excited to see if this works well on a 7m.

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    I was just wondering if It would be possible to get 1000rwhp using this method?
    Last edited by Dons1mpson; 03-17-2006 at 11:25 AM.

  26. #24
    Super Moderator Wreckless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fried Rice
    Bro twincharging isn't exactly a brand new deal. Many people have successfully twin charged other cars........ Just not a MKIII with a 7M. While I was researching I came across quite a few sites on the net with cars that were twin charged. The only thing was almost all of them were 4 cylinders. There was a pic posted on here of an RB26 with twin turbos and a roots blower..........but it wasn't in a car so it doesn't say much for performance

    Just to show my dedication to this project I bought the DM name www.twincharged.com . I have nothing setup on it right now but once get done with my bathroom project for my wife in the next couple of weeks info will start to be posted.
    No shit. I rode in a twincharged AW11 MR2 back in 1992. Thing is that the roots blower became an intake restriction after about 310whp or so on those HKS twincharger kits like that car had. I've seen numerous other buildups involving 4A-GE's using similar setups, including a RWD corolla that was laid out like the VW diagram here. Hell there's even a twincharger kit out for the fucking Mini Cooper S.
    The Blitz twincharged RB26 never ran. It was set up as a demo motor only to gauge interest and for their project price it ended up never getting developed, or so I've read via google language tools on some japanese sites I found that pic on. Who knows if they were right or not but its consistent with the utter lack of anything beyond that one image.

    Considering the fabrication hurdle to properly fit a roots or twinscrew to a 7M, if I was going to twincharge one I'd do the turbo-to-centri-to-bigass IC-to intake layout I discussed. I've taken a D1 and actually played with fitment in a 7M engine bay - so unlike everyone else in this thread my idea isn't pure conjecture - and this layout would be the best particularly when the SC inlet has to be pointed at the firewall anyway. Since the ATI's don't need an engine oil source and the compressor of a centri is dampened and much more resistant to axial and radial force because of the measures required to be belt driven - as opposed to a turbo where intake pressure blowing into the turbo WOULD be a stress on the thrust bearings - Its my 2 bar that a turbo-to-centri-to-ic-to-intake layout as I'd discussed would be the easiest reliable way to twincharge a 7M.

    But then again, I don't know anything about what I'm talking about and everyone's going to spit out thier two cents without considering a damn thing anyone else has already said anyway, since this is the 7M world and everyone is an expert.

  27. #25
    Turbonetics..faggot asses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless
    No shit.
    No need for condecending smartassness. The way you were talking it sounded like you didn't believe this would work at all on any engine.

    unless your using a positive displacement SC like a roots blower you will not have any positive pressure from idle unless you overdrive the shit out of the centrif SC. I thought the whole point of twincharging was to eliminate any sort of lag from the turbo and get the car out of the hole a shit load quicker. The way I'm setting mine up it really won't do jack shit to help top end over what the turbo already does but will have the ridiculous low end torque of a deisel engine.

    I 100% agree with you on the thrust problem on the compressor doing supercharger-->turbo inlet

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