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Ok better safe then sorry i guess. Mapecu2 goes in then... piece of shit is a headache to wire. Should just sell it and buy a afc...... ffs.

I have a 60-1 ct26 so i've been told over 18psi is pointless. Not looking to beat Ferrari's here, don't have the cashflow for that lol. Ill stick to my simple setup. Anyone have an apexi afc for sale? Or whats next best thing?

And of course i have a wideband, silly question. Stupid to not run one when your modifying your engine.
Do you have the Map ECU in your possession now?
 
ill trade you my SAFC for that Mapecu2.

but at least youll be able to keep an eye on your AFR's. just run your WG boost setting and see where you are. just increase the boost a little at a time and watch for lean moments and work from there.
 
Turbos are a tricky subject with a lot of math involved behind the power. PSI doesn't mean anything! Get it out of your head. PSI is just a quick reference to a known flow rate for a given turbo at said PSI. The real power number is MFR, or Mass Flow Rate, measured in lbs/min. Like I said, there's quite a bit behind the chaos. I'll try to simplify and still get the point across.

Terms to be familiar with:

VE - Volumetric Efficiency - amount of clean air entering the combustion chamber per cycle, measure in %

MFR - Mass Flow Rate - air flow measured in lbs/min

PSI - Phucking Stupid Intiger

Turbine - Exhaust, or hot, side of turbo

Impeller - Intake, cold, or compressor side of turbo

A/R - Area \ Radius - Area of the outlet of a given side of a turbo (hot or cold side) divided by the radius from the center of the wheel (turbine or impeller) to the center of the outlet port. Confused? I'll try to post a reference pic.

Trim - Trim is the ratio of the inducer and exducer of a given wheel. Turbine side, the exducer is the small outer portion of the wheel while the inducer is the larger half inside the turbine. The compressor side is opposite with the inducer being the smaller half and the exducer being the bigger half inside the compressor housing.

PR - Pressure Ratio - Difference between intake pressure and output pressure.
That's about it for that.

First you need to find your power goal. Say 400 whp. Now add ~12% for driveline loss to get block hp (bhp), ~450bhp. Now to determine the MFR. Quick rule of thumb is every lb/min = 10hp. So 10lbs/min = 100hp. That said, we need a turbo to flow ~45lbs/min. I like headroom so we'll use 50lbs/min. We have wastegates afterall. Well, which turbo? Turbobygarrett.com provides charts to help you along, unlike trial and error at turbonetics. Nothing against them. Use can use these charts to compair similiar trim, A/R, and wheel size to Turbonetics turbos. (all three have to be the same though.) Anyways, using the GTX35R for reference.

Image


The bottom shows the MFR, the left shows PR. Looking at 50lbs/min, trace up to find the most efficient area (inner most circle) which is at a PR of 2.5. Now these charts are measured at a given ambient temp and barometric pressure, etc. Basically things that can make a difference but we won't dive into and it only makes a difference of a few HP, 10-20 tops. Anyways, we now have an idea of what PSI (that nasty thing) we need to run. But we need to find something else, if this thing will lag or spool like crazy. That's where turbine A/R comes in. Smaller A/R will spool quicker but choke at higher RPM, larger will lag but spin forever (so to speak). We need to know the max RPM we want to run for this, so say 6800 to be safe. The max air flow our engines can do on it's own at 6800 rpm is 25.6lbs/min, or roughly 255bhp with 100% VE. At 90% VE it's roughly 230bhp, which is 210ish with a manual trans to the wheels. Sad! Anyways, you usually want your max torque at about 65% of the max rpm. This is ~4400 RPM. (This is also the area of max VE and the reason cam timing is so important. You can adjust this RPM, by roughly +-10-15%, by adjusting your cam timing, and is also a reason why the largest duration isn't always the best!) Also, it's a good idea to have the max HP fall at about 90% of the max RPM, or roughly 6000 RPM. And you should shoot for full boost by half the max RPM, or 3400 RPM (this will go down once it's spoolled up so after a gear change it will spool faster!). In a racing application this will give you 2400 RPM of usable power per gear without having to peg your motor.

So now we know some key RPMs, 3400, 4400, and 6000. To get full boost by the 3400 mark you need to look at the turbine, as said above. Looking at the charts on Turbobygarrett,

Image


you'll see three lines. We know full boost falls at a PR of 2.5. Now this is where it gets tricky. Something that I've found is you can simply use half the max MFR for this part, so 25lbs/min. Using 25lbs/min and 2.5PR, the best fit would seem to be the .63A/R. You will need a large wastegate for this to bypass the other 27lbs/min or over half, not a good idea. So we pick the .82A/R. Fuel and ignition timing will effect this also and is an important factor in why a good tune is needed, but now we have an idea of what we need.

Quick rundown, for an efficent 400whp (capable of much more!) running this turbo will give full boost at ~3400 RPM (quicker after reached once! This is from idle BTW), max torque around 4400 RPM (adjusted by cam timing and will vary depending on cams used) and a max HP at 6000 RPM of 500 at the flywheel. The IC will contribute to this as well. There are also other factors to consider such as pressure drop, humidity, altitude, etc. This is why I like the headroom. This turbo will easily get you to 650whp with higher boost and more fuel. But we are looking for efficiency for daily use right? BTW, if you must know, 400 is at ~21PSI.

Now this is by no means everything involved. There are a LOT of equations behind all of this and a LOT of them are left out just to have a quick reference. There is a LOT more to these charts that I left out just to make this as simple as possible and to make this a somewhat easy read. This is very basic and dumbed down just to give an idea. Hope this helps someone get a very rough understanding on how to pick a turbo.

I know I've talked about this before but I plan to make a more detailed post about this. Just no time at all.
 
Map ecu is awsome ... and easy as shit to wire and program.. if map ecu beats you.. do everyone a favor and don't touch any tuner

edit: sorry.. lol that shit is just so easy
Don't pull that bullshit. Wiring is a whore to begin with. You can't say its a simple wiring job. it involves resistors and transistors. I'm 95% done the wiring basically, somethings wrong and no one is able to help diagnose it so im fucked and gave up.
 
definitly.

for stock rods to not BEND under the dynamic cylinder pressure, you have to minimize knocking. that means running AFR's in the 10:1 range under boost. most boosted cars can live in the 11's and low 12's if the boost isnt too high. but, the stock 7m rods wont tolerate ham-fisted tuning, or lack of.
Air/fuel ratios in the 10's is reaaaaaally rich, honestly. I can understand wanting a margin of safety on a stock ECU car, but I'd stay north of 10 and south of 12. Also, stock 7M rods are pretty tough, it's the pistons that really suck balls.

Honestly, tell me how many 7M's you've seen bend a rod by making big power.
 
Thanks for the good info, as always bassjunkiens. I always appreciate that kind of insight.


I feel like jumping into the mapecu2 was a bad idea, shoulda started from the basics and worked my way up. We'll see how i make out.
 
zach, i know 10's are rich. i dont want to tell him to tune 11.8-12.2 for power on stock internals with no real management at 400rwhp. thats risky business. id rather have him play it safe, even if he IS canadien. and 7M's dont bend rods cuz of power. they will bend a rod due to detonation. and i dont mean just folding it in half. i mean a minor tweak or twist on the beam. the detonation is what scares me the most about stock rods. i detonated all through 4th gear with my 76mm and my pistons were still in perfect shape. had the rod bearings not been hammered out, it would have been fine. if i were going to reuse my stock rods, i can almost guarantee that they are no longer true and straight.

the mapecu2 is a fine system. id run it myself for the added features. i have the mapecu 1 right now and have it installed via a patch harness so i could do everything outside of the car and make it 100% plug and play. the tuning Map Cal software is great to use also. real-time map adjustments are extrememly handy. i completely wrote my fuel map from scratch in a few hours, real time while driving my car up and down the street. the onlything i dont like is that Map ECU says that youre limited to injectors 2x the factory size. that means im going to have trouble working with 1000cc injectors. i should have a complete standalone really...
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
stock blocks have done 600rwhp before. back before tuning was as advanced as it is today, people like will neely made well over 400hp on stock internals. i know several guys here who made 400-500rwhp on stock internals with either upgraded CT26 or bolt-on Ct-style turbos like Boss550's.

the setup youre planning will live a long life at 500rwhp as long as your oil system stays up to snuff.

for 400hp, you need a turbo rated for 40lb/min at whatever pressure ratio youre planning to run. i assume you want 400rwhp on pump gas, otherwise itll severely limit the amount of fun and how often you can do it. so, youll want a turbo that will move 45ish lb/min at about 2.5:1 pressure ratio which works out to about 21psi on the guage. turn it back to about 17-18psi and you should be able to get what you want. a 61mm turbo can do this easily and be very responsive. maybe a Borg S362.
Good Info, thanks!

Turbos are a tricky subject with a lot of math involved behind the power. PSI doesn't mean anything! Get it out of your head. PSI is just a quick reference to a known flow rate for a given turbo at said PSI. The real power number is MFR, or Mass Flow Rate, measured in lbs/min. Like I said, there's quite a bit behind the chaos. I'll try to simplify and still get the point across.
I know I've talked about this before but I plan to make a more detailed post about this. Just no time at all.
Great Info! Will look forward to the more detailed Post!
 
zach, i know 10's are rich. i dont want to tell him to tune 11.8-12.2 for power on stock internals with no real management at 400rwhp. thats risky business. id rather have him play it safe, even if he IS canadien. and 7M's dont bend rods cuz of power. they will bend a rod due to detonation. and i dont mean just folding it in half. i mean a minor tweak or twist on the beam. the detonation is what scares me the most about stock rods. i detonated all through 4th gear with my 76mm and my pistons were still in perfect shape. had the rod bearings not been hammered out, it would have been fine. if i were going to reuse my stock rods, i can almost guarantee that they are no longer true and straight.

the mapecu2 is a fine system. id run it myself for the added features. i have the mapecu 1 right now and have it installed via a patch harness so i could do everything outside of the car and make it 100% plug and play. the tuning Map Cal software is great to use also. real-time map adjustments are extrememly handy. i completely wrote my fuel map from scratch in a few hours, real time while driving my car up and down the street. the onlything i dont like is that Map ECU says that youre limited to injectors 2x the factory size. that means im going to have trouble working with 1000cc injectors. i should have a complete standalone really...
Ok i'm going to pretend im new here.

can i haz more boost?

Seriously though, whats the delema with staying at around 10psi on a 60-1 ct26 with the 550's and lex afm? I was hopping for a lot more as that's what i've read. I don't want to do anything unsafe, i'm just trying to learn why.
 
Stock ignition tables suck. Higher boosts means means more heat and a higher risk of detonation. Also, 550s are only good until about 425-450ish hp. I made an injector thread awhile back. Check it out. "fuel injector sizeing guide" or something like that.
 
i hope you mean 450rwhp. thats on a fairly accurate but conservative number if so.

stock ignition tables can suck. especailly if you end up scaling the airflow meter signal with a piggy back. big injectors with scaled down correction will result in HIGHER igniition advance. thats why i said you could back off your base timing on the CPS to try to help alleviate the over-advancing of timing under boost. its just a bandaid correction, but that doesnt mean it WONT retard the ignition timing.

more boost will be fine if you can keep your timing in check and you have enough fuel to support the boost, via injectors, fuel pressure and/or fuel pump volume.

i built and tuned a MKIV that was running 10.50's on the STOCK 550cc injectors. it dynod 518rwhp on 18psi and pump gas with an SP67, ebay manifold, ebay V44 wastegate, Map-ecu1 tuned by me, a walbro 255, custom fuel rail adapters, -6an lines and aeromotive Afpr set to 54psi static. oh, btw, this was through a Sound performance-built A340 and a Precision industries 3800rpm stall converter in 3rd gear, unlocked.
 
^ All the numbers I put up are in a reasonable area of efficiency. That figure is at 80% duty cycle along with a number of other variables, temp, humidity, altitude, etc. Run 100% duty if you want. It's your motor. I just like a good reliable daily.

fluby, you've been getting really defensive lately. Like you have something to prove. What's the deal?
 
no i wasnt being defensive. i was saying that somethings work out differently in practice than in theory. youre right on with your specs. thats a very smart approach and to be conservative. i was just giving anecdotal evidence that things work outside of their theoretical realm. i want people to know that you DONT have to go with "Common sense" about this stuff. you can think outside the box. hell, ive got a 550cc fuel map on my map ecu and im running stock 440's. my AFR's are perfect. tweaking the fuel pressure is an extremely good way to get a little more head room out of your setup.

remember, "common sense" isnt always a good thing; it used to be common sense that the world was flat. and it used to be common sense that the earth was the center of our solar system. so, thats why i qualified your post the way i did. not a way of being defensive.
 
Not really a theory/practice thing. I can prove your numbers (HP) with numbers (formulas). I just think that with someone asking a simple question as "What PSI should I run" (no offence OP) that a bit of headroom and reliability is needed. Not squeezing a few extra HP by tweaking other things that may not be as obvious to some. That thread I made awhile back doesn't account for FP, pulse width, ignition timing, dwell, etc. It's just using the simple static flow rating for a rule of thumb. Again, it was for people to use as a reference when starting out. Obviously the OGs and the few others that have proven themselves wouldn't need such a chart.

Just my point of view on the subject. Apples and oranges here.
 
thats cool too. thats definitly good to know for anyone that needs a place to start. the rc injector calculator is cool because you can play with the fuel pressure and see what your injectors can do. thats where i started before i tried writing my fuel map for the Map ecu. i started by scaling down a 550cc map by a few percent to get a rough starting point.
 
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