1.69 60' on drag radials

960 Views 25 Replies 4 Participants Last post by supratt96, Sep 19, 2001

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Discussion Starter · Sep 15, 2001

I went to the track for my first time ever on BFG drag radials tonight. 275 40 17's on the factory rear rims. I deflated them down to 17 psi, heated them up pretty well in the water box, and burned them off a bit on the way out.

I stood on the foot brake while holding the e-brake and just watched the RPMs climb. I couldn't believe that the tires were holding at 4000 RPMs. I thought for sure they'd just let loose. That's about where I hammered it, let go of the foot and e-brake and launched the thing. It was the wierdest feeling in the world. I'd never done better than a 2.18 60' before. I thought my stomach was going to come out of my mouth.

Unfortunately, I only ran about 21 psi on the SP63 and didn't get around to locking the torque converter in 3rd gear until almost the end of the track. What could have been a great run at 27 psi at full throttle, ended up being a measly 11.8 @ 120 MPH. That crappy pass still resulted in my immediate booting from the track. What a drag. Does the NHRA rule book really apply to Supras?

Oh well, for those naysayers who don't think a 3600 lb. boat (with a full stereo and a burly driver) can't launch, I'd have to say that they're wrong. Hell, if I can do it, anybody can do it. I don't know how much more could possibly be gained by going to ET Streets, but I'm pretty damn happy with my drag radial performance. I'll bet there's still a little more in them with some changes in tire pressure and bringing up a little more boost before the launch.

Anyway, that's my personal best. Just thought I'd share.

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G

Discussion Starter · #2 · Sep 15, 2001

Man that's great. What stall is your converter? With ET streets you will be able to hold the rpm's even higher and you will get less spin.

BTW, is there a "right" time to lock up a torque converter? I always thought that the top of 3rd was the appropriate time. Should it be earlier than that?

Philly Single

· #3 · Sep 15, 2001

Good run man....10sec potential....

Hopefully Mark C. will add some of his words of wisdom here....on driving the auto Supra to low 10s!

jay

G

Discussion Starter · #4 · Sep 15, 2001

Supreme,

I have the same TC you have. The PI 3800 stall. I usually lock it up as soon as I shift into 3rd. This time I left it in third unlocked until almost redline, when I realized I still had a ways to go before the traps and I was almost out of gear. Locked it up, and went through the traps almost at the same time. I think that's what cost me some MPH. 120 doesn't seem very good for that turbo. It's run quite a bit faster (albeit on more boost and more tire spin), on a hotter day.

I don't know if it's because it's an auto or if it's the size of the exhaust housing, but I compared my runs to Peter Waterman's (SP57 with a .58 housing, 6-speed) and my 21-22 psi run tonight was about the same as his 18 psi run on a smaller turbo. And even then, he has more MPH at the 1/8 mile, although we even out at the end of the quarter.

I need to get to the bottom of some things with my setup. On a smaller exhaust housing and stock fuel, the car went 130 MPH at 23 psi. With the upgraded fuel system and bigger exhaust housing, at 22 psi, the car ran almost 9 MPH slower. I don't get it. Maybe the car is running a lot richer because of the new fuel system. I don't know. I should have more power now than I did, but it's not showing in the timeslips.

Where's Cooper when you need him? I'm curious what boost level and what type of fuel he was running when he pulled off those 10 second blasts on his drag radials. Maybe I'm just not in the efficiency range of the SP63 with the .70 housing. I need to talk to Larry, too. There's got to be a logical explanation.

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Spool

· #5 · Sep 15, 2001 (Edited)

That's a great 60' time...good going!

I need to get a some DR's or ET's. What brand and size should I go with? I have the stock wheels, so I was hoping to use these.

I need to get the single on soon...then I'll get to feel what a 1.6 60' feels like!!! Unless, the DRs/ETs with the stockers can get me there first...maybe not.

supratt96

· #6 · Sep 16, 2001

2DVS4U said:
Supreme,

I have the same TC you have. The PI 3800 stall. I usually lock it up as soon as I shift into 3rd. This time I left it in third unlocked until almost redline, when I realized I still had a ways to go before the traps and I was almost out of gear. Locked it up, and went through the traps almost at the same time. I think that's what cost me some MPH. 120 doesn't seem very good for that turbo. It's run quite a bit faster (albeit on more boost and more tire spin), on a hotter day.

I don't know if it's because it's an auto or if it's the size of the exhaust housing, but I compared my runs to Peter Waterman's (SP57 with a .58 housing, 6-speed) and my 21-22 psi run tonight was about the same as his 18 psi run on a smaller turbo. And even then, he has more MPH at the 1/8 mile, although we even out at the end of the quarter.

I need to get to the bottom of some things with my setup. On a smaller exhaust housing and stock fuel, the car went 130 MPH at 23 psi. With the upgraded fuel system and bigger exhaust housing, at 22 psi, the car ran almost 9 MPH slower. I don't get it. Maybe the car is running a lot richer because of the new fuel system. I don't know. I should have more power now than I did, but it's not showing in the timeslips.

Where's Cooper when you need him? I'm curious what boost level and what type of fuel he was running when he pulled off those 10 second blasts on his drag radials. Maybe I'm just not in the efficiency range of the SP63 with the .70 housing. I need to talk to Larry, too. There's got to be a logical explanation.

I'm here.

With the .70 A/R, I ran 130 mph traps. 133 mph with the .81. I always run race gas at the track and my best times have come running 25 psi (which increases to 28 psi when you lock the converter). If you are running crappy gas, your ECU might be pulling out timing which could contribute to your problem. Make sure you clear your ECU before you race and after you have some race fuel in the car. I lock the converter at 6000 rpm in second gear.

Another issue is that larger turbos need to be run at higher boost to be in there efficiency range. An SP-60 will turn better times at 21 psi than a 63 will at the same boost. But turn them both up to 28 psi, and the 63 will perform better. Bear in mind that I got almost the same performance from the 60 as I did the 63. In fact, I was able to run high 10s on the 60 at only 23 psi. My 60 turned the exact same numbers as my 63 did with a .70 A/R, but generated considerably higher EGTs. The 63 with a .81 A/R is only a few 10ths quicker in the 1/4 than a 60. If it wasn't for the high EGTs that I was getting with the 60, I would still be running it. I love that lightening quick spool.

Another possible issue could be your ECU not coping well with the larger injectors, although I never seemed to have a problem with this. My ECU was modded by G-force, but for BPU, not single. Perhaps the more aggressive fuel and timing maps make a difference.

It is likely you are running much richer than before. Get the car tuned as soon as possible. Did you change anything else besides the exhaust housing and fuel system?

By the way, there is still quite a bit of potential left to further improve your 60', even on drag radials. It depends quite a bit on how well the track is prepped. I ran last night and couldn't get better than 1.64 60' on BFGs. But it had rained earlier in the day and they hadn't done much to prep the track. With ET streets, 1.4 60' times are acheivable. It can be done on grag radials too, but requires nearly perfect conditions.

Good luck.

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Spool

· #7 · Sep 16, 2001

At what boost levels did your EGTs with the SP-60 get too high?

What temp did they reach compared to the SP-63?

Did your EGTs climb slowly or rapidly say during a pass?

This should help me make a better turbo selection decision!

I appreciate it.

supratt96 said:
I'm here.

With the .70 A/R, I ran 130 mph traps. 133 mph with the .81. I always run race gas at the track and my best times have come running 25 psi (which increases to 28 psi when you lock the converter). If you are running crappy gas, your ECU might be pulling out timing which could contribute to your problem. Make sure you clear your ECU before you race and after you have some race fuel in the car. I lock the converter at 6000 rpm in second gear.

Another issue is that larger turbos need to be run at higher boost to be in there efficiency range. An SP-60 will turn better times at 21 psi than a 63 will at the same boost. But turn them both up to 28 psi, and the 63 will perform better. Bear in mind that I got almost the same performance from the 60 as I did the 63. In fact, I was able to run high 10s on the 60 at only 23 psi. My 60 turned the exact same numbers as my 63 did with a .70 A/R, but generated considerably higher EGTs. The 63 with a .81 A/R is only a few 10ths quicker in the 1/4 than a 60. If it wasn't for the high EGTs that I was getting with the 60, I would still be running it. I love that lightening quick spool.

Another possible issue could be your ECU not coping well with the larger injectors, although I never seemed to have a problem with this. My ECU was modded by G-force, but for BPU, not single. Perhaps the more aggressive fuel and timing maps make a difference.

It is likely you are running much richer than before. Get the car tuned as soon as possible. Did you change anything else besides the exhaust housing and fuel system?

By the way, there is still quite a bit of potential left to further improve your 60', even on drag radials. It depends quite a bit on how well the track is prepped. I ran last night and couldn't get better than 1.64 60' on BFGs. But it had rained earlier in the day and they hadn't done much to prep the track. With ET streets, 1.4 60' times are acheivable. It can be done on grag radials too, but requires nearly perfect conditions.

Good luck.

G

Discussion Starter · #8 · Sep 16, 2001

Damn good to hear from you, Coop.

It's funny you mention the times and EGT's on the 60. I originally had the .58 housing on my 63 and it was unbelievably quick spooling. Of course, the EGT's started getting pretty high at only 21-22 psi, but I was also on stock fuel at the time. I wouldn't think that the EGT's were necessarily determinative of richness or leanness, just the temp in the header. I'd be curious to see where the air/fuel ratio is on a .58 housing with an upgraded fuel system (even though you know the EGT's will be higher) vs. the .70 housing. I'll bet if you tuned a .58 housing for 11.7:1, the EGT's would still be much higher than a .70 housing tuned for 11.7:1.

I had a mix of 110 and 92 in the car. 5 gallons of 110 and 3 gallons of 92. I may need to clear out the ECU and I did lift a little bit after the launch, since it scared the crap out of me. I've never felt a car launch like that. I also don't lock the TC until after I shift into 3rd gear. Usually that's enough to get decent traps, plus I've heard it's a little easier on the TC. One of these times I might try locking it at the top of 2nd and see what happens. I just hope it was my driving and not the tranny that caused a reduction in my trap speeds.

I always appreciate the tips, Mark. Thanks again.
Mark Epstein

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Spool

· #9 · Sep 16, 2001

Do you have ceramic coating on the inside as well as the outside of your header for better heat scavenging? Or is it moot with smaller housings? Just curious. I've heard that coating on the inside helps quite a bit...but have not yet read any post that substantiates the fact.

What is the safe boost limit without too high of EGT's with the SP-60 .58 then...around 20?

Thanks!

2DVS4U said:
Damn good to hear from you, Coop.

It's funny you mention the times and EGT's on the 60. I originally had the .58 housing on my 63 and it was unbelievably quick spooling. Of course, the EGT's started getting pretty high at only 21-22 psi, but I was also on stock fuel at the time. I wouldn't think that the EGT's were necessarily determinative of richness or leanness, just the temp in the header. I'd be curious to see where the air/fuel ratio is on a .58 housing with an upgraded fuel system (even though you know the EGT's will be higher) vs. the .70 housing. I'll bet if you tuned a .58 housing for 11.7:1, the EGT's would still be much higher than a .70 housing tuned for 11.7:1.

I had a mix of 110 and 92 in the car. 5 gallons of 110 and 3 gallons of 92. I may need to clear out the ECU and I did lift a little bit after the launch, since it scared the crap out of me. I've never felt a car launch like that. I also don't lock the TC until after I shift into 3rd gear. Usually that's enough to get decent traps, plus I've heard it's a little easier on the TC. One of these times I might try locking it at the top of 2nd and see what happens. I just hope it was my driving and not the tranny that caused a reduction in my trap speeds.

I always appreciate the tips, Mark. Thanks again.
Mark Epstein

G

Discussion Starter · #10 · Sep 16, 2001

Spool said:
Do you have ceramic coating on the inside as well as the outside of your header for better heat scavenging? Or is it moot with smaller housings? Just curious. I've heard that coating on the inside helps quite a bit...but have not yet read any post that substantiates the fact.

What is the safe boost limit without too high of EGT's with the SP-60 .58 then...around 20?

Thanks!

Maury,

My .58 housing was not coated. My .70 is coated, but I believe only on the outside. My header is not coated at all.

It's difficult to determine what the safe boost level is on the .58 housing because my believe is that even though the EGT's are rising, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're running lean in your cylinders. It just means that the exhaust housing is restrictive, not flowing as much air, and causing temps to rise in the collector of the header. I don't know what the impact of high EGT's, but a safe air/fuel ratio are. I just know that I don't want my EGT's high.

With good gas in the car (100 octane or more), you can safely run 20-21 psi on the .58 housing for a short blast. Don't even think about stretching it out on the highway, though. That would surely melt something. The SP63 with the smaller exhaust housing is a phenomenal turbo. I loved it. I like the .70 housing also, because it's capable of running more boost and making more power, but it is a little slower to spool. However, the 3800 stall TC is a great equalizer.

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G

Discussion Starter · #11 · Sep 16, 2001

2DVS4U - Congrat's, man! The BFG's are certainly sticky at the track (and oddly enough, drove straight as hell with no wiggle for me at the track though I have problems on the street), and there's definitely even more in it for you if you can just get more than one pass at the damn track before they make you go home.

(one of the tracks we go to here in IL only needs a cage for 11.49 or faster, instead of 11.99, and another is not very strict, so we can get away with some fast runs without cages now and then)

As to the trap speeds... Keep in mind that, theoretically, I'll see *slightly* higher traps due to the optimized gearing of the 6spd tranny (assuming I can shift the sucker), at least at the 1/8th (I'm not practiced at shifting into 5th, and that cost me). Also, note that my 1/8th MPH was *all* over the place on my runs due to spinning in 2nd - everything from 92 to 98MPH on my six runs, though most of them were 95+.

I also think that you're losing a lot by not locking up the tranny. I'm not an expert on the autos, but you should see 125+ locking it up, if everything else was the same as what you did that pass.

And finally, as Cooper states, I'm not sure that there's *that* much to be gained in power with a 63 over the 60/57, especially if your motor is completely stock, unless you're running 25+PSI. The 63 doesn't seem to really open the gap until the motor opens up - it's just too much turbo (surprisingly enough!). Port the head and intake manifold and watch that puppy shine - add cams, and you're in a whole different world.

Still, get some practice in with that puppy somewhere you're allowed to, and I think you'll see some great numbers. And that's some *excellent* driving your first time out with drag radials - I remember my first launch with drag radials, I saw a 1.7x 60' and felt exactly what you described. I thought the front end was going to come all the way up and I'd shoot straight into the sky, heh.

-Pete

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Spool

· #12 · Sep 16, 2001

Okay...

I wonder what the EGT's are at BPU++ running 19-20psi...they must be getting awfully high *if* a bigger single with less restrictive header is seeing high EGTs at 20psi. I would like a setup that can be opened up often on the fwy at high boost...without high EGTs.

I wonder how much lower the EGTs are with a coated header inside and out.

I'll have to get an EGT gauge on the car next week whiles it's getting tuned.

I appreciate the info.

Pete: Is your header coated on the inside and out and what are you EGTs at high boost on extended hwy pulls??

2DVS4U said:
My .58 housing was not coated. My .70 is coated, but I believe only on the outside. My header is not coated at all.

With good gas in the car (100 octane or more), you can safely run 20-21 psi on the .58 housing for a short blast. Don't even think about stretching it out on the highway, though. That would surely melt something. .

Silver Orchid SP60

· #13 · Sep 16, 2001

Great runs Mark! Looks like you are getting your launches down. THe BFG's dont work too well for me, I guess I am not heating them up enough. My Japanese DR's work pretty good though, even if I dont heat up as much. I need to get my probs ironed out and go out to the track.

G

Discussion Starter · #14 · Sep 16, 2001

Spool - I'll have to double-check with [email protected], but I believe my header is coated only on the outside. Have no idea what my EGT's are with extended highway pulls, as I don't have an EGT gauge (I believe they tend to be misleading unless you have an incredible EGT setup). I do, however, not do any extended high-boost pulls over ~18PSI on the highway, even on race gas. Not until I get upgraded fuel. I was a crazy psycho with boost on the stock turbos, but this small single could pop my engine in no time if I kept that attitude.

-Pete

G

Discussion Starter · #15 · Sep 16, 2001

watermnp said:
Spool - I'll have to double-check with [email protected], but I believe my header is coated only on the outside. Have no idea what my EGT's are with extended highway pulls, as I don't have an EGT gauge (I believe they tend to be misleading unless you have an incredible EGT setup). I do, however, not do any extended high-boost pulls over ~18PSI on the highway, even on race gas. Not until I get upgraded fuel. I was a crazy psycho with boost on the stock turbos, but this small single could pop my engine in no time if I kept that attitude.

-Pete

Pete,

I had no idea you were still on stock fuel and didn't even have an EGT gauge. It's probably a good thing you don't have an EGT gauge, because if you would've seen what your EGT's were at 24 psi, with 126 MPH traps, you would have cried. I about did. That's why I went ahead and had Larry put the full fuel system in there and swap out the exhaust housing. The car will definitely run fast, but part of the reason the car will trap so high is because the car is making a ton of power being pretty close to lean. My traps were 130 and my EGT's got to almost 900C. It was making great power, but was probably getting pretty lean.

Get the fuel system. Once you have it, you'll sleep better at night. Until then, be ultra careful, check all your vacuum lines on a regular basis, and make sure they're all ziptied. If one pops off, you could pop your motor.

Congrats on your numbers, too. Once you've gone single, you can't ever go back.

G

Discussion Starter · #16 · Sep 17, 2001

2DVS4U - Aye, the SP57 is only a "temporary" measure until I do the fuel system. For typical driving, I'm content to run at ~18-19PSI (and I usually run a ~50/50 mix of 93/100 just "because" - even did on the stock turbos). I only plan on turning the boost up for the occasional pass down the 1/4, or maybe on the dyno, when I don't have to worry about too much continuous load on the engine. I believe the stock fuel system is capable of handling 550+RWHP if tuned right, just not for extended periods of time (I would never turn the boost up for a top-end highway pull, for instance, or even extended highway cruising). Heck, from what I've seen, I almost wouldn't be too surprised to see the stock fuel system hold up to a 133+MPH pass now and then, if it was tuned right on really high octane fuel - not that I'll be pushing that high.

EGT's to me can be too misleading without a proper setup, and even then, can still be tricky and require a lot of guesswork. And since for the cost of a proper EGT setup, a quality A/F monitoring solution can be purchased, it's not worth it to me. [email protected] is playing around with a SpeedPro system for the 2JZGTE right now, and I will probably switch to that this winter. It couples all the benefits of a VPC, GForce ECU, AFC/GCC/etc., ITC, misc. gauges, and more, all into one. I had been planning to go with a stand-alone A/F solution (I had the Greddy, but am hesitant to rely on it) like the Motec, but once I heard about the SpeedPro setup, I decided to hold off for that.

Until then, I'll keep the chicken foot waving, continue with the virgin sacrifices and all that, and try not to be too bummed if the Lean Demon gives me an excuse to build the engine.

-Pete

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Spool

· #17 · Sep 17, 2001

Pete:

What's a proper setup entail? I've seen headers with a probe in every runner! Is this what you mean?

But in reality, why wouldn't a probe that sits in the 6th runner *not* measure the temp properly? Just curious.

Also, why would A/F readings provide the same level of feedback? I understand that they sometimes go hand in hand, but I'd think you'd benefit by having them both on the car...not one or the other?

Great information BTW...very educational and is helping me decide which way to go, Thanks!

G

Discussion Starter · #18 · Sep 17, 2001

Peter,

I did at least have the BD fuel pulsation damper bypass on my car when I did the 130 MPH traps. Plus I had pure 100 octane in the car (which is all that's ever in the car since it never sees daily driving street duty any more).

In the future, please try to limit your virgin sacrifices. I'd been wondering why I couldn't find any more around here. Now I know. Please leave a few for the rest of us (who don't plan on "sacrificing" them).

G

Discussion Starter · #19 · Sep 17, 2001 (Edited)

Spool - Yeah, a probe as close as possible to every cylinder would at least tell you something. One probe can be very misleading - I've seen people with blown engines who never saw their EGT's go up. Why? Because they only lost one cylinder, running lean due to an injector problem, but every other one was so happy that the EGT's averaged out to be okey-dokey.

EGT's are also inaccurate over a range - you have to beat on the car to get a range where the EGT's max out at. This doesn't give you nearly enough information to tune. For example, you could be running rich as hell up to 6000RPM, and then starting to run lean. Watching your EGT's will make you fatten up the powerband after a big run, when in reality, you only need to add fuel at a specific point, and actually take fuel out, otherwise. By the reverse, if you're running lean around ~5000RPM, but rich up top, your EGT's may look fine, simply because the probes don't react fast enough.

The other problem with EGT's is that it doesn't seem to be a universal solution. While EGT's may help give you information as to long-term happiness of the setup (running 10:1 A/F with 10,000+ degrees EGT's isn't going to help...

), there are tons of situations where a car with low EGT's is running lean and a car with high EGT's is running rich, and this threshold varies hugely from car to car, probe to probe, mount point to mount point, etc.

To try to make an analogy, using an EGT gauge is like sticking a thermometer in your mouth when you're sick (or the way we tend to mount EGT probes, like taping it to your forehead), while an A/F gauge is like doing blood analysis.

My humble opinion, of course.

And yes, EGT is better than nothing, really. I should mount a probe just for that very basic information, but I'm not really beating on the car that often, so...

2DVS4U - I have enough of a hard time trying to find my own virgins for sacrifies, you think I'm going to share?!?!

-Pete

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supratt96

· #20 · Sep 18, 2001

Spool said:
At what boost levels did your EGTs with the SP-60 get too high?

What temp did they reach compared to the SP-63?

Did your EGTs climb slowly or rapidly say during a pass?

This should help me make a better turbo selection decision!

I appreciate it.

After tuning the 60, I would typically hit 860 to 880c at 28 psi. Before I had it properly tuned, it hit 925c and destroyed my head. at high boost, EGTs climb very fast. You can destroy a motor in a matter of seconds if you are too lean. You probably won't hear the detonation either, but it's happening.

The 63 typically made 100 to 120c less egt at the same boost setting.

In my opinion, the 63 is a better all around choice. With a .70 A/R, it will spool nearly as fast as the 60.

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