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The need for speed
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys... I plan on taking my car to a track day at Watkins Glen sometime soon and wanted to optimize my map for long WOT pulls... What have some of you AEM guys gone to keep the engine safe while at the track? Obviously, I plan on richening the mixture a bit to 11.0 and dumping in a little race gas to prevent knock, but should I retard the timing a bit from where my timing is on the street, or will this only cause the engine to heat up even more? I won't really get a chance to put the car through the "test" until I actually get up there at the track, where I won't have any time to make adjustments to the map.

I'd appreciate any input

-mike
 

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www.ziptieracing.com
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Kind of hard to make a general rule for this. 11.0:1 is fine for fuel. But for timing, it is more tricky. If you are too advanced, your egt's get high even without knock. If this is the case, then yes, you want to retard it. But if you retard too much, you are right. Things will get hot.

The easiest way to control temps tho is to just turbo down the boost...
 

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The need for speed
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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the input. I forgot to mention, I'll be running 16psi, 18psi at the most.

-Mike
 

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You're going to want to have the beefiest cooling system possible.

...and I hope you have a PS cooler + oil cooler.
 

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The need for speed
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Quick,
I've read Andi B's writeups about all the cooling mods he has done... but I am hoping I will be ok with my rather stock cooling. I have a greddy 3-row, electric fans (which I may disable w/ the AEM at high speeds) and the PS cooler the 3-row comes with. It's located just inside the drivers side air duct on my bumper so I'm sure it's seeing plenty of air...

What I don't have is an oil cooler or an upgraded radiator. I never thought an oil cooler was needed for road racing, just recommended. I don't plan on beating on the car too much, and may end up running a hard lap an then a "cool" lap as to not push the car too hard...

Having boiled my PS steering in the past at a track event, I plan on replacing the fluid immediately before and after, as well as the engine oil.

Also being early in the summer, I doubt ambient temperatures will be that warm (most likely 60-70 degrees) so the conditions shouldn't be that bad.
 

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I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, bud. Keep in mind that you may want to get a PWR rad. ...and stock fan is pretty good at cooling so you may want to consider going back if you have issues.
 

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mav7 said:
Quick,
I've read Andi B's writeups about all the cooling mods he has done... but I am hoping I will be ok with my rather stock cooling. I have a greddy 3-row, electric fans (which I may disable w/ the AEM at high speeds) and the PS cooler the 3-row comes with. It's located just inside the drivers side air duct on my bumper so I'm sure it's seeing plenty of air...

What I don't have is an oil cooler or an upgraded radiator. I never thought an oil cooler was needed for road racing, just recommended. I don't plan on beating on the car too much, and may end up running a hard lap an then a "cool" lap as to not push the car too hard...

Having boiled my PS steering in the past at a track event, I plan on replacing the fluid immediately before and after, as well as the engine oil.

Also being early in the summer, I doubt ambient temperatures will be that warm (most likely 60-70 degrees) so the conditions shouldn't be that bad.
At least get an oil temp guage that way if your oil is nearly as hot as the sun you can pull off the track and not cause any untimely engine wear or damage.
 

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The need for speed
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Discussion Starter #8
Good suggestion. Too bad MKIV's didn't come with an oil temp sesnor already...

Quick: the car came with the electronic fans (I dont like them)... and a stock fan/shroud is in high demand so people usually pick them right up. I'm keeping my eyes open though.

I'll look to installing an oil temp gauge and keeping an eye on water temps..

Thanks everyone who commented!

mike
 

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www.ziptieracing.com
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the 3 row pwr steering cooler is a piece of crap. Take the 30 mins and $25 bucks to replace it with a small B&M cooler. If you are any where near fast, you will boil it. Take some extra fluid with you just in case.

Also, flush your radiator and run a bottle of water wetter and water. It will help.
 

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You better let me know when you are going so we can see what a bpu and single can do on the road course together...
 

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The need for speed
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Discussion Starter #11
Will do... also, could you mention my name this weekend to the people at the gates? I plan on attending to watch you whip some butt at the track this weekend!

-mike
 

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Member Thingy
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since you are on the AEM, I highly reccommend an LED or warning buzzer which can sound if your air/fuel mixture runs lean, or your temp goes too high, or you lose oil pressure, etc.

It is easy to wire up, and easy to control. I have LEDS wired up for if at any time my A/F mixture hits 12.0 + while over 5 psi, if my EGTs exceed a given limit, if my boost spikes, or my fuel pressure drops suddenly, etc.

These little warnings allow you to drive without having to constantly monitor gauges and allow you to focus on the road ahead. If there is a problem, you will know instantly as a bright LED kicks off which will instantly grab your attention. I have them color coded, red for air/fuel, yellow for EGT, blue for coolant temp, etc.
That way I can make a split second decision as to whether or not the problem is critical, or if I can wait to get off the gas. Very helpful, and one of the best mods i've ever done.

Kevin Hoare apparently sells a box tied in with his AEM function display which allows for six outputs, so six differrent variables can be measured, and set to trigger warning indicators much like I described above. The AEM is limited to two on its own I believe.
 

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FWIW, I spoke with Reg Reimer at the Glen when he and Andi were doing the One Lap. I was concerned about tracking with an AFR being a flat ~13.0:1 and we looked at my '94 and 18psi BPU dyno together. Andi and I had been concerned it was too lean, but Reg said it's fine and didn't see any problem. He explained the engine management will lean it out as much as it safely can, and the dyno indicated that all appeared to be working fine.

It runs great on the track at up to ~16 psi with '94, and knock response has only been experienced at 16-17 when I'm really pushing it coming out of a corner and WOT...only T7 at RA and Oak Tree at VIR for some reason. Just a studder as timing is being pulled. I have no cooling mods other than for the brakes. My ps fluid usually does overflow a bit, and I have used race gas when it's really hot.

So I'm not sure what the engine management is doing to AFR on the track, but it's reasonable to assume it may be richening it up somewhat compared to 18 psi on the dyno. Just thought I'd share his views as I was a bit surprised. I usually just keep it down to 15 psi.

Bruce
 

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The need for speed
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Discussion Starter #14
Interesting Bruce... 13 does sound a bit on the lean side. Of course, A/Fs can always change from the dyno to the street. I wonder if you could pick up a bit more power if you had an s-afc and added a little fuel?

Kale, thanks for the information. I do plan on having some type of safety feature, except I want to cut ignition if the A/F warning goes too lean. What I would like to do is have a light come on when A/Fs go slightly lean, say >12.0 on WOT. Then if A/Fs go above 12.5 WOT or temps get too hot, I'd like to trigger ignition cut. When on the race track, I tend to keep my eyes on the track and a little LED just isn't going to catch my eye, especially in a sunny day. The extra assurance of ignition cut on a warning indication would be beneficial to us I feel. Of course the latest firmware added the functionality to kill ignition if a pre-defined boost level is hit, I wonder if we can set up a trigger to do the same thing from other variables? I'll have to check with AEM, but they've been having problems with their forum lately.

As far as EGT's, I can use the warning on my defi gauge although that's hard to see as well. When I get a chance I'd like to wire my EGT outuput to the AEM but I am not sure how to do that since the defi uses a control unit... Time for research I guess.
 

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Member Thingy
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I tend to keep my eyes on the track and a little LED just isn't going to catch my eye, especially in a sunny day.
I understand, I have 2 bright LEDs (the brightest I could find) for each sensor. They are in the dash just around the tach, and when they light up, even on the brightest of days, it's like someone shining a laser in my eye. Just make sure you get the right LEDs if you end up doing something like this.

The ignition-kill feature shouldn't be that hard to incorporate I imagine, I was going to try this earlier, but never got around to actually putting it in. I hadn't thought of staggering it higher than the normal warning, something which might be a great idea for my purposes. It gives you time to correct before actually killing the engine. Thanks for the idea.


Has anyone been able to datalog A/F mixtures over a 20 minute track session? Or has had a wideband display to watch? It would be interesting to see real-world AFR's on track, under high engine load, heat, boost, stress, etc over time. Has anyone noticed change in over time?
 

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kale said:
I understand, I have 2 bright LEDs (the brightest I could find) for each sensor. They are in the dash just around the tach, and when they light up, even on the brightest of days, it's like someone shining a laser in my eye. Just make sure you get the right LEDs if you end up doing something like this.

The ignition-kill feature shouldn't be that hard to incorporate I imagine, I was going to try this earlier, but never got around to actually putting it in. I hadn't thought of staggering it higher than the normal warning, something which might be a great idea for my purposes. It gives you time to correct before actually killing the engine. Thanks for the idea.


Has anyone been able to datalog A/F mixtures over a 20 minute track session? Or has had a wideband display to watch? It would be interesting to see real-world AFR's on track, under high engine load, heat, boost, stress, etc over time. Has anyone noticed change in over time?
When I ran my car on my old setup it would get richer as the car got hotter. up to .5 richer so I would dip into the 10's on afr WOT. Interested to see if other people had similar results. I'm not running a AEM, but this was w/ a Haltech. This was all running 100octane unleaded.
 

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The need for speed
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Discussion Starter #17
While I didn't have a wideband when I road raced in the past, I can say that on hotter days my A/F would be richer than on cooler nights. So I would assume the car would get richer as it gets warmer.
 

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mav7 said:
Will do... also, could you mention my name this weekend to the people at the gates? I plan on attending to watch you whip some butt at the track this weekend!

-mike
Your name will be at the gate. Bring an umbrella, looks like another rainy weekend in NY....

Mike
 

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mav7 said:
While I didn't have a wideband when I road raced in the past, I can say that on hotter days my A/F would be richer than on cooler nights. So I would assume the car would get richer as it gets warmer.
Isn't the richening AFR when running hotter the result of the ECU's efforts to control detonation as determined from sensor inputs?

As far as me adding a fuel controller to richen mine up a bit for more power, I think I'm running pretty close to various limits at 406/408 @ 18 already. I can't usually run more than 16-17 without clutch slip anyways and the knock response tells me the engine's had enough too :-( I'd want to go beyond basic BPU to support more power. I'll be trying out a water injection system on my MR2 track car this summer. It's tuned to 12.0:1 and 300 whp. I think WI would be great on the Supra as well as it might eliminate the need to run a FMIC and upgraded rad for BPU's on the track by reducing intake and combustion temps. I'll know it's working if it resists heat soak.

Bruce
 

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The need for speed
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Discussion Starter #20
I didn't realize the ECU would add fuel if it detected knock, I only thought it would pull timing? Anyway as a result of this, the car could get richer (and EGT temps get hotter).

Bruce: Water injection isn't such a bad idea although it adds complexity to things... one more thing to fill, one more thing to go wrong, etc. I'd rather get the stock cooling system as efficient as possible, and go from there if it isn't enough. People have been doing some interesthing things lately for cooling. A NSX that was in my area for a national NSX meet had the AEM with a single turbo setup (running 15psi) and water injection. It was a very neat setup and seemed to perform well (that car at 15psi destroyed my supra at 16psi). It also partticipated in a racing event at WGI and from what I've heard the car performed well with the water injection. I actually might look into that as a cooling mod... but after I get an upgraded radiator and an oil cooler. BTW.. that mr2 track car sounds mighty fun :)
 
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