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Thread: The Great V160 Fluid Challenge....

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by normore View Post
    Craig, +1. Awaiting the inevitable pedantic retort.
    Craig +2 Eagarly awaiting your inevitable pendantic retort...

    ....and been patiently waiting for you, to answer a few simple questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by choritsu-shi View Post
    Excuse me for Mis-Interpreting this "sticky", but I'm just a little confused? What exactly is the purpose of this thread?

    You guys are in agreement with Normore and suggesting we use ATF?

    Do any of the test results show or compare gear oils/fluids whether they will do any harm or abnormal wear to the transmission?

    Did this test help determine that V160 gear oil is actually the same as, DexronII, DexronIII, TIV, etc... ?

    Please, there's no need to get personal, just answer the questions...

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  3. #77
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    (bump) for Craig Bush

  4. #78
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    Agreed. Many 6 speed cars since 1997 from BPU to 1000HP and I've had Redline D4 ATF, V160 OEM, Royal Purple Synchromax and without a shadow of a doubt in all cars the RPt shifted FAR better, smoother over a longer period of time than any other oil, period. From street to slicks and the 1320.

    I'm glad the guys did the basic research on the oil properties, but I would have also enjoyed having the transmission tested with each oil in a 750HP street car. Why? Because that is my world. That was the parameter missing most, the drive test.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Bullet View Post
    ??? I never said I was...Trust me Neither are you. I appreciate the effort and the testing and results. But real world experience and mileage and abuse speaks for itself as it has for many others as to which has worked best in their situation (RP). I was just simply applying the comment of "not sure what the testing was trying to accomplish" for those who are already jumping ship and ordering V160 fluid in a panic because they are afraid to destroy their transmission.....I don't see where its needed if using RP. Its not like these transmissions are under warranty unless you have the year warranty of a brand new one. In that case run v160.

    When I need a good read, I can sit on the shitter, look up at walls at my degrees, and read through all this....I see the point and totally understand...BUT 100K miles , shifting at 9500 banging gears for over 15 years using RP absolutely is a standard and a test environment I can go by. Might want to get out and try it sometime. Anyhow...as i said thx for testing.

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  6. #79
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    Been running RP synchromax for around 10k miles in my supra and it shifts better than the previous v160 fluid. Decided on rp after reading good reviews from other forums members.
    '95 SC400 1JZGTE w/ R154

  7. #80
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    I totally agree that RP Synchromax makes shifting a lot A LOT easier but isnt that an issue for breaking 3rd gear synchro?? im pointing this to the hard shifters out there who broke 3rd gear synchro ??

    I asked once a guy who we had a similar debate about engine oils and it was Mobil 1 and Motul debate he showed me and proved to me that oil pressure will stay the same when using motul but go down when using Mobil 1 car was a rb26 GTR but FRANKLY im still using Mobil 1 with no issues as soon as its turns color it will be changed JUST A TRUST THING with all my cars never broke an engine had 3 single supras too....
    my 1st fully built 2jz engine broke but it did that on 1st dyno ever and that story is Tuner blames builder and builder blames tuner>>>

    I think hard shifting is the main cause of synchro issues not oil but might agree if you switch oils from rp to v160 it plays a role too just my thought....

    Should a new Brand v160 come filled with oil? What if i wanted Rp from the start lol
    Should i be worried if it sat down for a long time like that?
    Is there not a way we can measure the Getrag Temp and Pressure to conduct better test results..

    Ill sum it up with the Getrag v160/v161 is still the best Manual ever built
    PROOF the fastest IRS RAN a 7.1 with an Auto the Fastest IRS ran a 7.9 with a Manual and a very long Time ago
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  8. #81
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    If you keep shifting at 9,000 rpm's with your eyes closed and no-lift, sooner or later something might break.....with any of the oils mentioned wouldn't make a difference.....'unless of course you're the Silver Bullet and can shift at 12,000 RPM going sideways on wrinkle walls at 180mph faster than a dual clutch LP570.......then nothing breaks....

    [QUOTE=ABU DHABI;10250513]I totally agree that RP Synchromax makes shifting a lot A LOT easier but isnt that an issue for breaking 3rd gear synchro?? im pointing this to the hard shifters out there who broke 3rd gear synchro ??......I think hard shifting is the main cause of synchro issues not oil but might agree if you switch oils from rp to v160 it plays a role too just my thought....

  9. #82
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    Last month I inquired Royal Purple by email in regards to the success many members had using Synchromax against their (incorrect) recommended MaxGear.

    (see here)...
    https://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...1#post10149882

    Regardless which you choose V160 or Synchromax.... JUST DO NOT USE ATF.

  10. #83
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    Some interesting comments but all these conflicting views are helping no one.

    I am looking for an oil for my BNR34 gearbox Skyline (all of them came with a Getrag 6sp box) The recommended one from Nissan was Esso D 21065 - which is a Dextron ll D See here:

    http://www.mobil.com/UK-English/Lube...F_D_21065.aspx

    The UK Importer for BNR34 who sold and supplied these cars from 99-02 now recommend using Dextron lll in these gearboxes.

    However this mystery surrounding the V160 does not help matters. I spoke to a couple of Oil Specialists who have recommended Amsoil ATF and Fuchs 4400 which conform to Toyota T-IV.
    Last edited by FRRACER; 04-22-2014 at 11:05 AM.

  11. #84
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    Does anyone familiar with these results understand if 'seal swell' associated with Redline D4ATF (which many of us Old Boosters ran back in the day) would be present in any of the other ATF based solutions? If you do not have the answer to this, then how can you recommend ATF based formulations with the limited number of parameters identified here?

  12. #85
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    No one can guarantee with 100% certainty that any fluid will not cause the issue seen with Redline D4-ATF. This applies to all fluids including the recommended V160, Esso D21065 and Royal Purple Syncromax. The formulations of these or any fluids can be changed by the manufacturer and still meet the spec. The spec of the additive packages for all lubricating fluids is typically provided as a range (i.e. x% - y%) and if the fluid complies but is at the top of the range then it will exhibit more of that property. It is my understanding that this was the explanation provided by Redline for the seal swell issue. Seal swell additive was at the top of the specified range for Dexron III, which caused the shifter centering bushing to swell increasing friction and preventing the shifter from self centering. What you can count on with a reasonable amount of confidence is, fluids that have been used by numerous people with no negative results will likely do no harm. V160, Esso D21065 and Royal Purple Syncromax all meet that criteria. Based upon my own personal experience, most fluids (light viscosity gear oils like ATF) do no harm. I have owned my 1994 Supra TT 6-spd since new and it had V160 fluid in the tranny until about 80K miles (initial fill and two changes). At about 80K miles (around 2001), I installed a new RPS clutch and at the same time changed the tranny fluid to Mobil 1 synthetic ATF. I ran this for about 25K miles over 3 years or so with no adverse effects. Next tranny fluid change was at about 105K miles where I used Amsoil Synchromesh. It was in there for only about 10K miles but also no ill effects. The car currently has 144K miles on it and I have since done two changes with Royal Purple Syncromax, again no ill effects. Through all of this time (20 years) and the numerous different fluids (all in the ATF viscosity grade) I have never had an issue with the shifter or syncros. In fact the tranny shifts better now then when it had 10K miles on it in 1995. Other than the physical and chemical properties analysis conducted by the guys in this test (albeit of new fluid only) there has been no real scientific data supplied by anyone to support any recommendation. This applies equally to V160 and Esso D21065. All of the data has essentially been empirical (observed). With that said, despite following this topic for several years, other than the one case with Redline D4-ATF, I have yet to see any report of any V160 transmission failure which was attributable to the type or brand of fluid being used. Esso D21065 is clearly ATF (GM DEXRON II D to be exact) so any fluid that meets or exceeds the Dexron IID spec should do not harm. Still, the safe thing is to stick with the proven fluids like RP Syncromax, V160, Esso D21065 (if you can find it). It would be good if someone could conduct a poll to see if anyone has experienced a V160 tranny failure that was directly attributed to the type of fluid. If there is a fluid other than Redline D4 that definitely causes failure, I have no doubt it would have been reported.
    Quote Originally Posted by Old_Boost View Post
    Does anyone familiar with these results understand if 'seal swell' associated with Redline D4ATF (which many of us Old Boosters ran back in the day) would be present in any of the other ATF based solutions? If you do not have the answer to this, then how can you recommend ATF based formulations with the limited number of parameters identified here?
    Last edited by normore; 04-23-2014 at 01:40 PM.
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  13. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRRACER View Post
    Some interesting comments but all these conflicting views are helping no one.

    I am looking for an oil for my BNR34 gearbox Skyline (all of them came with a Getrag 6sp box) The recommended one from Nissan was Esso D 21065 - which is a Dextron ll D See here:

    http://www.mobil.com/UK-English/Lube...F_D_21065.aspx

    The UK Importer for BNR34 who sold and supplied these cars from 99-02 now recommend using Dextron lll in these gearboxes.

    However this mystery surrounding the V160 does not help matters. I spoke to a couple of Oil Specialists who have recommended Amsoil ATF and Fuchs 4400 which conform to Toyota T-IV.
    Just interesting comments? I thought the dog eating crap was really amusing. I gotta ask...If the conflicting views aren't helpful, and you didn't care for the entertainment part, what exactly encouraged you to join Supraforums? I certainly appreciate the link and I didn't know the 6-speeds came in the Skyline, just the GTR. So thank you and welcome to the Supraforums.

    IMO Nissan owners seem more oil concious... and I say that because Nissans have oil pressure gauges, real clutch type LSD, HICASS, etc... I would think you could find a better answers on a Nissan forum. We have enough crap here, please don't leave yours here.

    According to your link… if you read it carefully…

    “Mobil ATF D 21065 is an Automatic Transmission Fluid blended to a unique formulation using highly refined base oils and performance additives.”

    Clearly it is a “unique formulation”… Meaning it is no longer the ATF that it once was… this unique formulation is aka, “Nissan BNR34 Mission Oil” not “Dexron ll. In addition to the highly refined base oils, I’m assured that one of the performance additives is a Friction Modifier specifically designed for mechanical synchronizer engagement. How am I so assured? Because this Friction Modifier is a crucial ingredient for any Synchromesh Manual Transmission. Automatic Transmission Fluids DO NOT have Synchromesh Friction Modifiers. Using ANY fluids without this ingredient, will cause damage to your synchros.

    "According to ExxonMobil , Mobil ATF D 21065 is of the following quality level: GM DEXRON II D"

    That doesn’t say D21065 is DexronII… that clearly states that it has the quality level of DexronII.
    So therefore I’m somewhat wrong…it is an ATF and you can use it in anything that is approved for Dexron ll… which is pretty much nothing these days.
    but whatever these UK Importers and Oil Specialist are saying? They are dead wrong!

    The V160 requires a special Automatic Transmission Fluid blended to a unique formulation using highly refined base oils and performance additives...
    Not Dexron ll ,Dexron III, DexronVI or any other ATF.


    Toyota V160
    Nissan BNR34 Mission Oil
    Royal Purple SyncroMax

    are the ONLY three that are specifically approved for the V160 6 spd transmission.

    Thanks for the link.
    Last edited by choritsu-shi; 05-01-2014 at 06:03 AM.

  14. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by normore View Post
    No one can guarantee with 100% certainty that any fluid will not cause the issue seen with Redline D4-ATF. This applies to all fluids including the recommended V160, Esso D21065 and Royal Purple Syncromax. The formulations of these or any fluids can be changed by the manufacturer and still meet the spec. The spec of the additive packages for all lubricating fluids is typically provided as a range (i.e. x% - y%) and if the fluid complies but is at the top of the range then it will exhibit more of that property. It is my understanding that this was the explanation provided by Redline for the seal swell issue. Seal swell additive was at the top of the specified range for Dexron III, which caused the shifter centering bushing to swell increasing friction and preventing the shifter from self centering.
    The Toyota V160, Nissan BNR34 Mission Oil and Royal Purple Syncromax will not have the seal swelling issues because they're not made for automatic transmissions. All ATFs will contain additives to swell seals because an automatic transmission is essentially a hydraulic pump which puts fluids under high pressure therefore requires a system which is leak-free.

    What you can count on with a reasonable amount of confidence is, fluids that have been used by numerous people with no negative results will likely do no harm. V160, Esso D21065 and Royal Purple Syncromax all meet that criteria. Based upon my own personal experience, most fluids (light viscosity gear oils like ATF) do no harm. I have owned my 1994 Supra TT 6-spd since new and it had V160 fluid in the tranny until about 80K miles (initial fill and two changes). At about 80K miles (around 2001), I installed a new RPS clutch and at the same time changed the tranny fluid to Mobil 1 synthetic ATF. I ran this for about 25K miles over 3 years or so with no adverse effects. Next tranny fluid change was at about 105K miles where I used Amsoil Synchromesh. It was in there for only about 10K miles but also no ill effects. The car currently has 144K miles on it and I have since done two changes with Royal Purple Syncromax, again no ill effects. Through all of this time (20 years) and the numerous different fluids (all in the ATF viscosity grade) I have never had an issue with the shifter or syncros. In fact the tranny shifts better now then when it had 10K miles on it in 1995. Other than the physical and chemical properties analysis conducted by the guys in this test (albeit of new fluid only) there has been no real scientific data supplied by anyone to support any recommendation. This applies equally to V160 and Esso D21065. All of the data has essentially been empirical (observed). With that said, despite following this topic for several years, other than the one case with Redline D4-ATF, I have yet to see any report of any V160 transmission failure which was attributable to the type or brand of fluid being used. Esso D21065 is clearly ATF (GM DEXRON II D to be exact) so any fluid that meets or exceeds the Dexron IID spec should do not harm. Still, the safe thing is to stick with the proven fluids like RP Syncromax, V160, Esso D21065 (if you can find it). It would be good if someone could conduct a poll to see if anyone has experienced a V160 tranny failure that was directly attributed to the type of fluid. If there is a fluid other than Redline D4 that definitely causes failure, I have no doubt it would have been reported.
    Again, you're a fuckin idiot! It was reported many times and there were service bulletins issued.

    I know there were more than a few Supras that had transmissions replaced under warranty. This was a common mistake on early 93-94 6-spd Supras due to this factory sticker. Many dealerships were were not aware of the V160 transmisssion oil. Toyota released at least 2 Service Bulletins regarding using the wrong fluids in the 6-speed transmissions. Toyota Service Bulletin #TC93-009 and #MT-94-001 (I don’t know how to link or attach PDF files)

    I have diagnosed many Supras that were incorrectly using ATF. It's very easy to tell by the loud "clunk" when put into reverse. Fortunately we would remove the ATF and install V160 with no noticable damage, just as you did. That doesn't mean it's okay to use ATF as you assume... The fact is, using ATF is wrong and will cause damage to the synchros... I personally know of 3 Supras which had their transmissions replaced due to using ATF.

    Enough of the seal swelling bullshit... I don't consider seal swelling a failure, thats what ATF is suppose to do. The failure is using ATF in the V160 and damaging the synchros.

    "lo bux racer" did more than swell his seal using Redline D4 ATF... His first gear synchro was broken! Now aint that a fuckin coincidence?

    "lo bux racer" also claims there were absolutely no signs of wear, just a broken 1st gear synchro, yet he chooses to replace EVERTYTHING. btw He also ordered everything before pulling apart his transmission because says, "he had no idea what to expect". Why else would anyone preorder everything? Because there was more than just a broken 1st gear synchro... his transmission was fucked up ... that's the reason why! lol

    "lo bux racer" also claims to have spent lots of money with Blackstone Labs over the years and yet when he rebuilds his transmission, this is the one time he failed to get an analysis done. Why not? https://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...1#post10027282
    Last edited by choritsu-shi; 05-01-2014 at 03:51 AM.

  15. #88
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    "Choritsu-shi" - Translation: Japanese for industrial sized manure spreader.
    I particularly like your quote from a prior post: "You guys continue to argue with me and accuse me of being arrogant just because I'm always right?".
    Please continue with your flailing at windmills. Rather than annoy, now you simply amuse me

  16. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by normore View Post
    Thanks. Don't know him but it irks me when people espouse BS as facts. Almost as irritating as his calling me an idiot.i try to not get involved in flame threads but I saw some people actually believing he knew what he was talking about. That's dangerous!!!
    that would be choritsu-shit on spot there. he is the only true knowledge here in this world. the sooner you understand that, the sooner he can stop calling you names. rofl.

  17. #90
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    Holy shit, excellent comparison!

  18. #91
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    Thanks a million for doing this research, however the link to the study on the first page appears to be broken....

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    Just to add one more opinion. I had Royal Purple fluid in and then changed to Toyota Red, and the shifting was better with the Royal Purple. RP shifted smoother and easier. I will be returning to RP for my next transmission fluid change. I changed to the Toyota Red, thinking that it would be better. I was disappointed.

  20. #93
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    More comedy. I replaced everything because I knew I broke the first gear synchro and I didn't know what else might have been affected. Also, if you look at the part numbers, there was a change in all the synchros and synchro hubs in 1994. So it seemed to me, if I'm going to go to all the work of taking this thing apart and rebuilding it, why would I not want the updated parts?

    If you read what Martin Polsch replied, he said very clearly there is only one approved oil. What it really means is they built and did their testing with one oil, and anything else is anybody's guess if it will work for the long haul. Getrag has no interest in testing more oils than one - it's expensive and they are not paying the warranty claims, so to legally protect Getrag, they can only say we know it works with the oil we tested and nothing else.

    I've run Mobil 1 ATF without issues for a long time. I ran D-4 ATF because Red Line said it was their recommended oil. It worked fine except it swelled the DU bushing so the shifter would not center. Nothing else was a problem.

    I broke my first gear synchro completely and totally MY FAULT for treating my gearbox poorly. No need to go into detail, but I know exactly what I did and why it broke, and no gearbox with a nearly 2 kilogram gear would have tolerated what I did to it.

    I just recently put my light flywheel back in the car, and the rattling was much worse than I remembered. On recommendation from an APU Supra owner, I put in RP Synchromax. It is much quieter with RP, and it shifts better than it ever has. I can sit at a traffic light and when the A/C kicks on, it is still quiet. A pretty dramatic change from Mobil 1 or V160.

    My gearbox still has the orange sticker, and it is not ambiguous about ATF ONLY. So, based on the good experience of many using RP Synchromax, I'm pretty confident it works just fine.

    Way too much thinking about what amounts to ATF is ATF, and running it in this gearbox hurts nothing as long as it doesn't hurt the DU bushings (yes there is more than one in this gearbox, but I doubt many here know how many there are unless you've taken one apart). I sent an email to Red Line many years ago, and told them to stop recommending D-4. Their other ATFs will probably work fine, but D-4 is very light and they choose to put in the most seal swell to counter the leakage many would experience if used in an automatic. As I said years ago, nothing else is impacted by D-4. When I took my gearbox apart, the outer ring was cracked on the #1 synchro, and again it is because I broke it, not because the oil failed.

    This is no different than if you blew an engine and failed to replace the oil cooler. If there are metal bits stuck in the oil cooler, you'll toast your brand new engine shortly after. I chose to replace everything because I didn't want to find out my 1st gear synchro grenaded into many small pieces and damaged bearings, gears, or other internals. Lucky for me it didn't. I also discovered the dogs were worn (again from my abuse) and replaced first and second gears to ensure I would have the original performance without question.

    I weighed first gear, and it was pretty clear the first gear synchro works very hard. I don't shift into first and any speed above 3 mph anymore. I don't want to pull my gearbox apart again to replace parts I know are damaged from basic abuse. So RP is working better than anything else I've had in my Getrag 233 including V-160, and I'll keep running it until RP stops making it.

    Last edited by lo bux racer; 09-29-2014 at 10:07 PM.
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  21. #94
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    Great response. I plan to switch over to RP next year.... My fluid has only 300 miles on sit the car has been back together.

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  22. #95
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    Has anyone tried Redline lightweight shockproof?
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  23. #96
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    Resurrecting the old thread I know... but this is handy.
    http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/a..._Reference.pdf

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    great sticky! RP is on the way

  25. #98
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    Drained my tranny and filled with RP last month. Within 10 miles I notice a definitely improvement in shifting; down and up. Drives great.

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    Awesome thread very informative. Broken down to a science

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    Quick ? Changing the Clutch out along with the Slave and Master Cylinder how much RP Transmission fluid is needed. Thanks

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