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Thread: The Great V160 Fluid Challenge....

  1. #51
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    good thread but after reading all the posts. it seems the debate is now, should everyone be using RP synchromax which has been used extensively by many members over the years without issue or go by RP recommendation of Maxgear for the v160.

    so what do the long time synchromax users think? Since there has been some test preformed and new perspectives and data brought to light.
    Last edited by dimsumboi; 03-14-2014 at 11:48 AM.

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  3. #52
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    As a long-time user of RP Synchromax, and also a contributor to the test my opinion is there's no reason for me to switch from RP to anything else. I enjoyed seeing all the numbers and I consider the test money well spent.
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    The data brought to light is incomplete, it is just data on "new oil". The only purpose it serves is telling you what is in the oil. To complete the test they should have sent in used samples to show how each of the oils broke down. The problem is it would be hard to put each test sample through the same temperatures and conditions.

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  6. #54
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    No doubt the test was a great contribution to the community, very informative and clear comparisons with the data.

    But from post that choritsu brought up its subject to debate which RP product should be used considering this new information

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    There are so many misconceptions here that they are barely worth even addressing. However, I will just so others might have an opportunity to hear logic vs. ranting. There is a saying: "There are none so blind as those who will not see." I will address one point: Your basic contention that V160 is not Dexron II (or an ATF) and that it is an oil, as well that Dexron, other ATF's and RP Syncromax are all fluids, indicates that you have very little understanding of hydraulics (the study of fluids). The definition of a fluid is: " a substance which can flow. Technically the flow of any substance means a continuous relative motion between different particles of the substance." All oils are therefore fluids. While all fluids are not oils, ATF and specifically Dexron II are oils. By definition an oil is; "any of a large class of substances typically unctuous, viscous, combustible, liquid at ordinary temperatures, and soluble in ether or alcohol but not in water: used for anointing, perfuming, lubricating, illuminating, heating, etc." All ATF's (whether petroleum based or synthetic), Dexron II, and Syncromax meet this criteria and are therefore classified as oils. ATF's are labeled as fluids (actually more specifically as hydraulic fluids) to differentiate their applicability for hydraulic applications (auto tranny's, Power steering, etc). Standard ATF is comprised of about 75% base oil (highly refined petroleum or synthetic) stocks with the remainder being proprietary additives such as viscosity modifier, anti-wear additives, corrosion inhibitors, seal swell agents, etc. Most ATF will have anywhere from 15-20 additives. The two biggest differences between ATF and gear oil are the high pressure additives and viscosity (ATF viscosity would be about 40-50W gear oil or 20W motor oil). Since it seems you have a limited understanding of hydraulics and petroleum products, I will also explain that the SAE uses different viscosity rating systems for motor oil and gear oil. A 75W-90 gear oil is about the same viscosity as 10W-40 engine oil. While I do not consider myself an expert vis-a-vie the chemical makeup of either ATF, gear oil, motor oil or for that matter Syncromax, I can state categorically that they are all fluids and they are also all oils. While not an expert, I do have some credentials that are relevant to the discussion: I have spent just over 34 years in the petroleum industry, I served for several years the Managing Director of an engineering and technology center (revenues >$300M annually) that built complex downhole tools for the oil and gas business. These tools had transmissions that cost several 10's of thousands of dollars and used very exotic materials (silicon carbide seals, Inconel I-718 and MP35N and other superalloys) requiring extremely specialized lubricants. The tools were designed to operate reliably in a highly hostile environment of up to 350 deg F, 20,000 psi pressure and under continuous shock and vibration levels up to 25G's. The V160 environment is a comparative cakewalk. I don't have any delusions that I will convince you, but maybe the other readers will be able to sift through all of this (what you and I have both written) and decide for themselves what makes sense. BTW, I have provided a little background on myself and clearly stated that I am not an "expert". I would be interested to know what are your credentials???

    BTW, if you are still confused about the difference between fluids, oils and lubricants, here's another answer to the question from the experts at Exxon/Mobil1.

    What's the difference between fluids, oils and lubricants?
    -- James Wesley, Southfield, MI

    Answer:
    We think many people use these words interchangeably. The word lubricant is most descriptive of what they all do. Non-engine oils such as power steering, transmission, and shock absorber oils are often referred to as fluids because one of their primary functions is to act as a hydraulic fluid. In most cases, the carrier fluid for the additives used in lubricants is an oil-based compound so the additized product is often referred to as “oil."

    Quote Originally Posted by choritsu-shi View Post
    “Toyota Gear Oil V160” by Castrol and “Nissan Mission Oil BNR34 Special” are specially formulated V160 Gear OILS… they’re not Dexron II or Dexron III... and IF it was, it’s not anymore. The color red doesn’t prove V160 gear oil is Dexron II or III... Marvel Mystery Oil is also red and the fact that they are “oils” proves they are NOT Dexron II or III. If anything is or contains DexronII... it will have the word “DexronII” somewhere on the label.



    If USA DOT is so tightly controlled... then why did it take them 15 years to finally ban it from our shelves? That’s another topic... we’re talking about gear oil. “Gear Oil” is not a “Fluid” it is an “OIL”. American Petroleum Institute (API) sets the classification for OILS, not the Department of Transportation (DOT)



    Then you’re an idiot... again DexronII is an ATF... Automatic Transmission Fluid is not an oil, it is a hydraulic fluid. ATF is not formulated to perform as an “oil”, otherwise it would be labeled as an “oil”.



    In Japan, ALL BRANDS and TYPES of OILS are only sold in metal cans (some w/boxes), there’s nothing special about it... it’s law and that’s just the way it is. Packaging this way is very expensive and not a profitable scheme to make more money... that’s what plastic bottles are for.



    How many years do you consider a “full lifetime” of a vehicle? 10years? 50 years? 100years?
    I’m assured in the begining, all the major petroleum companies had the opportunity to develop a special, low production V160 gear oil. To answer your question, obviously Toyota picked Castrol and Nissan chose Esso. So far, I haven’t had any problems purchasing V160 gear oil from Toyota... and when I do, I will purchase Royal Purple MaxGear 75W-90, which is specially formulated to meet or exceed the specifications of Toyota #08885-01306 V160 gear oil.
    http://royalpurpleconsumer.com/wp-co...ence_Chart.pdf



    The V160/161 is a low production specially prepared Getrag 6spd manual synchromesh gear transmission found in the Toyota Supras (JZA80) and a limited number of Nissan GTRs (BNR34). (Not all GTR’s, just a special edition… I don’t know which edition.) If this Getrag V160 was no different than other manual transmissions, why didn’t Toyota and Nissan just make their own?

    The fact is, the V160/V161 6-spd transmission continues to be one of the best manual transmissions in the world to come equipped in any production vehicle... and apparently capable of withstanding failures when using the wrong oil/fluids.



    What test? There were no tests performed for oil degradation or ageing rate and there were no results!
    Dexron II/III, Toyota TIV, Mobil1 ATF, etc… are fluids, not oil. ATF cannot be tested as an “oil”… Blackstone Lab stated their process was,…NOT PERFORMED.

    “Total Base Numbers (TBN) analysis was not performed, as it is inaccurate for assessing ATF fluids as compared to engine oils.”



    Other than the Toyota and Nissan V160 gear oils, the latest recommended gear oil for the V160 is Royal Purple “MaxGear 75W-90”. Royal Purple does NOT recommend their “SynchroMax” for the V160, therefore the PentosinMTF2 won’t be on my list, IF what you are saying is correct. PentosinMTF2 is also a European Oil...

    “ACEA standards recognize that European engines differ from US (style) engines in both their design and operating conditions and that the demands on their oils are also different. This requires the oils used in European engines to be unique and consequently, the classification system for them also needs to be unique. For this reason it is difficult to compare the common API classification and ACEA standards, as the test sequences for them are quite different.”

    Very simple… If you are using ATF… remove it. Oil is Oil… ATF is ATF… It is, what it is.
    94 TT 6-speed, PHR Stage 1 single, PHR fuel rail, 720cc injectors w/ dual Walbro's. GReddy 3-row, MAPECU2.

  8. #56
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    Choritsu, I forgot to correct a couple of your other misconceptions.
    The reason Blackstone would not be testing ATF for total base number (TBN) is because this test makes no sense for ATF (or gear oil for that matter). It does makes sense for motor oil. Total Base Number (TBN) is a measure of a motor oils ability to offset the acid created by the combustion process. Essentially the test determines how much of the anti-corrosion additive (essentially an additive to increase alkalinity) is remaining. Since ATF is not used in an environment where acid would be created, there is no need to include an alkalinity modifier to offset the acid. Why put in an additive to control something that will not be created?

    You state that "The V160/161 is a low production specially prepared Getrag 6spd manual synchromesh gear transmission". I think we all agree the V160 is a great tranny, but maybe you can tell us all what is special about it what component(s) require the special V160 oil??? Are the gears or syncros made from a special alloy, are the shift forks made from some superalloy like unobtanium? Could it be that the seals and 'o'rings are made from some exotic polymer? It seems you know a lot about the V160, maybe you can enlighten the rest of us about what unique design features or materials makes it so "special"???

    You advised everyone who are using ATF in the V160 to remove it. Since you have put yourself forward as an expert on the V160 and the proper fluids for use in it, maybe you can elaborate on what component(s) will fail if we do not follow your expert advice??? Why haven't the numerous people who have been using Syncromax experienced any lubricant related failures?

    BTW, Pentosin MTF2 is a Manual Transmission Fluid specified for use in Getrag and ZF transmission from 1997 on. The statement you included refers to european motor oils which do differ in spec from their USA counterparts. A European motor Oil will meet all of the latest API requirements (ex. Mobil 1 European Formula 0W-40) but the American versions (ex. Mobil 1 10W-40) will not satisfy the higher European spec. Still, this has nothing to do with transmission oil (or fluid).

    I did not say that the DOT tightly control (or police) the fluid or the sale of the fluid, I said they tightly control the specification and what can be labeled DOT4. Color is part of the specification. ATE Super Blue DOT4 is a high end low production volume brake fluid so they likely just missed it. The brake fluid is dyed blue for the convenience of people who regularly bleed/change their brake fluid. Essentially you alternate each change between blue and clear. If you have clear in the system, you have fully bled the brakes when blue fluid comes out of the bleeder nipple. If you start with blue fluid in the system, it's fully bled when you add clear and see clear coming out the bleeder. Great idea once again foiled by govmt. bureaucracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by choritsu-shi View Post
    “Toyota Gear Oil V160” by Castrol and “Nissan Mission Oil BNR34 Special” are specially formulated V160 Gear OILS… they’re not Dexron II or Dexron III... and IF it was, it’s not anymore. The color red doesn’t prove V160 gear oil is Dexron II or III... Marvel Mystery Oil is also red and the fact that they are “oils” proves they are NOT Dexron II or III. If anything is or contains DexronII... it will have the word “DexronII” somewhere on the label.



    If USA DOT is so tightly controlled... then why did it take them 15 years to finally ban it from our shelves? That’s another topic... we’re talking about gear oil. “Gear Oil” is not a “Fluid” it is an “OIL”. American Petroleum Institute (API) sets the classification for OILS, not the Department of Transportation (DOT)



    Then you’re an idiot... again DexronII is an ATF... Automatic Transmission Fluid is not an oil, it is a hydraulic fluid. ATF is not formulated to perform as an “oil”, otherwise it would be labeled as an “oil”.



    In Japan, ALL BRANDS and TYPES of OILS are only sold in metal cans (some w/boxes), there’s nothing special about it... it’s law and that’s just the way it is. Packaging this way is very expensive and not a profitable scheme to make more money... that’s what plastic bottles are for.



    How many years do you consider a “full lifetime” of a vehicle? 10years? 50 years? 100years?
    I’m assured in the begining, all the major petroleum companies had the opportunity to develop a special, low production V160 gear oil. To answer your question, obviously Toyota picked Castrol and Nissan chose Esso. So far, I haven’t had any problems purchasing V160 gear oil from Toyota... and when I do, I will purchase Royal Purple MaxGear 75W-90, which is specially formulated to meet or exceed the specifications of Toyota #08885-01306 V160 gear oil.
    http://royalpurpleconsumer.com/wp-co...ence_Chart.pdf



    The V160/161 is a low production specially prepared Getrag 6spd manual synchromesh gear transmission found in the Toyota Supras (JZA80) and a limited number of Nissan GTRs (BNR34). (Not all GTR’s, just a special edition… I don’t know which edition.) If this Getrag V160 was no different than other manual transmissions, why didn’t Toyota and Nissan just make their own?

    The fact is, the V160/V161 6-spd transmission continues to be one of the best manual transmissions in the world to come equipped in any production vehicle... and apparently capable of withstanding failures when using the wrong oil/fluids.



    What test? There were no tests performed for oil degradation or ageing rate and there were no results!
    Dexron II/III, Toyota TIV, Mobil1 ATF, etc… are fluids, not oil. ATF cannot be tested as an “oil”… Blackstone Lab stated their process was,…NOT PERFORMED.

    “Total Base Numbers (TBN) analysis was not performed, as it is inaccurate for assessing ATF fluids as compared to engine oils.”



    Other than the Toyota and Nissan V160 gear oils, the latest recommended gear oil for the V160 is Royal Purple “MaxGear 75W-90”. Royal Purple does NOT recommend their “SynchroMax” for the V160, therefore the PentosinMTF2 won’t be on my list, IF what you are saying is correct. PentosinMTF2 is also a European Oil...

    “ACEA standards recognize that European engines differ from US (style) engines in both their design and operating conditions and that the demands on their oils are also different. This requires the oils used in European engines to be unique and consequently, the classification system for them also needs to be unique. For this reason it is difficult to compare the common API classification and ACEA standards, as the test sequences for them are quite different.”

    Very simple… If you are using ATF… remove it. Oil is Oil… ATF is ATF… It is, what it is.

  9. #57
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    Nomore, I for one appreciate your effort, but personally found it far easier to just tune out the pedantic "Japanese tuning in plain English" guy years ago.

    He has a terrible signal to noise ratio.

  10. #58
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    The RP fluid still feels great in my V160, and I will be sticking with it as I've been using it for many years. Informative analysis regardless, kudos for sharing the results with us.

  11. #59
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    Thanks. Don't know him but it irks me when people espouse BS as facts. Almost as irritating as his calling me an idiot.i try to not get involved in flame threads but I saw some people actually believing he knew what he was talking about. That's dangerous!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lagtime View Post
    Nomore, I for one appreciate your effort, but personally found it far easier to just tune out the pedantic "Japanese tuning in plain English" guy years ago.

    He has a terrible signal to noise ratio.

  12. #60
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    ^^^ great stuff normore! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.


    Craig
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  13. #61
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    Today I change the for Toyota V160 oil.. I used 2 litter in my V160. first i want to drain the oil i jack the car from pessanger side. all oil come easy...the i jack the from driveing side and almost 2 liter in V160 gear box....

  14. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by normore View Post
    There are so many misconceptions here that they are barely worth even addressing. However, I will just so others might have an opportunity to hear logic vs. ranting. There is a saying: "There are none so blind as those who will not see." I will address one point: Your basic contention that V160 is not Dexron II (or an ATF) and that it is an oil, as well that Dexron, other ATF's and RP Syncromax are all fluids, indicates that you have very little understanding of hydraulics (the study of fluids). The definition of a fluid is: " a substance which can flow. Technically the flow of any substance means a continuous relative motion between different particles of the substance." All oils are therefore fluids. While all fluids are not oils, ATF and specifically Dexron II are oils. By definition an oil is; "any of a large class of substances typically unctuous, viscous, combustible, liquid at ordinary temperatures, and soluble in ether or alcohol but not in water: used for anointing, perfuming, lubricating, illuminating, heating, etc." All ATF's (whether petroleum based or synthetic), Dexron II, and Syncromax meet this criteria and are therefore classified as oils. ATF's are labeled as fluids (actually more specifically as hydraulic fluids) to differentiate their applicability for hydraulic applications (auto tranny's, Power steering, etc). Standard ATF is comprised of about 75% base oil (highly refined petroleum or synthetic) stocks with the remainder being proprietary additives such as viscosity modifier, anti-wear additives, corrosion inhibitors, seal swell agents, etc. Most ATF will have anywhere from 15-20 additives. The two biggest differences between ATF and gear oil are the high pressure additives and viscosity (ATF viscosity would be about 40-50W gear oil or 20W motor oil). Since it seems you have a limited understanding of hydraulics and petroleum products, I will also explain that the SAE uses different viscosity rating systems for motor oil and gear oil. A 75W-90 gear oil is about the same viscosity as 10W-40 engine oil. While I do not consider myself an expert vis-a-vie the chemical makeup of either ATF, gear oil, motor oil or for that matter Syncromax, I can state categorically that they are all fluids and they are also all oils. While not an expert, I do have some credentials that are relevant to the discussion: I have spent just over 34 years in the petroleum industry, I served for several years the Managing Director of an engineering and technology center (revenues >$300M annually) that built complex downhole tools for the oil and gas business. These tools had transmissions that cost several 10's of thousands of dollars and used very exotic materials (silicon carbide seals, Inconel I-718 and MP35N and other superalloys) requiring extremely specialized lubricants. The tools were designed to operate reliably in a highly hostile environment of up to 350 deg F, 20,000 psi pressure and under continuous shock and vibration levels up to 25G's. The V160 environment is a comparative cakewalk. I don't have any delusions that I will convince you, but maybe the other readers will be able to sift through all of this (what you and I have both written) and decide for themselves what makes sense. BTW, I have provided a little background on myself and clearly stated that I am not an "expert". I would be interested to know what are your credentials???

    BTW, if you are still confused about the difference between fluids, oils and lubricants, here's another answer to the question from the experts at Exxon/Mobil1.

    What's the difference between fluids, oils and lubricants?
    -- James Wesley, Southfield, MI

    Answer:
    We think many people use these words interchangeably. The word lubricant is most descriptive of what they all do. Non-engine oils such as power steering, transmission, and shock absorber oils are often referred to as fluids because one of their primary functions is to act as a hydraulic fluid. In most cases, the carrier fluid for the additives used in lubricants is an oil-based compound so the additized product is often referred to as “oil."
    LOL Great Answer! Call it what you want, ATO or ATF it doesn't change my point, "because one of their primary functions is to act as a hydraulic fluid." The V160 is not a hydraulic pump, it is a manual transmission.

  15. #63
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    Great effort here on some alternatives to our forever aging internals. I've always run OEM and never hurt a trans. My next personal pick would be the royal purple based on what other friends in this hobby of ours have used and recommended. Thanks for this thread.


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  16. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by normore View Post
    Choritsu, I forgot to correct a couple of your other misconceptions.
    The reason Blackstone would not be testing ATF for total base number (TBN) is because this test makes no sense for ATF (or gear oil for that matter). It does makes sense for motor oil. Total Base Number (TBN) is a measure of a motor oils ability to offset the acid created by the combustion process. Essentially the test determines how much of the anti-corrosion additive (essentially an additive to increase alkalinity) is remaining. Since ATF is not used in an environment where acid would be created, there is no need to include an alkalinity modifier to offset the acid. Why put in an additive to control something that will not be created?

    You state that "The V160/161 is a low production specially prepared Getrag 6spd manual synchromesh gear transmission". I think we all agree the V160 is a great tranny, but maybe you can tell us all what is special about it what component(s) require the special V160 oil??? Are the gears or syncros made from a special alloy, are the shift forks made from some superalloy like unobtanium? Could it be that the seals and 'o'rings are made from some exotic polymer? It seems you know a lot about the V160, maybe you can enlighten the rest of us about what unique design features or materials makes it so "special"???

    You advised everyone who are using ATF in the V160 to remove it. Since you have put yourself forward as an expert on the V160 and the proper fluids for use in it, maybe you can elaborate on what component(s) will fail if we do not follow your expert advice??? Why haven't the numerous people who have been using Syncromax experienced any lubricant related failures?

    BTW, Pentosin MTF2 is a Manual Transmission Fluid specified for use in Getrag and ZF transmission from 1997 on. The statement you included refers to european motor oils which do differ in spec from their USA counterparts. A European motor Oil will meet all of the latest API requirements (ex. Mobil 1 European Formula 0W-40) but the American versions (ex. Mobil 1 10W-40) will not satisfy the higher European spec. Still, this has nothing to do with transmission oil (or fluid).

    I did not say that the DOT tightly control (or police) the fluid or the sale of the fluid, I said they tightly control the specification and what can be labeled DOT4. Color is part of the specification. ATE Super Blue DOT4 is a high end low production volume brake fluid so they likely just missed it. The brake fluid is dyed blue for the convenience of people who regularly bleed/change their brake fluid. Essentially you alternate each change between blue and clear. If you have clear in the system, you have fully bled the brakes when blue fluid comes out of the bleeder nipple. If you start with blue fluid in the system, it's fully bled when you add clear and see clear coming out the bleeder. Great idea once again foiled by govmt. bureaucracy.
    Darn…thank you for correcting me, TBN is for Engine Oils, not for gear oils, my mistake.

    So, were there any test results to compare gear oils or to show whether they were doing any harm or abnormal wear to the transmission?

    Did this test help you determine that V160gear oil is actually DexronII?

    The burden of proof is on you, you’re the one suggesting the Toyota V160 transmission does not require a special Gear Oil based on tests you’ve never performed.

    You’re the one who is suggesting to use DexronII ATF, I’m suggesting to use only what is recommended.

  17. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagtime View Post
    Nomore, I for one appreciate your effort, but personally found it far easier to just tune out the pedantic "Japanese tuning in plain English" guy years ago.

    He has a terrible signal to noise ratio.
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Bush View Post
    ^^^ great stuff normore! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.


    Craig
    Excuse me for Mis-Interpreting this "sticky", but I'm just a little confused? What exactly is the purpose of this thread?

    You guys are in agreement with Normore and suggesting we use ATF?

    Do any of the test results show or compare gear oils/fluids whether they will do any harm or abnormal wear to the transmission?

    Did this test help determine that V160 gear oil is actually the same as, DexronII, DexronIII, TIV, etc... ?

    Please, there's no need to get personal, just answer the questions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by choritsu-shi View Post
    Darn…thank you for correcting me, TBN is for Engine Oils, not for gear oils, my mistake.

    So, were there any test results to compare gear oils or to show whether they were doing any harm or abnormal wear to the transmission?

    Did this test help you determine that V160gear oil is actually DexronII?

    The burden of proof is on you, you’re the one suggesting the Toyota V160 transmission does not require a special Gear Oil based on tests you’ve never performed.

    You’re the one who is suggesting to use DexronII ATF, I’m suggesting to use only what is recommended.
    Choritsu, the purpose of this forum is to share knowledge and experience. Contrary to what you suggest, I am not directing anyone to use any particular fluid (oil) in their transmission. What you or anyone else chooses to use is entirely your and their own decision. If using the Toyota V160 oil provides you with a greater degree of comfort, then you should use it. What I have said, both on this thread and previously is that the V160 fluid is not the only fluid that will work well in the Supra Getrag transmission. Engine oil, transmission fluid, power steering fluid, hydraulic oil, and gear oil (transmission and rear end) are technically lubricants (also all are oils and fluids). They are differentiated by their physical properties; i.e. base oil type, fluid density, fluid viscosity (SUS and kinematic), flash point, pour point and additive package. Typical additives are to improve qualities such as: anti-wear, anti-corrosion, extreme pressure and viscosity index improvers. If you were to read the test data you would see that the V160 fluid has essentially the same physical properties (viscosity and flash point) to Toyota T-IV , Mobil 1 ATF and RP Syncromax. They each use a slightly different additive package for anti wear (Boron), extreme pressure (phosphorous and zinc), and anti-corrosion (calcium). As you can see the differences between the four ATF samples is greater than between any and the Toyota V160 fluid, yet they are all ATF's. There is some interaction and overlap between each of the additives (boron, zinc and phosphorous all reduce metal to metal contact and thus wear) so there will be variation between each formula. However, the biggest indicator to me that V160 is essentially ATF is the viscosity and flashpoint data which is clearly in the ATF range. The only fluid that was tested that was in the typical gear oil range (higher viscosity) was the Jacks Transmission V160 fluid. This stuff is clearly designed for heavily loaded (high torque) transmissions, hence the higher viscosity and much higher levels of anti-wear and extreme pressure additives. While it may seem there is a lot of mystery to lubricants (oils and fluids), they really are not all that complicated. No doubt there are variations to the make up for different applications and some manufacturers do a better job than others, but in most applications there is no "one" oil. Manufacturers do tend to test their equipment with only one or two oils and then specify those as the recommended oils, but this is usually only due to cost (accelerated long term tests cost money), some sort of external marketing agreement or a desire to increase internal profit. If you want to learn more about lubricants, formulation and additives, here's a good primer:
    http://www.stle.org/assets/document/...y_Function.pdf
    Since it may allow you to sleep better at night, I can tell you that it will likely do no harm to stick with the V160 fluid. For everyone else, you can feel confident that pretty much anything you put in your V160 Getrag that qualifies as Dexron II or III (except Redline D-4) or has similar characteristics is unlikely to do any harm. However, I would stick with any of the well known lubricants (i.e. Toyota V160, RP Syncromax, Castrol Transmax, Mobil 1 ATF). Given the high number of users and miles done with RP Syncromax and it's formulation being very similar to the V160, it would likely be the most logical choice for those who either can't get or don't want to pay for V160. Given the higher concentration of anti-wear and EP additives it may have slightly better wear protection in high horsepower (actually high torque) applications as well. BTW, I have exhausted my knowledge on the topic and am done with this thread

  19. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagtime View Post
    Nomore, I for one appreciate your effort, but personally found it far easier to just tune out the pedantic "Japanese tuning in plain English" guy years ago.

    He has a terrible signal to noise ratio.
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Bush View Post
    ^^^ great stuff normore! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.


    Craig
    I was told, arrogant people can't see the strengths in their competitors, and if they do, they seek to minimize those competitors by bad-mouthing them indirectly or publicly show support those who are opposing them regardless of principal.



    I've also been told that arrogant people can’t risk their fragile persona crumbling in the face of defeat so they run, hide or don’t reply because they’re unable to face direct criticism.

  20. #68
    Inline for the win Suprafied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by choritsu-shi View Post
    I was told, arrogant people can't see the strengths in their competitors, and if they do, they seek to minimize those competitors by bad-mouthing them indirectly or publicly show support those who are opposing them regardless of

    I've also been told that arrogant people can’t risk their fragile persona crumbling in the face of defeat so they run, hide or don’t reply because they’re unable to face direct criticism.
    Said the arrogant one....
    Do more with less......

    '95 Toyota Supra TT 6-spd Targa JRR/MoTeC M130 , Accelerated Performance , Sound Performance, Tilton, Precision, Recaro, HKS, ID, Radium, PHR, ETS, OS Giken....
    My Build Thread

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  21. #69
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    Japanese Tuning in Plain English

    Quote Originally Posted by normore View Post
    Choritsu, the purpose of this forum is to share knowledge and experience. Contrary to what you suggest, I am not directing anyone to use any particular fluid (oil) in their transmission. What you or anyone else chooses to use is entirely your and their own decision. If using the Toyota V160 oil provides you with a greater degree of comfort, then you should use it. What I have said, both on this thread and previously is that the V160 fluid is not the only fluid that will work well in the Supra Getrag transmission.
    Contrary to what? I’ve only suggested to use what is recommended…what could possibly be wrong with that? I advised, NOT to use Automatic Transmission Fluid in the synchromesh gearbox manual transmission because “ATF is formulated for Automatic Transmissions, MTF is formulated for Manual Transmissions”…only an idiot will argue that.

    You don’t need to know who I am or what my credentials are, because I didn’t make any assumptions or give any opinions. EVERYTHING that I have posted is of facts and/or can be backed up with facts… I don’t need credentials, to prove what is fact.

    You are misdirecting everyone to use the wrong fluids. You are misleading everyone saying V160 can be replaced by any Dexron II/III. It is your assumption that V160 gear oil is just ATF and your opinion that ATF will not harm the Supra 6-spd manual transmission. YOU ARE WRONG. How do you come to conclusions without any results? You have no test results after use, and you have no ATF manufacture documentation in support of your claims. You need to push credentials, because you simply have no facts and it seems you’ve lost your support. Sadly Lagtime and Craig Bush’s breif jesture of support wrongfully encouraged you... in reality it’s their indirect way to humiliate me without having to face me. Had they truly supported your claims they would’ve replied.

    It's members like you three who create unecessarry confusion. It's 2014 and this forum cannot give a straight answer regarding which transmission fluid to use on a car that over 20 years old! You guys continue to argue with me and accuse me of being arrogant just because I'm always right? or is because you are wrong? I'm just trying to help if I am wrong then show me how wrong I am.

    I practice to talk about thing that I know... if I dont know, I wont be talking because I will be listening.

    Engine oil, transmission fluid, power steering fluid, hydraulic oil, and gear oil (transmission and rear end) are technically lubricants (also all are oils and fluids). They are differentiated by their physical properties; i.e. base oil type, fluid density, fluid viscosity (SUS and kinematic), flash point, pour point and additive package. Typical additives are to improve qualities such as: anti-wear, anti-corrosion, extreme pressure and viscosity index improvers. If you were to read the test data you would see that the V160 fluid has essentially the same physical properties (viscosity and flash point) to Toyota T-IV , Mobil 1 ATF and RP Syncromax. They each use a slightly different additive package for anti wear (Boron), extreme pressure (phosphorous and zinc), and anti-corrosion (calcium). As you can see the differences between the four ATF samples is greater than between any and the Toyota V160 fluid, yet they are all ATF's. There is some interaction and overlap between each of the additives (boron, zinc and phosphorous all reduce metal to metal contact and thus wear) so there will be variation between each formula. However, the biggest indicator to me that V160 is essentially ATF is the viscosity and flashpoint data which is clearly in the ATF range. The only fluid that was tested that was in the typical gear oil range (higher viscosity) was the Jacks Transmission V160 fluid. This stuff is clearly designed for heavily loaded (high torque) transmissions, hence the higher viscosity and much higher levels of anti-wear and extreme pressure additives.
    Yes, I have read the untested “test data” and using them as reference for your theories is misleading and wrong. I will add, that cooking oils such as, Vegetable, Canola, Olive and Grapeseed oil also have the same flash point and easily appear to have the same viscosity of ATF… so based on your theories, these oils should also work? I think not, and neither will your theories.

    While it may seem there is a lot of mystery to lubricants (oils and fluids), they really are not all that complicated. No doubt there are variations to the make up for different applications and some manufacturers do a better job than others, but in most applications there is no "one" oil.
    Lubricants are not all that complicated??? I wouldn’t expect an expert to say that…why should you?

    An expert will say, “Synchromesh Manual Transmission fluids use a different Friction Modifier, specifically designed for mechanical synchronizer engagement. In addition to Friction Modifiers, Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluids also contain anti-rust, anti-foam, and Metal Deactivator chemistries, which are chemical compounds that keep an additive component or contaminant from reacting with metals in the gear box.”
    Please tell me nomore, should we accept that as fact or do you think this expert is full of crap?

    Now if Automatic transmissions have no synchronizers or gears and if Automatic transmissions will NEVER experience any friction from synchronizer engagement or the extreme load pressures of metal to metal gear contact. Why in the world, would any ATF manufacturer, add in additives required for a synchromesh manual transmission??? The answer is, they don’t. So how can ATF be harmless without proper synchromesh manual transmission additives???

    Seriously, you need take a step back and review your theories. You have not performed any tests nor do you have any results that support your claims. Until you can prove otherwise, using ATF in a synchromesh manual transmission is WRONG and will cause irreversible damage.
    Just for kicks, I will go out on a limb and assume without proof, that every ATF manufacturer will agree.

    Manufacturers do tend to test their equipment with only one or two oils and then specify those as the recommended oils, but this is usually only due to cost (accelerated long term tests cost money), some sort of external marketing agreement or a desire to increase internal profit. If you want to learn more about lubricants, formulation and additives, here's a good primer:
    http://www.stle.org/assets/document/...y_Function.pdf
    Since it may allow you to sleep better at night, I can tell you that it will likely do no harm to stick with the V160 fluid. For everyone else, you can feel confident that pretty much anything you put in your V160 Getrag that qualifies as Dexron II or III (except Redline D-4) or has similar characteristics is unlikely to do any harm. However, I would stick with any of the well known lubricants (i.e. Toyota V160, RP Syncromax, Castrol Transmax, Mobil 1 ATF). Given the high number of users and miles done with RP Syncromax and it's formulation being very similar to the V160, it would likely be the most logical choice for those who either can't get or don't want to pay for V160. Given the higher concentration of anti-wear and EP additives it may have slightly better wear protection in high horsepower (actually high torque) applications as well. BTW, I have exhausted my knowledge on the topic and am done with this thread
    Please, enough of your “knowledge and experience”, your assumptions are pathetically insulting. Next time you feel like crossing the street, try looking both ways before crossing. The fact is, Toyota will test their equipment/products with as many different lubricants as possible and they will continually test to improve. In Japan this is called “Kaizen” and if you look up “Kaizen” you’ll see that you are wrong again.

    More proof? NSK Bearing Co of Japan (coincidentally affiliated with Toyota) extensively tested over 25 different types of greases to develop a special high speed bearing for Japan’s Bullet Trains…. when used on the faster, China Star Bullet trains, they began to fail prematurely….(read more) http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/w...Industrial.pdf

  22. #70
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    I once had a dog who liked to eat his own feces. I thought it was disgusting and as much as I tried to break him of this habit, he continued to eat his own crap. I figured he either liked the taste or he was to dumb to know the difference between crap and food. I guess dogs will be dogs. I'm not sure if this has much to do with this thread, but it came to mind and it seemed appropriate.

  23. #71
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    Japanese Tuning in Plain English

    Quote Originally Posted by normore View Post
    I once had a dog who liked to eat his own feces.
    It’s called Coprophagi, its a common behavior among many species of animals, and for many different reasons, including dogs. It’s natural instinct when females have litters, they deliberately consume the feces of their puppies for the first few weeks to keep them clean and hide their scent while the litter is young and vulnerable.
    I thought it was disgusting and as much as I tried to break him of this habit, he continued to eat his own crap.
    That’s beacause you didn’t know, what you (will) know now. There’s age, health and breeds to consider and in many cases, a dog’s behavior can be linked directly to the owner’s behavior. Many dogs will eat feces for the owners attention, scolding their dogs for this behavior will many times make it harder, negative attention is still just attention to them.
    I figured he either liked the taste or he was to dumb to know the difference between crap and food.
    I’m not surprised you don't know the difference between ATF and MTF. You assume too many things, sometimes dogs just suffer an illness and consume their feces to recover nutrients they cannot retain or absorb through normal digestion. What's your excuse? If man’s best friend could speak, would you really understand him? Sometimes the owners are just too dumb to even consider illnesses or just too plain cheap… feeding their dogs only processed, dry diet foods and eat no living foods at all, will intentionally seek out other sources of digestive enzymes to make up for their own natural deficiencies. Anything is possible... again, without certain test results, no one really knows? Not even the "Big Dogs".
    dogs will be dogs.
    And idiots will be idiots.

    I'm not sure if this has much to do with this thread, but it came to mind and it seemed appropriate.
    It has everything to do with this thread and I hope you’ve learned another a good lesson. I always say, if you talk shit... be prepared to eat shit. Thank you for sharing, I found it perfectly appropriate.
    WOOF!
    Last edited by choritsu-shi; 04-01-2014 at 05:30 PM.

  24. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suprafied View Post
    Said the arrogant one....
    Well I thought arrogant ones had all the answers... they generally don't ask the questions, do they?

    So that we're clear... my comments weren't directed to you... it was your choice to reply, therefore I assume you plan to answer my questions?


    Quote Originally Posted by choritsu-shi View Post
    Excuse me for Mis-Interpreting this "sticky", but I'm just a little confused? What exactly is the purpose of this thread?

    You guys are in agreement with Normore and suggesting we use ATF?

    Do any of the test results show or compare gear oils/fluids whether they will do any harm or abnormal wear to the transmission?

    Did this test help determine that V160 gear oil is actually the same as, DexronII, DexronIII, TIV, etc... ?

  25. #73
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    ^^^ Dunning-Kruger.

  26. #74
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    Very informative thread!

  27. #75
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    Craig, +1. Awaiting the inevitable pedantic retort.
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Bush View Post
    ^^^ Dunning-Kruger.

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