Stock twins replacement/upgrade - Hybrid GT28R's

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Thread: Stock twins replacement/upgrade - Hybrid GT28R's

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    GO 'Cats! bonz's Avatar
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    Stock twins replacement/upgrade - Hybrid GT28R's

    So I've been keeping watch over the past two years (as many others have..and for longer) for hybrid turbos which retain the sequential operating system and offer significant hp gains.

    Well Stu Hagen, King of the Sequential twins (not necessarily "stock" sequential twins in this case), has come up with this exact option. Below please find a link to the initial discussion from the dyno section. #49 on pg. 2 is where it gets interesting.

    One beta tester already has these on. I'll let him come on board with the specifics but basically he is finishing up the plumbing and then he'll be putting them on the dyno. and doing a "how to". I will be doing the same as soon as I get my pair.

    He also has a manifold which will allow these turbos to really breathe. Inner diameter of the turbo inlet is the same as the ID of the piping. 600+ on race gas should be possible with this setup.

    Hopefully the guys on the "other" forum will chime in here and help this get rolling also as I've cross-linked the threads . Big thanks to Stu and all the others involved in this project. They add so much to the Supra community.

    https://supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=427097

    http://www."theotherforum".com/vb/showthread.php?t=3834
    Last edited by bonz; 07-15-2007 at 08:05 PM. Reason: spacing
    I could give a S#$% what THEY say. I actually have never found THEM.

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    In for the "watch".

    I also took the liberty of editing your original post title so that it might get more attention from those interested.
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    GO 'Cats! bonz's Avatar
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    Thanks Steve!

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    Man if I do another Supra Id be interested in twin GT28's as the T3 flanged hybrids from PTE are capable of 440hp each. Spool is ridiculous too.


    Selling my 94 Supra TT Singled GT42 PM if interested , considering partial trades.

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    Subscribed. I just purchased a pair of OEM hybrid turbos tested by Stu Hagen and Aaron for my red BPU car. I did not know the possibility of hybrid GT28Rs or I might have held out for those. Be that as it may, other than a change in intake filters from HKS to Blitz, the only change on my car will be the "original" OEM hybrids, so my power gains should be representative of what one can expect with these turbos and no other changes. Of course a good tune will be necessary but I figure most going this route will have that covered.

    Bonz, thanks for the PMs (you, too, Steve T.). Just want to make sure. Is the person you referenced in your original post installing the original OEM hybrids or the GT28Rs referenced in your thread title? Just trying to keep up with the anticipated flow of information. TIA,

    Ken.
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    I'm always interested in the stock factory twins look since california has so many smog issues. I contact Stu Hagen and Aaron a while back for a set of twins but never got a respond back from Aaron.
    Ken pm me if you ever decided to let them twins go, I'll be interested!
    Let us know how much differance it makes. THX KXIONG

    BTW STU hows your car and thanks for the quick pm.

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    Now..........we can get to specifics!

    Over the last 4 years, there has been a lot of talk about hybrids. Few have ever come up with anything concrete. Europe and Australia have made more advancements in this area than the US. There are a couple of people in this forum who have done this. TomSid being one. Following his thread for over a year was really interesting. It ended up more of a disappointment than anything else. After spending WAY more than there value, and producing much less HP than expected, it finally died away. The saddest part was after he removed these and sold them off to another Supra owner, his car got stolen, along with the hybrids. (https://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...t=79889&page=2)

    So in came Aaron, a member here, and a turbo engineer with GE. He and I collaborated and he came up with the first beta series T30 60mm turbos.
    http://97supraturbo.com/New%20Turbo%...OEM-Hybrid.JPG
    I supplied most all the materials Aaron had the hybrids made. These are currently on my car as we speak. They have made 501 whp in Vegas, and 534 whp here where I live. Both were just about at 20psi. (all this in my original thread from a year ago). We have about 20 sets out there still being tested. There has been a 630+whp on these with an undisclosed shot. His turbos have since bit the dust (he ran them at 28psi) So the limits to these are around 22-24 psi safely. The good news is there value, the downside is they still use the OEM shaft and turbine. I have literally beat the crap out of these and they are still doing very well. 3 HPDE and several drag runs with no issues. My minimum boost is 17.6 and maximum is 22 psi. These are true "drop-in" turbos. What I mean is removing the band clamps/oil and water lines, and your done.

    Then came another turbo builder who had made a trial set of turbos with a true drop in GT28R set of cartridges. These require a lot more work to install since these no longer use the band clamp installation, and do not use OEM water and Oil lines. This individual knows turbos quite well. They use the same OEM compressor housing and all other stock piping, etc. The EBV and WG actuators are modified slightly because they no longer use the same "flappers". Other than that, completely stock looking.

    The first beta tester for these goes by "hammerhead" here on the forums. He has made a custom manifold that would compliment these turbos. He also is doing a mock up set of oil and water lines. Hopefully he will be done soon and provide some dynos based on his level of mods. I should have mine installed by September. We are going to make several sets for testing. Right now, I have sent in 12 sets. Hopefully there will be more interest and we can some of these out there instead of myself and hammerhead. PM me for further details.

    Here again are what the GT28R look like.http://97supraturbo.com/GT28R%20Turb...Conversion.pdf

    These have been balanced to 24psi. They have a 33% larger shaft, and a larger Turbine. Estimate output is about 20% more than the ones I have now. This maybe a little lower with lesser mods than myself. Again, its all really unknown until more people start providing dynos, etc.

    Keep in mind that these will probably be twice the cost as the ones I am currently running. So these, once marketed by someone, will be pushing the "single" cost factor. So they won't appeal to everyone. I should also mention that both these set-ups will run sequential. I cannot vouch for these new GT28R's as yet, as far as how well they perform sequential, but they are designed to run sequential. Although they could run TTC as well.

    In conjunction to upgraded turbo's, I have also designed a small electronic #1 turbo boost controller that plumbs into the stock EBV VSV location. It basically will control the stock VSV to operate at different adjustable thresholds than how the OEM ECU controls it now. No extra hose routings required. It can adjust the boost levels from 10 -18 psi. Hopefully I will have these available at Speedforsale in a month or so. Just need testing.

    Stu Hagen
    Last edited by Stu Hagen; 07-16-2007 at 11:06 AM.

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    would a hybrid set up like this be able to pass smog ?

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    Ken, I knew of these, but at that time, we werent ready to announce them. I anticipated them available later this year at the earliest. Then out of nowhere, the original purchaser of the very first set from over a year ago just surfaced "hammerhead" We did not think he was ever going to show with these installed (lol-) No offense to him what so ever. I am glad he is here now ready to chime in and provide valuable info. He may provide the manifold pics here as well.

    kou xiong -- I am sorry that Aaron has not got back to you. He gets QUITE busy, and he has his own cars to deal with as well. Hopefully you will hear from him, I am sure he has not forgot about you.

  12. #10
    Stock Twins King Stu Hagen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfred View Post
    All right! Wooo Hooo!
    But link to gt28r conversion doesnt work. Darn

    FIXED

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Hagen View Post
    Ken, I knew of these, but at that time, we werent ready to announce them. I anticipated them available later this year at the earliest. Then out of nowhere, the original purchaser of the very first set from over a year ago just surfaced "hammerhead" We did not think he was ever going to show with these installed (lol-) No offense to him what so ever. I am glad he is here now ready to chime in and provide valuable info. He may provide the manifold pics here as well.


    No biggie, my friend. I think I made the smart choice for my particular circumstances. Besides, I'm sure that polished piping you sold me is good for another 10 whp or so! If I get another 1-2 years of solid BPU status from these, I will be more than happy. Thanks for all your help and for all the work you have done on behalf of the community with these hybrids. Pretty amazing stuff, I tell ya.

    Ken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenHenderson View Post
    Subscribed. I just purchased a pair of OEM hybrid turbos tested by Stu Hagen and Aaron for my red BPU car. I did not know the possibility of hybrid GT28Rs or I might have held out for those. Be that as it may, other than a change in intake filters from HKS to Blitz, the only change on my car will be the "original" OEM hybrids, so my power gains should be representative of what one can expect with these turbos and no other changes. Of course a good tune will be necessary but I figure most going this route will have that covered.

    Bonz, thanks for the PMs (you, too, Steve T.). Just want to make sure. Is the person you referenced in your original post installing the original OEM hybrids or the GT28Rs referenced in your thread title? Just trying to keep up with the anticipated flow of information. TIA,

    Ken.
    Ken,

    He's installing the original GT28R's with his modified manifold. On another quick note I'll be going the HKS F-CON V-PRO route with these
    With the significant gains in area under the curve on your red car and the positive results from so many I bet it will complement these quite nicely!

    Brian
    Last edited by bonz; 07-16-2007 at 06:11 AM. Reason: grammar

  15. #13
    I love sequentials!
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    Stu,

    Do you mind if I post pictures of my turbos that I sent you wayyyyyy back?

    I'd like you to compare them to what you have, I believe they are also 28r hybrids, but since I bought them 2nd hand from Japan, I'm not sure.

    Let me know




    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Hagen View Post
    Now..........we can get to specifics!

    Over the last 4 years, there has been a lot of talk about hybrids. Few have every came up with anything concrete. Europe and Australia have made more advancements in this area than the US. There are a couple of people in this forum who have done this. Krister being one. Following his thread for over a year was really interesting. It ended up more of a disappointment than anything else. After spending WAY more than there value, and producing much less HP than expected, it finally died away. The saddest part was after he removed these and sold them off to another Supra owner, his car got stolen, along with the hybrids.

    So in came Aaron, a member here, and a turbo engineer with GE. He and I collaborated and he came up with the first beta series T30 60mm turbos.
    http://97supraturbo.com/New%20Turbo%...OEM-Hybrid.JPG
    I supplied most all the materials Aaron had the hybrids made. These are currently on my car as we speak. They have made 501 whp in Vegas, and 534 whp here where I live. Both were just about at 20psi. (all this in my original thread from a year ago). We have about 20 sets out there still being tested. There has been a 630+whp on these with an undisclosed shot. His turbos have since bit the dust (he ran them at 28psi) So the limits to these are around 22-24 psi safely. The good news is there value, the downside is they still use the OEM shaft and turbine. I have literally beat the crap out of these and they are still doing very well. 3 HPDE and several drag runs with no issues. My minimum boost is 17.6 and maximum is 22 psi. These are true "drop-in" turbos. What I mean is removing the band clamps/oil and water lines, and your done.

    Then came another turbo builder who had made a trial set of turbos with a true drop in GT28R set of cartridges. These require a lot more work to install since these no longer use the band clamp installation, and do not use OEM water and Oil lines. This individual knows turbos quite well. They use the same OEM compressor housing and all other stock piping, etc. The EBV and WG actuators are modified slightly because they no longer use the same "flappers". Other than that, completely stock looking.

    The first beta tester for these goes by "hammerhead" here on the forums. He has made a custom manifold that would compliment these turbos. He also is doing a mock up set of oil and water lines. Hopefully he will be done soon and provide some dynos based on his level of mods. I should have mine installed by September. We are going to make several sets for testing. Right now, I have sent in 12 sets. Hopefully there will be more interest and we can some of these out there instead of myself and hammerhead. PM me for further details.

    Here again are what the GT28R look like.http://97supraturbo.com/GT28R%20Turb...Conversion.pdf

    These have been balanced to 24psi. They have a 33% larger shaft, and a larger Turbine. Estimate output is about 20% more than the ones I have now. This maybe a little lower with lesser mods than myself. Again, its all really unknown until more people start providing dynos, etc.

    Keep in mind that these will probably be twice the cost as the ones I am currently running. So these, once marketed by someone, will be pushing the "single" cost factor. So they won't appeal to everyone. I should also mention that both these set-ups will run sequential. I cannot vouch for these new GT28R's as yet, as far as how well they perform sequential, but they are designed to run sequential. Although they could run TTC as well.

    In conjunction to upgraded turbo's, I have also designed a small electronic #1 turbo boost controller that plumbs into the stock EBV VSV location. It basically will control the stock VSV to operate at different adjustable thresholds than how the OEM ECU controls it now. No extra hose routings required. It can adjust the boost levels from 10 -18 psi. Hopefully I will have these available at Speedforsale in a month or so. Just need testing.

    Stu Hagen


    4 six speed turbos
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    Subscribed, I would be very happy if I could hit 475whp through an auto with these! I really want to keep the sleeper thing going. So if we go with these some form of engine management would be necessary correct? MAP ECU, VPC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonz View Post
    Ken,

    He's installing the original GT28R's with his modified manifold. On another quick note I'll be going the HKS F-CON V-PRO route with these
    With the significant gains in area under the curve on your red car and the positive results from so many I bet it will complement these quite nicely!

    Brian

    Brian,

    Couldn't agree more. The V Pro will be like frosting on the cake and, I'm tellin' ya, you will be thrilled about the area under the curve each and every time you drive the car.

    boost dr, I'd be thrilled with 475 whp though a 6MT. I made 415 [email protected] psi with my current turbos, so I don't have the "ringer" version turbos that other BPU cars have shown with their 440-460 whp power ratings. I'd really like a nice 500 whp, but I don't think that's in the cards for me without cams and a "devil's in the details" program like Stu's.

    Ken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Hagen View Post
    Ken, I knew of these, but at that time, we werent ready to announce them. I anticipated them available later this year at the earliest. Then out of nowhere, the original purchaser of the very first set from over a year ago just surfaced "hammerhead" We did not think he was ever going to show with these installed (lol-) No offense to him what so ever. I am glad he is here now ready to chime in and provide valuable info. He may provide the manifold pics here as well.
    Below are pics of the manifold described above.





    As said in earlier threads, talk of these almost always gets the thread locked. When Bryan Spoke of them he got banned. So without having hard evidence, I kept my mouth shut. I initially planned on putting these on when I first recieved them, But change of jobs/location etc. Forced me to wait.

    As well as the new manifold production. Everyone I turned to, wanted nothing to do with it. Luckily I found someone who was, and they did a great job. If I had more time, Id send it to China to have a Cast copy made.

    Sorry For the long wait guys. Since I am not a fabricator myself, I had a hard time making the Lines look As stock as possible. But they look very good and hide themselves nicely under the heatshield.

  19. #17
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    Nice development. In terms of plumping around the turbos (manifold, turbo collectors), what's the major restrictions and how much hp can they support?

    Too bad there are no good upgrades for the JDM CT20 as they have larger shafts. But then, the turbine would need to be replaced on those as well.

    Weight is also a huge factor to me which makes single options more tempting.
    Last edited by TeCKis300; 07-16-2007 at 09:38 AM.

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    hammerhead,
    we have a very good contact to get castings made and machined in China ...this is quality stuff not crap like I've seen from some sources. We have several cast stainless steel valve parts that we sell and after loosing some domestic sources due to shutdowns, foundry fires, lack of interest due to our low to marginal quantities, we went with these guys and the quality of both the castings and machined pieces has been excellent ...and extremely reasonable by my estimation.

    I estimate that the casting tooling for a manifold like this would be in the $2000 to $2500 range and that tooling would last many years and even thousands of sets, more than is likely in the product life. Machining seems simple with just facing the flanges properly and maybe drill/ream the bolt holes.

    Anyway, if you're interested in pursuing this drop me a PM and if you already have drawings for the fabricated manifold, we can make casting drawings from that.

    Maybe somebody here might even have brilliant ideas on optimizing this casting, such as angling the ports to match the head port angles (which as you know are not straight shots out) or adding brackets for other stuff ...this kind of thing would barely add cost, if any at all.
    Nick 95 6sp
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  21. #19
    GO 'Cats! bonz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick 95 6sp View Post
    I estimate that the casting tooling for a manifold like this would be in the $2000 to $2500 range and that tooling would last many years and even thousands of sets, more than is likely in the product life. Machining seems simple with just facing the flanges properly and maybe drill/ream the bolt holes.

    Sounds like a great idea if we get enough of a $$ push behind it. I'll help if this ends up seeming like a really good option in the final analysis.

    [QUOTE=Nick 95 6sp;5329529]
    Maybe somebody here might even have brilliant ideas on optimizing this casting, such as angling the ports to match the head port angles (which as you know are not straight shots out) or adding brackets for other stuff ...this kind of thing would barely add cost, if any at all.


    I would like an extended through the firewall honest to god cast cup holder on mine, ok? But seriously any flow junkies want to speak to this....see if we can optimize some things.
    Last edited by bonz; 07-16-2007 at 11:10 AM.

  22. #20
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    Crazy shit

  23. #21
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    Interesting. I like the sequential setup myself. This would be a good upgrade if I go that route. Currently I am BPU running 20PSI max on the auto trans.

  24. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by INFINITE View Post
    Crazy shit
    Manny Alves ring a bell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonz View Post
    Manny Alves ring a bell?
    Seriously! I have seen about an infinite number of responses from this guy which were no mroe than 2 words that made no sense to the context of the thread.

  26. #24
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    If that is him I kindly ask a mod. to get him out of what may soon be a very good thread. Thanks.

  27. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonz View Post
    If that is him I kindly ask a mod. to get him out of what may soon be a very good thread. Thanks.
    I would bet my mortage it's him. Same MO. Lots of one and two-word posts, 20 or more coming one right after the other fairly late in the evening, all in an effort to get to 200 posts ASAP so he can begin scamming anew. There's a new thread on him in the Buyer/Seller subforum started by Ranger but he (Ranger) is not moving fast enough, IMO. Okay, I'll stay on topic, now.

    Ken.

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