Bolt on 4-Piston front MB brakes & 2-Piston rear Evo brakes

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Thread: Bolt on 4-Piston front MB brakes & 2-Piston rear Evo brakes

  1. #1
    Addicted to oil survyor2's Avatar
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    Bolt on 4-Piston front MB brakes & 2-Piston rear Evo brakes

    I wanted to share my brake upgrade. None of this information is brand new and can be found on another forum if you want to go threw over 70 pages of info. I wanted to make a one post with all the information needed. I recommend upgrading the front and rears together to keep a balance in the braking system.

    FRONT BRAKES:

    Calipers: 2 used Mercedes-Benz W220 front calipers
    2000-2006 S430/S500
    both long and short mounting tabs work

    Pads: Any brand for MB W220 front calipers

    Bolts: 4 Mercedes-Benz part#1234210271
    these bolts fit the thread of the MB calipers
    the smaller diameter clears the MK3 mounts

    Rotors: 2012 Mercedes-Benz R350 front rotors
    these are 13-inch diameter

    Washers: 3mm thick worth of washers x 4

    Hub rings: 67.1mm to 60.1mm aluminum rings
    stay away from the plastic ones

    Dust shield: don't cut this! avoid sharp edges and a dangerous situation. the shield can easily be bent backwards with a hammer. if it still rubs the rotor after installation, use a large screwdriver to pry it away from the rotor.

    Paint: I hit the caliper with a rotating wire brush drill attachment, then 100 grit sandpaper and brake cleaner. I used orange and black engine paints. I removed the bolts 2 at a time to paint them separately.

    Brake fittings: threads match, use new copper washers, I am using a previously installed SS line kit

    Wheels: 17-inch+, i have 18-inch

    Piston comparison: 1x60mm MK3 piston vs 2x44mm & 2x40mm MB pistons

    Installation: remove wheel, loosen brake line fitting, remove rear caliper bolts, remove caliper, remove rotor, bend dust cover, install hub ring, install rotor, install loaded caliper using new bolts, 3mm washers goes between the MK3 bracket and the MB caliper, transfer brake line fittings with new copper washers, bleed brakes, install wheel

    Total cost: $374. I bought everything on Ebay except the paint.

    REAR BRAKES:

    Calipers: 2 used 2003-2005 Mitsubishi Evo 8 rear calipers

    Pads: Any brand for Evo 8 rear calipers

    Bolts: 4 M10-1.5X40mm. $1.06 each at Home Depot.
    these bolts fit the thread of the Evo 8 calipers

    Rotors: 2005-2007 Suburu WRX STI rear rotors

    Washers: 4 2mm thick M10 washers.

    Hub: STI hubs are about 58mm. Take the rotor to the machine shop and bore the hubs out to 60.2mm. $64 labor

    Dust shield: don't cut this! avoid sharp edges and a dangerous situation. the shield can easily be bent backwards with a hammer. if it still rubs the rotor after installation, use a large screwdriver to pry it away from the rotor.

    Paint: I hit the caliper with a rotating wire brush drill attachment, then 100 grit sandpaper and brake cleaner. I used orange engine paint.

    Brake fittings: threads do not match. my understanding is that one fitting is flared and the other is inverted flared. They appear to fit at first but I had a leak. I used the stock evo banjo bolts and added a banjo fitting to my brake lines.

    Wheels: 17-inch+, i have 18-inch

    Piston comparison: 1x38mm MK3 piston vs 2x40mm Evo 8 pistons

    Ebrake: no changes or adjustments, works 100%

    Installation: remove wheel, loosen brake line fitting, remove rear caliper bolts, remove caliper, remove rotor, bend dust cover, install rotor, transfer brake line fittings, install loaded caliper using new bolts, one 2mm washer goes between the MK3 bracket and the MB caliper, bleed brakes, install wheel

    Total cost: $446. I bought everything on Ebay except the paint and bolts. The bolts are from Home Depot.

    FRONT PHOTOS:











    REAR PHOTOS:











    Last edited by survyor2; 04-01-2016 at 04:59 PM.

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  3. #2
    Moderator SideWinderGX's Avatar
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    Awesome pictures! Condensed info is always great.

    According to rockauto the stock rear piston is 38mm, so 2x40mm at a bigger radius is well over twice the stopping power.

    For the fronts, 1 60mm versus 2 44mm and 2 40mm pistons is over twice the stopping power as well, so it stays pretty balanced.


    edit: See post #8, it is not over twice the stopping power. It is an improvement but my math/logic is wrong.
    Last edited by SideWinderGX; 05-23-2018 at 07:08 PM.

  4. #3
    Addicted to oil survyor2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SideWinderGX View Post
    Awesome pictures! Condensed info is always great.

    According to rockauto the stock rear piston is 38mm, so 2x40mm at a bigger radius is well over twice the stopping power.

    For the fronts, 1 60mm versus 2 44mm and 2 40mm pistons is over twice the stopping power as well, so it stays pretty balanced.


    Thanks. I'll add the rear piston size.

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    oh boy! time to save up some money! great thread!

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    Life is BOOST turbogate's Avatar
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    Nice! Thanks for taking the time to put these details together and share!
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    Slow MK3 Fonz87's Avatar
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    Finally a good detail thread.

    Now i regret selling my calipers and USPS losing them...
    I drive a Probe

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    Bring me back a expensive hooker !

  9. #7
    SupraForums Member SpecialK's Avatar
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    Sweet! I love your car! I will be the Mercedes brakes on my car soon. I just recieved my calipers and bolts today.

  10. #8
    Formerly Nosechunks TurboStreetCar's Avatar
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    Nice pics! Glad someone put all the information all in one place!

    SideWinder: I believe that comparing a single piston caliper to a dual piston caliper will not have double the clamping force unless the pistons are on the same side of the caliper. With a single piston caliper, say a single 1 square inch piston at 100PSI, the piston would be exerting 100LBS of force on the pad between it and the rotor, and the caliper body would be "pulling" with 100LBS of force against the outer pad between the caliper body and the rotor.

    In a dual opposing piston caliper, with two 1 square inch pistons, the body of the caliper is fixed, so one piston is applying 100LBS of force to one pad, and the other piston 100LBS of force to the other with the rotor between them.

    IF the caliper had two 1 square inch pistons on the same side, then combined they would be applying 200LBS of force to the pad between them and the rotor, and the caliper body would be "pulling" with 200LBS of force against the outside pad and you would have double the clamping force.

    The front stock 60mm caliper has an area of 2,826 Square Millimeter. The Mercedes calipers i would assume have a 40mm and a 44MM on the each side so the area of that caliper would be 1256SQmm+1519.76SQmm=2776SQMM (rounded up) or 98.23% of the effective piston area of the stock caliper.

    Though add in the mechanical leverage gained from the 1.25" larger diameter rotor and more even contact pressure on the (likely larger) brake pads and im sure it will be an improvement.

    The rear comparison would be 1x38mm MK3 piston vs 2x40mm Evo 8 pistons. Stock 38mm piston has 1133.54Sqmm area. Evo has 1256Sqmm or 110.8% of the stock caliper clamping force. Then again add the mechanical leverage of the larger diameter rotor and the likely larger pads and the rears should be a good gain aswell.

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  11. #9
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    great write-up. like you I bent my front dust shields away from the larger rotor but I had to trim two small pieces to fit the larger benz caliper.
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    7M Fanatic sixpack's Avatar
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    What diameter are the rear rotors ?

    TurboStreetCar, you are 100% right on the clamping force figures.
    Having pistons on both sides doesn't double the number of what you would have with the pistons on just one size.
    Pistons on both sides just makes things work better, as the pistons can follow the rotor, instead of the whole caliper having to follow, on somewhat undersized pins.
    Last edited by sixpack; 11-24-2015 at 03:21 PM.

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    Moderator SideWinderGX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
    What diameter are the rear rotors ?

    TurboStreetCar, you are 100% right on the clamping force figures.
    Having pistons on both sides doesn't double the number of what you would have with the pistons on just one size.
    Pistons on both sides just makes things work better, as the pistons can follow the rotor, instead of the whole caliper having to follow, on somewhat undersized pins.
    Yup I follow now, you and TurboStreetCar are right. Never thought it through haha.

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    Nice. STICKY!! myth says ebrake cant be kept. Can it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynes_3 View Post
    Nice. STICKY!! myth says ebrake cant be kept. Can it?
    Agreed. I would like to know as well. Oh and coupled with the larger bore master cylinder upgrade and ss brake lines would make this a great low buck upgrade for sure. Thanks for the info op

  16. #14
    7M Fanatic sixpack's Avatar
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    Darth, no need for a larger master, as there is no appreciable increase in piston area.
    A larger master would give you less braking force per pound of foot presssure.
    Larger is not always better.
    (better known as 'math')

  17. #15
    Moderator SideWinderGX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynes_3 View Post
    Nice. STICKY!! myth says ebrake cant be kept. Can it?
    I kept mine, it was a tight fit but yes you can keep it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
    Darth, no need for a larger master, as there is no appreciable increase in piston area.
    A larger master would give you less braking force per pound of foot presssure.
    Larger is not always better.
    (better known as 'math')
    I'd disagree there...the larger master would move more fluid for every inch of travel, but at the cost of increased effort per inch. More braking force but more effort.

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    Ok I see thanks for clearing that up

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    Formerly Nosechunks TurboStreetCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SideWinderGX View Post
    I'd disagree there...the larger master would move more fluid for every inch of travel, but at the cost of increased effort per inch. More braking force but more effort.
    "Less braking force per pound of foot pressure"

    Would give the feel of less powerful brakes. a smaller master cylinder would make the brakes feel much stronger.

    If i didnt already have my Cobra brake setup i would prolly do the Mercedes brakes.

  20. #18
    Moderator SideWinderGX's Avatar
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    Agreed, but at the end of the day the bigger master would give you more braking ability before the brakes are to the floor.

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    I;ve heard about the mercedes front caliper swap but never seen it, great write up! I'm still on the fence of using the lexus cnc'd kit made on SM by sethron? I'm thinking in the end & living in canada it will end up being close to the same price.

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    7M Fanatic sixpack's Avatar
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    Sidewinder,

    As I stated, larger is less clamping force PER POUND of PEDAL PRESSURE.
    All a larger master will do is increase speed.
    If you have to rely on more pressure on the pedal, that isn't an increase in clamping force when comparing one system to another.

    Simple math (hydraulic formula) :
    pounds (foot pressure) times area (master cyl bore) = pressure exerted on system.

    Nice little on-line program that I use when screwing with brake up-grades:
    http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/bias-calculator/
    and
    http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/dual-bias-calc/

    Used these, and probably some other to realize that even with 13"/12" front/rear rotors & Z32 calipers, on a 3400 lb car, that there was no way in hell to have good brakes (able to pull 1G) without a power brake booster.
    Refference this to the new GT-R, which from the factory can pull close to 1.25G off the showroom floor.

    Seem that no matter how much I fabricate/spend, a 25 year old Cressida isn't a super car
    Last edited by sixpack; 11-26-2015 at 06:42 AM.

  23. #21
    Formerly Nosechunks TurboStreetCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SideWinderGX View Post
    Agreed, but at the end of the day the bigger master would give you more braking ability before the brakes are to the floor.
    Honestly even a 1/2" master cylinder wouldn't go to the floor. You prolly only need to displace about 1-2cc of fluid before its hydro locked. Unless the rotors/pads are crushing under the pressure, or your lines are expanding under pressure there isn't much "flow". It's more just a transfer of pressure. Fluid can be pressurized, but not compressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
    Sidewinder,

    As I stated, larger is less clamping force PER POUND of PEDAL PRESSURE.
    All a larger master will do is increase speed.
    If you have to rely on more pressure on the pedal, that isn't an increase in clamping force when comparing one system to another.

    Simple math (hydraulic formula) :
    pounds (foot pressure) times area (master cyl bore) = pressure exerted on system.

    Nice little on-line program that I use when screwing with brake up-grades:
    http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/bias-calculator/
    and
    http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/dual-bias-calc/

    Used these, and probably some other to realize that even with 13"/12" front/rear rotors & Z32 calipers, on a 3400 lb car, that there was no way in hell to have good brakes (able to pull 1G) without a power brake booster.
    Refference this to the new GT-R, which from the factory can pull close to 1.25G off the showroom floor.

    Seem that no matter how much I fabricate/spend, a 25 year old Cressida isn't a super car
    The cobra brakes on my car once warmed up stop very well. I believe on a heavy car like ours it's more about tire then braking ability. Even 16" rotors with 8 piston calipers on all fours, won't stop a car without enough rubber on the road.

    This is why my car will never have a skinny up front.

  24. #22
    Moderator SideWinderGX's Avatar
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    sixpack: I gotcha there, I thought you were implying you wouldn't get an increase in braking force with a larger master (when you generally would). If you want to increase braking force you could increase master cylinder diameter, or increase brake caliper piston area. Both will ultimately stop you faster.
    @ the super car comment, we're all fighting that one.

    Turbo: again I agree, but with a larger master you can build more pressure. When you stand on a cars brakes if you have a bigger master cylinder you'll be able to stop faster (barring you're traction or pad compound limited, like you said).

  25. #23
    Formerly Nosechunks TurboStreetCar's Avatar
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    Well that's the thing, you won't build more pressure with a larger master. You'd build more pressure with a smaller piston in the master.

    When you push the master with 150lbs of force, and the master has a 1 square inch piston, it will apply 150psi pressure to the braking system.

    If you push the master with 150lbs of force, and the master has a .5 square inch piston, it will apply a 300psi pressure to the braking system.

    If you push the master with 150lbs of force, and the master has a 2 square inch piston, it would apply a 75psi pressure to the braking system.

    You would however, end up with more force with larger Pistons in the calipers.

  26. #24
    7M Fanatic sixpack's Avatar
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    I had looked at ABS's (that is a brand name) electric boosted system, and although the $1000-ish price is hard to take, but possible,
    their system size didn't lend it's self to my ITBs any more than the stock system.

    Wish someone would come up with a compound master, where a large piston would take up the initial pad advancement,
    then a smaller piston would increase the pressure.
    This is common on hydraulic hand pumps on things like shop presses, called a Two Stage Pump.
    Unfortunately, no one has applied the design to automotive brakes yet.

  27. #25
    Moderator SideWinderGX's Avatar
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    I wasn't looking at it that way, I was looking at it as there's x amount of master cylinder piston travel, with a larger master the brakes will engage sooner and give me more reserve brake pedal travel if my foot can manage. Which isn't entirely correct either haha. Batting 1000!

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