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Thread: Crank Walk Documentation

  1. #101
    VVT-i FTW ProjekT_SuprA's Avatar
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    Reading this thread has scared me a little. It's odd that such a powerful engine would be subjected to a condition only seen in weaker engines so easily. Any luck on finding ways to cure crankwalk other than disabling the clutch switch? I know of 2JZ engines that rev up to 10k and have never had problems. Must be the way you build your engine, I guess. It seems stock shortblocks have more of a tendency to crankwalk than modified ones? I dunno... just speculating.
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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSupra93 View Post
    I wired mine to a hidden switch. When I want to start the car, I flip the switch, start the car, and flip the switch back to off. If anyone tries to steal my car, they will be very confused why it doesn't start.

    All I did was unplug the connector and run a wire to and from the switch. if you wanted the connection open all the time, just loop a wire from one side of the initial plug to the other.
    oh cool thats easy enough , Thanks man !!
    YOU WILL NOT WIN CUZ I WILL NOT LOSE

  4. #103
    Where to now? SMP142's Avatar
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    this is yet another reason why i am installing an oil accumulator....

    ^^^^edit: btw, you do know your sig says "loose" and not "lose" right? ^^^^^
    Last edited by SMP142; 08-30-2009 at 09:46 PM.

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  6. #104
    VVT-i FTW ProjekT_SuprA's Avatar
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    He's right. Not to be hypocritical, but nothing says noob like a poorly grammarized sig, I'd change that if I were you.

  7. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMP142 View Post
    this is yet another reason why i am installing an oil accumulator....

    ^^^^edit: btw, you do know your sig says "loose" and not "lose" right? ^^^^^
    lol i just realized that , ill fix it right now , i made the same mistake before !!

  8. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProjekT_SuprA View Post
    He's right. Not to be hypocritical, but nothing says noob like a poorly grammarized sig, I'd change that if I were you.
    sry i speak read and write 5 different languages , i make mistakes it happened before i just didnt realize i wrote it wrong again , sry

  9. #107

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    ok fixed

  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysideways View Post
    I'm asking myself why did I just find this thread??? I installed the RPS (blue) PP over winter and yesterday I was taking off from a stop sign to right hand turn and the car shuttered. It will only do this when turning and only if i accelerate before the clutch is fully out. If I take off straight no noise and if I let out slow then accelerate through a corner no noise.

    Am I the newest victim of crankwalk? Is it too late to do anything about it? I will be doing the clutch bypass mod before starting it up again.

    Thanks.


    Doh
    I just found this thread and have newly installed aristo motor...

    I'm surprised nobody has come up with a revised thrust washer setup - it seems like an Achilles heel for these otherwise bulletproof motors!

    What are the symptoms while running?

    Any noises or things to be wary of?
    Last edited by Black R; 10-17-2009 at 10:21 AM.

  11. #109
    SupraForums Member CHETT's Avatar
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    In a Smallblock Chevy engine, crankshaft thrust is an actual part of the main bearings, not a mincy metal insert like the one found in the 2jz. Look at the picture below. Does the face of that bearing look familiar? Ignore whats circled, I stole this picture from somewhere on the internet.



    If your wondering what's in the circle i'll tell ya......It's an old Super Stock/Stock eliminator trick that I have used on countless occasions on big and small chevy's. The idea is to chamfer the edge of the rear main bearing so that pressurized oil runs through the half circle around the upper bearing and then some will be diverted along the chamfer (in the circle) and oil both sides of the thrust....TA DAAAA!!! this will prevent oil starvation under full throttle shifts.

  12. #110
    Looks best in drag Ki11bert's Avatar
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    OK. I would like to do a short summary for those of you who are asking how to tell for signs of crank walk.

    Extremely small crank walk WILL NOT be noticeable.

    Moderate crank walk can be found by:

    1. Observing the Harmonic Balancer when the engine is idling. Have someone push in the clutch and observe any forward or back movement (thrust). Any movement forward or back is respective to the type of clutch on the car (push or pull type). If it's an automatic, you can put the car in drive, hold the brakes, and rev it to stall speed. If any visible thrust is present, the crank is walking. Do the same procedure with the engine off, transmission in neutral. This is why I say that minor crank walk will not be noticeable. Nobody can see .005" of thrust with their eyes.

    2. Once the vehicle has warmed up, push the clutch in while idling. If the engine drops in RPM, begins to stumble, or sound like it's working harder, the crank is walking.

    3. With the engine idling, lightly depress the clutch. Do not fully depress it. Just when it begins to engage, feel for any awkward vibration or pulsation. If you feel some, more than likely the crank is walking. This in some cases can be confused with a bad throwout bearing.

    Heavy crank walk will produce:

    1. Extreme load when clutch is depressed, resulting in severe drop in RPM or engine stall.
    2. Major pedal pulsation while engaging clutch
    3. Metallic oil
    4. Very visible harmonic balancer thrust either forward or backwards. (again, push or pull type clutch)

    It is worth noting that even moderate crank walk can result in catastrophic engine failure. At this point, the engine should be thoroughly inspected.

    What is happening ECACTLY? Well, in short summary, the engine is wearing itself to death. Engine internals are not meant to experience much lateral thrust. A tiny bit (.005) is normal, however once the thrust washers wear to the limit, the connecting rods begin to "bind" by going up and down at an unintended angle. This causes wear to the face of the connecting rod and crank journal. The crank will also wear at the main journals. (see page one for pictures of the main cap worn entirely) Rod bearings will wear to one side or the other, with respect to the direction of the thrust. At this point, the engine has begun to wear catastrophically. Eventually the thrust washers will have worn so thin that they will fall right out of their positions on the face of the main and cap. Once this happens, the crank will walk forward and backward only to the limit of the angle the connecting rods can sustain before they either fail, or the engine stalls. When this happens, like it did in my case, absolutely NOTHING in the block is reusable. The walk was so bad, the timing reluctor (or timing pulley attached to the crank as most call it) was wearing into the face of the oil pump. Furthermore, if you look at page one, you can see a pile of bent thrust washers sitting in a pile. While making the last drive home before the engine failed, I actually heard one of the thrust washers fall out of its' slot and get thrown around in the engine by the crank. It was a very faint pinging that lasted for about 3 seconds. That explains why it twisted and contorted.

    I hope this helps all of you. Bypass that clutch switch!!

    Sincerely,
    Ki11bert

  13. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ki11bert View Post
    I am documenting my crank walk experience for you guys. I also have questions for you at the end of this thread.

    v160
    ACT Xtreme
    GTE Bottom End

    Occured after about two years of driving with this clutch. I tried to get it off the road in time but the last mile home was terrible. I also did not disable the clutch switch like I should have. Boy am I paying for that mistake..






    My questions:
    1. Aside from the damage to the block in picture two, there isn't much other visible damage to the block. The face of a few mains look a tad banged up. What should I be looking for also on the block? Will an experienced machine shop be able to give me an answer by visually inspecting the block and caps?
    2. The crank is a major concern. It's very hard to see any damage on the journals of the crank, but there has to be some. When should I consider replacing it instead of having it fixed?
    3. I noticed the rod bearings are a matte light blue. Is this normal or have I experienced actual bluing? The back of the bearings look normal.
    4. There were shavings in the pickup. Can I clean it out sufficiently or do I need a new one?
    5. After something like this, how trustworthy is even a well-fixed block? I spin this motor to 8600rpms.

    I hope we can build on this thread.

    Kill

    Get a new block and crank because even if you manage to fix the block and you get a new crank you wount have your peace of mind back because youll be thinking about the problem if it shows up again

  14. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProjekT_SuprA View Post
    Reading this thread has scared me a little. It's odd that such a powerful engine would be subjected to a condition only seen in weaker engines so easily. Any luck on finding ways to cure crankwalk other than disabling the clutch switch? I know of 2JZ engines that rev up to 10k and have never had problems. Must be the way you build your engine, I guess. It seems stock shortblocks have more of a tendency to crankwalk than modified ones? I dunno... just speculating.

    That is the true prayer of a supra owner, and yea your rignt when you buy a fixed up block the crank is the part that is payed the most to attention when building

  15. #113
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    I have had a rps stage 3 clutch for almost a year and because of my recent front main seal failure (started leaking heavily a few weeks ago and I immediately parked the car and haven't drove it since) and I think I might have crankwalk but im not sure. But the only thing is that I have almost no symptoms of it walking. Granted I have not tried watching to see if the pulley moves when the car was on but I have tried to see if there is any play when the clutch was pressed with the car off and there was none. I have also tried using a pry bar and gently seeing if there was any movement and everything seemed normal. My rpms did not drop when the clutch is engaged nor did I feel any vibration when the clutch was pressed. The only thing that leads me to believe that it MIGHT be crankwalk is I have what looks to me like a groove from the timing gear on the oil pump. It doesnt look fresh nor does the back of the timing gear/star look scraped up but you never know. Anyone have any ideas?

    Since this has happened, it has been sitting for a few weeks and I just got around to pulling the front main seal today and the to my surprise the spring had fallen out. I have heard of cases where this would happen resulting in massive leaks from the seal so now im thinking it might be just the seal? This still doesnt explain the scarring on my oil pump though. Im going to get a new seal on monday and put it in and see what happens.

  16. #114
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    Good news. Got the new seal in and together the day of tx2k10 and drove it to Houston and 30+ pulls without any issues.

  17. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftsk8r View Post
    Good news. Got the new seal in and together the day of tx2k10 and drove it to Houston and 30+ pulls without any issues.
    great to hear

  18. #116

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    Ouch, i just disabled the neutral safety switch

  19. #117

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    I am working with a friend on the same issue at hand here.
    His car would stall at an idle and I think that it was due to the crank angle sensor not reading.
    A friend that was over saved the motor when he heard what sounded like metal when the clutch was pushed in.
    On a hunch we looked in the oil pan and that's when our jaws drop, we found one of the thrust washers in the pan.
    Need less to say it was caught in time.
    I don't understand why they can't make another main cap the thrust main as well to have 2 or possibly 3 areas to insure that there wont be any more crank walk.
    Thanks to TurboCorey our friend nvusmkiv did not loose the engine.

  20. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Ki11bert View Post
    OK. I would like to do a short summary for those of you who are asking how to tell for signs of crank walk.

    Extremely small crank walk WILL NOT be noticeable.

    Moderate crank walk can be found by:

    1. Observing the Harmonic Balancer when the engine is idling. Have someone push in the clutch and observe any forward or back movement (thrust). Any movement forward or back is respective to the type of clutch on the car (push or pull type). If it's an automatic, you can put the car in drive, hold the brakes, and rev it to stall speed. If any visible thrust is present, the crank is walking. Do the same procedure with the engine off, transmission in neutral. This is why I say that minor crank walk will not be noticeable. Nobody can see .005" of thrust with their eyes.

    2. Once the vehicle has warmed up, push the clutch in while idling. If the engine drops in RPM, begins to stumble, or sound like it's working harder, the crank is walking.

    3. With the engine idling, lightly depress the clutch. Do not fully depress it. Just when it begins to engage, feel for any awkward vibration or pulsation. If you feel some, more than likely the crank is walking. This in some cases can be confused with a bad throwout bearing.

    Heavy crank walk will produce:

    1. Extreme load when clutch is depressed, resulting in severe drop in RPM or engine stall.
    2. Major pedal pulsation while engaging clutch
    3. Metallic oil
    4. Very visible harmonic balancer thrust either forward or backwards. (again, push or pull type clutch)

    It is worth noting that even moderate crank walk can result in catastrophic engine failure. At this point, the engine should be thoroughly inspected.

    What is happening ECACTLY? Well, in short summary, the engine is wearing itself to death. Engine internals are not meant to experience much lateral thrust. A tiny bit (.005) is normal, however once the thrust washers wear to the limit, the connecting rods begin to "bind" by going up and down at an unintended angle. This causes wear to the face of the connecting rod and crank journal. The crank will also wear at the main journals. (see page one for pictures of the main cap worn entirely) Rod bearings will wear to one side or the other, with respect to the direction of the thrust. At this point, the engine has begun to wear catastrophically. Eventually the thrust washers will have worn so thin that they will fall right out of their positions on the face of the main and cap. Once this happens, the crank will walk forward and backward only to the limit of the angle the connecting rods can sustain before they either fail, or the engine stalls. When this happens, like it did in my case, absolutely NOTHING in the block is reusable. The walk was so bad, the timing reluctor (or timing pulley attached to the crank as most call it) was wearing into the face of the oil pump. Furthermore, if you look at page one, you can see a pile of bent thrust washers sitting in a pile. While making the last drive home before the engine failed, I actually heard one of the thrust washers fall out of its' slot and get thrown around in the engine by the crank. It was a very faint pinging that lasted for about 3 seconds. That explains why it twisted and contorted.

    I hope this helps all of you. Bypass that clutch switch!!

    Sincerely,
    Ki11bert

    Hard left turns also causes the clutch hydraulic pressure to drop and you wont be able to engage in any gear. Once a crank walks YOU SHOULD NEVER RE USE THAT CRANK! Once the crank has walked and it's repaired there is a very good chance it will happen again.

    I was sort of surprised seeing this thread on a supra forum, for a second I thought I was on a dsm forum lol.

  21. #119

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    well a good read... thanks to all.
    My only comment after working on not many engines, but all different makes, is that the load on the stock thrust bearings is low, and the increased load is the problem on most engines, DSM's being the exception. the link didn't work so I couldn't see what the issue was.

    Also I think that mod to increase Oil flow to the thrust washers was excellent, small, so not much effect on the main, but a big effect on the thrust washer lubrication. And are we sure this is actually being checked, the clearance that is, when engines are being re-built. Maybe they are being overlooked !!

  22. #120
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    Just dropped the oil pan on my Supra. Found 3 messed up thrust washers sitting at the bottom. I've had the RPS Blue clutch for a few months and I'm pretty sure that's the main cause. Just a warning for everyone so my engine didn't go completely to waste.

  23. #121
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    Forgive my ignorance, but if I'm starting it with the clutch pedal in, doesn't that mean that the pressure plate is not engaged, why would it have to be in neutral as well?

    I've never heard of crank-walk on the 2jz before, not that I'm arguing it can't happen, just that it's not notorious for it, like say..2nd gen DSM motors *shudder*.

    Quote Originally Posted by earl3 View Post
    You start it in *neutral* with the clutch out so the engine doesn't have the force of the pressure plate pushing it without oil.

  24. #122
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    quick question guys and i am sorry if this has been already addressed in the thread but would billet caps be needed for a 800-1000whp car if its an automatic? Ive had 2 personal friends have crank walk at around 700-900 hp but there stick cars so i was hoping that was the deciding factor in it. Any help would be awsome before i start my build.

  25. #123
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    Pay attention to this people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ki11bert View Post
    2. Once the vehicle has warmed up, push the clutch in while idling. If the engine drops in RPM, begins to stumble, or sound like it's working harder, the crank is walking.

    3. With the engine idling, lightly depress the clutch. Do not fully depress it. Just when it begins to engage, feel for any awkward vibration or pulsation. If you feel some, more than likely the crank is walking. This in some cases can be confused with a bad throwout bearing.
    Both of these symptom's are present in my son's 1JZ powered MkIII. The prior owner installed a ACT Extreme 6-puck clutch, and never disabled the neutral start safety switch! That, and he beat the living hell out of it! 1J's can take the abuse, I know I own a 1J Supra too, l but once that thrust washer is toast, you're faced with the issue of repairing, or, as my son is planning on, installing a 2JZ-GTE bottom end.
    Thanks for your diagnosis. We are no longer in denial!
    ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES!!!2016themovie.com

  26. #124
    SupraForums Member ophidicus's Avatar
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    anybody know about a W58 Causing Crankwalking? I know it's a push type tranny I am in the middle of a R154 Swap myself and I know the R154 and V160 is a pull type just curious to see if a push type can do the same damage with a stiffer clutch?
    1995 Single Turbo 6 Speed Hardtop
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  27. #125
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    Also avoid sitting on the clutch at red lights :/

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