Last edited by Suprafied; 02-24-2014 at 09:49 AM.
Do more with less......
'95 Toyota Supra TT 6-spd Targa JRR/MoTeC M130 , Accelerated Performance , Sound Performance, Tilton, Precision, Recaro, HKS, ID, Radium, PHR, ETS, OS Giken....
My Build Thread
'16 Lexus IS350 AWD F-Sport
'09 Dodge Ram 3500 QCLB Dually 6.7 CTD EFI Live by Anarchy
'05 Toyota Camry XLE - 275K and rolling!
V160 oil = 08885-01306
type t-iv = 00279-000t4 sku/upc = 71924-00334
Thankyou guys very much and to Doug for the GREAT breakdown analysis. Top notch
I am actually a BIG fan of both the V160 & T-IV for their respected transmission application. I have been using both w/o complaint.
ALPINE 6spd BPU
BLACK 6spd SP71-APU J. Nenni Tuned
BLACK SC/GTE BL62-APU BUILT R154 4"DP/MP dual APEXI'S - SOLD
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1997 Alpine Silver Metallic APU 6spd \\ ProEFI w/iBoost ->>> 685whp @ 25lbs E85 \\ RPS Carbon Carbon \\ Precision 6766 Billet DBB \\ SP QSV \\ Do-Luck Cross Bar \\ HKS Hipermax III \\ HKS FMIC \\ HKS Ti-Race 4" \\ GSC S1 \\ TRD LSD \\ TRD Wheel \\ TRD Oil Cap \\ TRD Wing \\ RMM Lip \\ Sparco Milano \\ Stu Hagen Gauges \\ TWM Abrams \\ Valentine 1 \\ CCW LM5 18x10 18x11.5 \\ Toyo R888 315/30 & 285/30
I commend you guys for spending the time and effort, but I think this is picking fly shit out of pepper. The spec for the oil is Dexron II based on the ESSO D21065 spec provided in the New Car Features manual. John Cribb and I chased this to ground years ago thinking we'd get a barrel of the ESSO stuff and provide it to the Supra community for a lot less than what Toyota charges. John has contacts in the petroleum industry. He works for an oil company. Dexron II is nothing special, and Dexron III is considered (by all the industry people) to be a perfectly acceptable replacement for Dexron II.
The issue with Red Line's D-4 was pretty simple. Red Line told me (many years ago) that D-4 was the preferred ATF for our application. The problem with D-4 is, it has a very light viscosity and they pushed the seal swell (yes, every ATF has seal swell in it to different amounts) to the maximum allowable for ATF to ensure their super thin oil does not leak out of old seals. I have to say, it did most assuredly stop the shift shaft leakage I'd had from the very beginning which Toyota never did fix. Anybody else's Dexron III (Red Line D-4 is NOT Dexron III) works fine for the application. Really.
Again I commend you guys for your work, but at the end of the day, the petroleum engineers don't look at the additive packages for ATF the same way Blackstone does. Blackstone is doing mass spectrometry to determine what elements are in the oil. Tribololgists (petroleum engineers) are looking at the ratios of the additives, their carrier oils, and the base stock used to make the product. Dexron of all flavors has ranges of acceptable for the additives. If all of these oils meet (or exceed) Dexron III specs, then they're all considered acceptable replacements for Dexron II. I am certain the Toyota T-IV is not considered Dexron II or Dexron III compatible or it would have been possible to run Dexron II or Dexron III in the Supra's automatics. Using anything other than Toyota T-IV was well documented to be disastrous, so I am not nearly as convinced T-IV is an acceptable substitute for any Dex, and ESSO D21065 is undoubtedly Dexron II.
Having been all through the gearbox myself, having replaced all the synchros (got them sitting in a box if anyone wants to see them, I can post pics) and the synchro hubs (BTW, I only did this to update them to the more common second generation pieces), all the bearings and all the seals, I can very specifically vouch for NO WEAR ISSUES related to lubrication despite running Red Line D-4 in my Getrag for a couple of years. The only reason I replaced all these parts (at a total cost of $2.2k) was because I had no idea what I was going to encounter, so I figured I'd replace anything and everything on principle. I did crack a synchro outer ring, but it was purely my fault by overly forcefully asking that little synchro to stop first gear while moving at 20 mph. This is first gear, on a scale with the weight in grams:
This is why I never shift into first at any speed over a dead stop anymore. That and the nastly little rolled sheet metal "pins" used to hold the shifter forks on the shift shafts...but I digress. You can see the shift forks here:
Again, thanks guys, I've spent a lot of money with Blackstone over the years (I ran the WS ATF from my IS-F through their lab to see how it was doing not too long ago) and I know a big comparo like this takes both time and money. At the end of the day, it's not nearly as exact a science as we'd like to believe it is.
If you really want to learn about ATF and why it isn''t all black magic (and why a lot of what you've tested isn't exactly what you might think) take a look at http://www.aftonchemical.com/Solutio...nsmission.aspx
Last edited by lo bux racer; 02-24-2014 at 11:28 AM.
'16 URL10L-FEZRHA Atomic Silver/Circuit Red
'08 USE20L−FEZRHA Obsidian/Black
'93 JZA80L-ALFVZA Alpine Silver/Black
Most performance mods need a watch and timed course to demonstrate actual improvement. Few deliver the advertised claims. Many are actually worse than stock. The best performance mods are made to the driver.
Emotional arguments - They're not just for chicks anymore.
^ I agree there is more science to this than what I discovered. I by no means is a chemicial engineer, but am a Mech/Ind engineer by degree and profession.
This information was just to bridge gaps that have been apparent over the last number of years.
Thx for all testing. BUT I will never be changing my RP. 15 years and NEVER an issue, Trans shifts better, quieter, no problems. I don't need a test to tell me what has worked. So not sure what the testing was trying to accomplish aside from maybe ruling out some fluids that are way off. Sorry but the Toyota v160 fluid shifts like crap at high rpm in comparison and price is ridiculous too.
Last edited by Silver Bullet; 02-24-2014 at 12:27 PM.
1994 Alpine Silver 6spd
When I need a good read, I can sit on the shitter, look up at walls at my degrees, and read through all this....I see the point and totally understand...BUT 100K miles , shifting at 9500 banging gears for over 15 years using RP absolutely is a standard and a test environment I can go by. Might want to get out and try it sometime. Anyhow...as i said thx for testing.
Last edited by Silver Bullet; 02-24-2014 at 12:53 PM.
What i understand V160 fuild in list..
1.Toyota V160 fuild
2. Royal perpal
This may seem like a silly question, but what colour is the Toyota V160?
My tranny is leaking red fluid and I'm trying to figure out which fluid the previous owner used. I'm also pretty certain the leak is not from the shifter seal.
Last edited by telram; 02-25-2014 at 06:05 AM.
1993.5 Supra RZ - 6 Speed
Garett GT4294R, AEM EMS v1, AEM UEGO, AEM Injector Driver, HKS DLI, BC 272 Cams, BC Springs & Retainers, Dual Walbro 255l, Precision 1000cc Injectors, Exedy Triple Disk Clutch, Chromoly Drive Shaft, Custom 4" Exhaust, Turbosmart 60mm Wastegate, Turbosmart 52mm BOV, Mishmoto BC Aluminium Radiator, Dual Electric Fans, 4" FMIC
616whp/517wtq @ 20 PSI (Mustang Dyno)
Factory V160 fluid is red
-95 widebody 6 speed
-95 built targa 6 speed
Thanks for the testing and comments guys, I'm gonna give it a go with the Royal Purple fluids on my shelf, since I already have them.
So the oils that were tested are "virgin" oils correct? Is there going to be a part two coming soon with samples that were used in real world conditions? Data is data but it would be nice to see how the oils break down over time.
Thanks to all that contributed. I agree with Silver Bullet -- in the real world, RP has performed better for me in both of my 6sp Supras vs OEM V160 fluid.
1993 Supra TT 6sp Hardtop -- 1115WHP -- 190MPH 1/2 mile
2009 Corvette ZR1 -- 640WHP -- 10.12 @ 138.3MPH
2007 Corvette coupe -- 500WHP -- Procharger P1SC
2013 Infiniti G37x
2010 Escalade ESV
1994 Supra TT 6sp BPU -- 11.8 @ 118MPH
1997 Supra TT Auto BPU -- 12.0 @ 122MPH
1994 Supra 6sp -- 72mm, VPC/AFC, stock longblock -- 722WHP & 10.36 @ 139.5MPH
1993.5 Supra TT Auto BPU
again thanks for all of those who contributed. I am so greatful to be part of a comunity that people still are putting time efford and money for r&d ect into a car that hasnt been produced in the us for 16 years. In all honestly some of these lambos and such are amazing but there isnt a car i would take over an mkiv supra.
Op i have a question what would you call high amounts of torque? ive been back and forth some time now over what fluid to run in my trans and now its time to make a decioion so i can put this thing in the car. orignally i was just gonna suck it up and go the v160 fluid but ultimately it may be available now but no gaurentees it will be next time im ready for a fluid change so i just asume change it up now and im not sure what will be my best alternative. im unsure of the milage on my trans as i recieved it out of a car but did have 2 past owners say that it worked great with no noises and or grinds. i know before i got it it did have rp inside. i wont be doing any road racing but the car will see some strip and dig racing aswell as roll racing. ill be around the 750ft lbs of torque this go round and will be shifting at a higher rpm over stock. is that would you would consiter a high torque level? i need to see what is going to be the best alternative fluid for me the castrol toyota t-iv or the rp.
Several years ago, I made the somewhat audacious statement that the V160 fluid was nothing special. https://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...160&highlight= I said then, that V160 is most likely just standard Dexron II. I still stand by that. Just because it comes in a nice shiny can, inside a box and it cost $35/liter doesn't mean its special. It just allows Toyota to make more profit off the fluid. This is no different than the 'o'ring that Toyota sells for $3 in an individual bag which you can get bulk for $0.05. Even Kalrez 'o'rings (Perfluoroelastomer) do not cost anywhere near what Toyota charges for a regular old viton or nitrile 'o'ring. On the V160 oil not being special, don't just take my word for it, think about the math and the economics. What petroleum products company is going to develop a specially formulated oil for a production run of less than 200-300 barrels which would more than meet the needs over the full lifetime of the vehicle? The V160 is not that much different from any other manual tranny, an assembly of gears, syncros, rod, shift forks and some seals. The 'o' rings and other seals are either standard nitrile or Viton (unlikely but possibly Polyacrylate) which will react to petroleum fluids in a predictable way. I have been on this forum a long time and I have only heard of one documented case where the transmission fluid caused a failure. That was the shift return bushing swell problem associated with Redline D-4 which contained a high level of seal swell additive. It has since created lots of paranoia but little based upon scientific evidence. I still wish to pass my appreciation onto the group for doing the test. It's still an interesting topic. BTW: The latest recommended fluid for Getrag and BMW transmissions (1997 on) is Pentosin MTF 2. If you check the spec sheet it is almost identical in every category to Royal Purple SyncroMax. hmmmmm Pentosin produces OEM fluids (manual transmission, power steering, brake, etc.) for Porsche, Audi, BMW..... including the very expensive Porsche PDK double clutch auto/manual.
94 TT 6-speed, PHR Stage 1 single, PHR fuel rail, 720cc injectors w/ dual Walbro's. GReddy 3-row, MAPECU2.
Great thread and thanks to all who contributed to this test. I can't help but wonder how Toyota's new pricey fluid, World Standard, would compare to all these?
If USA DOT is so tightly controlled... then why did it take them 15 years to finally ban it from our shelves? That’s another topic... we’re talking about gear oil. “Gear Oil” is not a “Fluid” it is an “OIL”. American Petroleum Institute (API) sets the classification for OILS, not the Department of Transportation (DOT)The color of automotive fluids in the USA is tightly controlled by the DOT. AS an aside: They just made ATE recall 100% of their DOT Super Blue brake fluid because brake fluid must be clear to amber to be DOT approved. http://hooniverse.com/2013/08/16/bra...-distribution/Then you’re an idiot... again DexronII is an ATF... Automatic Transmission Fluid is not an oil, it is a hydraulic fluid. ATF is not formulated to perform as an “oil”, otherwise it would be labeled as an “oil”.Several years ago, I made the somewhat audacious statement that the V160 fluid was nothing special. https://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...160&highlight= I said then, that V160 is most likely just standard Dexron II. I still stand by that.In Japan, ALL BRANDS and TYPES of OILS are only sold in metal cans (some w/boxes), there’s nothing special about it... it’s law and that’s just the way it is. Packaging this way is very expensive and not a profitable scheme to make more money... that’s what plastic bottles are for.Just because it comes in a nice shiny can, inside a box and it cost $35/liter doesn't mean its special. It just allows Toyota to make more profit off the fluid. This is no different than the 'o'ring that Toyota sells for $3 in an individual bag which you can get bulk for $0.05. Even Kalrez 'o'rings (Perfluoroelastomer) do not cost anywhere near what Toyota charges for a regular old viton or nitrile 'o'ring. On the V160 oil not being special, don't just take my word for it, think about the math and the economics.How many years do you consider a “full lifetime” of a vehicle? 10years? 50 years? 100years?What petroleum products company is going to develop a specially formulated oil for a production run of less than 200-300 barrels which would more than meet the needs over the full lifetime of the vehicle?
I’m assured in the begining, all the major petroleum companies had the opportunity to develop a special, low production V160 gear oil. To answer your question, obviously Toyota picked Castrol and Nissan chose Esso. So far, I haven’t had any problems purchasing V160 gear oil from Toyota... and when I do, I will purchase Royal Purple MaxGear 75W-90, which is specially formulated to meet or exceed the specifications of Toyota #08885-01306 V160 gear oil.
http://royalpurpleconsumer.com/wp-co...ence_Chart.pdfThe V160/161 is a low production specially prepared Getrag 6spd manual synchromesh gear transmission found in the Toyota Supras (JZA80) and a limited number of Nissan GTRs (BNR34). (Not all GTR’s, just a special edition… I don’t know which edition.) If this Getrag V160 was no different than other manual transmissions, why didn’t Toyota and Nissan just make their own?The V160 is not that much different from any other manual tranny, an assembly of gears, syncros, rod, shift forks and some seals. The 'o' rings and other seals are either standard nitrile or Viton (unlikely but possibly Polyacrylate) which will react to petroleum fluids in a predictable way. I have been on this forum a long time and I have only heard of one documented case where the transmission fluid caused a failure. That was the shift return bushing swell problem associated with Redline D-4 which contained a high level of seal swell additive. It has since created lots of paranoia but little based upon scientific evidence.
The fact is, the V160/V161 6-spd transmission continues to be one of the best manual transmissions in the world to come equipped in any production vehicle... and apparently capable of withstanding failures when using the wrong oil/fluids.What test? There were no tests performed for oil degradation or ageing rate and there were no results!I still wish to pass my appreciation onto the group for doing the test. It's still an interesting topic.
Dexron II/III, Toyota TIV, Mobil1 ATF, etc… are fluids, not oil. ATF cannot be tested as an “oil”… Blackstone Lab stated their process was,…NOT PERFORMED.
“Total Base Numbers (TBN) analysis was not performed, as it is inaccurate for assessing ATF fluids as compared to engine oils.”Other than the Toyota and Nissan V160 gear oils, the latest recommended gear oil for the V160 is Royal Purple “MaxGear 75W-90”. Royal Purple does NOT recommend their “SynchroMax” for the V160, therefore the PentosinMTF2 won’t be on my list, IF what you are saying is correct. PentosinMTF2 is also a European Oil...BTW: The latest recommended fluid for Getrag and BMW transmissions (1997 on) is Pentosin MTF 2. If you check the spec sheet it is almost identical in every category to Royal Purple SyncroMax. hmmmmm Pentosin produces OEM fluids (manual transmission, power steering, brake, etc.) for Porsche, Audi, BMW..... including the very expensive Porsche PDK double clutch auto.
“ACEA standards recognize that European engines differ from US (style) engines in both their design and operating conditions and that the demands on their oils are also different. This requires the oils used in European engines to be unique and consequently, the classification system for them also needs to be unique. For this reason it is difficult to compare the common API classification and ACEA standards, as the test sequences for them are quite different.”
Very simple… If you are using ATF… remove it. Oil is Oil… ATF is ATF… It is, what it is.