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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Quick rundown of my setup.

Stock twins - TTC
MAP ECU2
OBD2 ECU
Greddy 3 Row
Greddy Profec B
DP/Exhaust
Intake
CoolingMist Meth injection kit

So I installed the meth kit and the MAP ECU2 over the winter and I've jut now got it running well, still a but rich up top but working on getting that to be better. I'm running a 50/50 mix of water and meth with a 380cc/min (6GPH) nozzle. I'm controlling the meth with the MAP ECU2 and have it set to come on at 12psi. Running 93 octane pump gas.

I just went out and did a quick highway pull through 3rd and 4th, boost was set low, it peaked at 19psi and fell to 18psi at redline.

Below is a screen shot of the MAP ECU log, along with a excel graph I made from exported data from an OBD2 logger.

You can see that AFR's are mid 10's - low 11's right now, but the timing advance sucks.

Any ideas? Seems like even without the Meth I should be seeing more timing that I'm seeing... Bigger meth nozzle? try 100% meth?



 

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saw nearly the exact same with mine. Went M7->M10 (~180 psi) & 100% meth and it got me full timing but I'm running a 61mm. Edit: Doh! Had C16 in the tank, see my updated post for 91 + meth info.

What pump pressure are you running?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
saw nearly the exact same with mine. Went M7->M10 (~180 psi) & 100% meth and it got me full timing but I'm running a 61mm.

What pump pressure are you running?
Thanks for the reply. The cooling mist pump I'm running is a 150psi pump. The nozzle I have is only a M5, I'm beginning to think that is just way too small to do much good. I went ahead a ordered myself a M10 nozzle today. My plan is to see how it reacts with that nozzle at 50/50 and if I still don't see the timing I'm looking for I'll try 100% meth.
 

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so the motor is basically pulling timing? how do you know? i'm just trying to decode this graph to figure it out.
ya the m10 nozzle should help a lot, also switch to 100% meth if you want, and add some uploan or some type of lubricant so that the meth is less corrosive.
 

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Thanks for the reply. The cooling mist pump I'm running is a 150psi pump. The nozzle I have is only a M5, I'm beginning to think that is just way too small to do much good. I went ahead a ordered myself a M10 nozzle today. My plan is to see how it reacts with that nozzle at 50/50 and if I still don't see the timing I'm looking for I'll try 100% meth.

Report back how the timing reacts with the M10.

Somebody also suggested a M10 nozzle for stock twins and a small single.

Do you run the meth progressive or do you just switch it on at 12psi?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
so the motor is basically pulling timing? how do you know? i'm just trying to decode this graph to figure it out.
ya the m10 nozzle should help a lot, also switch to 100% meth if you want, and add some uploan or some type of lubricant so that the meth is less corrosive.
Yes the stock ECU is pulling timing, the graph shows rpm and timing through a 3rd-4th gear pull. I'd like to see at least 20 degrees of timing (basically full timing on the stock ECU).

Krister, I'll report my findings on the M10 nozzle. No progressive setup, I just have the meth controlled by the pressure switch of the MAP ECU2 which is currently set to turn on at 12psi.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
UPDATE:

I got the M10 nozzle and just got back from some quick testing where I did 2 3rd-4th gear pulls. Big improvement, but at only 17-18psi I was expecting to see slightly better timing advance, am I expecting too much? I may have to try running 75 or 100% meth and see how that does. I want to run 19-20+psi on the stock twins on pump /meth, but will only do so it I can see good timing logs.

Timing graphs below:

Pull 1:




Pull 2:
 

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I've never seen a case where 100% alcohol [methanol/ethanol] didn't outperform an alcohol blend with water by a large margin. I've seen no real world data that water in the air or fuel intake stream positively affects forced induction combustion. I could argue the opposite. Tracks report humidity as well as the temperature. Both negatively affect performance when elevated.

Technically methanol injection should raise the hp/timing well above leaded race fuel when used in abandance. I've never seen that - most likely due to the uneven spread across the cylinders.


JH
 

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Same here John. In my experience 50/50 through an M10 (or M15) nozzle, which 500-600hp supras seem to like, is just too much water for good power.

Josh, really appreciate the data! Let us know how the 75/25 works for you.

Edit: This also goes to show that 93 octane is nowhere near enough for full timing at 18psi as many seem to think.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Same here John. In my experience 50/50 through an M10 (or M15) nozzle, which 500-600hp supras seem to like, is just too much water for good power.

Josh, really appreciate the data! Let us know how the 75/25 works for you.

Edit: This also goes to show that 93 octane is nowhere near enough for full timing at 18psi as many seem to think.
John and Earl,

Thanks for the responses. I was very surprised to see how poor my timing was at ~18psi even with the M5 nozzle. I never logged my timing before the injection, but as you say it's clear that 93 octane is nowhere near enough octane for full timing even at "low boost" of 18psi which everyone seems to run. I have been running this way for years, good thing the stock ECU does a great job of pulling timing when needed.

Looks like it's time for me to drain my tank and try a mix with more meth.
 

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Josh, I'd like to see what your timing is with no meth or water injection for comparison at the same boost. If you could also do a race gas pull that would be "All Encompassing" and worthy of being in a Meth FAQ.

On the last 2 pulls it appears as if you're running full timing in the upper rpm band. If I'm reading this correctly, Pull 1 shows 18 - 23 degrees for the entire pull of 3rd gear. 4th gear shows 15 - 21 degrees. At the low rpms (18 degrees and 15 degrees) I wouldn't think the meth is even spraying based on your pressure switch of 12 psi.

Which OBDII logger are you using?


JH
 

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Discussion Starter #12
John,

I'll see about doing a no meth pull, and maybe a race gas pull at some point.

Yes you are reading my graphs correctly, and it does appear that I am getting full timing at the high rpm's. I hit 12psi at about 4krpms in 3rd, and hit 12psi very quickly after the shift to 4th. Maybe I would be better served to turn the meth on a bit sooner, as perhaps it takes a small amount of time after it turns on the pump to get the flow I need.

I'm running scantool.net OBD2 hardware and I'm currently running ProScan software. The software is good, but the graphing it does is laking for what I want. It does allow a .csv data export, which after some sorting in Excel I'm able to make graphs that I like.
 

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This is good info as I also run meth/water injection. I currently run the m15 nozzle with 75%meth and 25% water. I ran this set up for over 1 year on a Gt42r
70mm Turbo @24-25psi on 91 octane with no problems. I also run this on my "upgraded twins" @20psi. I havent dynoed the twins yet but with a street tune with Vpc/gcc they trapped [email protected] I am definately curious to see how the timing changes when you log 100% meth and also race gas. Thanks for your work in getting thins info to us where we can definately benefit.

Thanks
Lawrence
 

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The meth is simply not providing the required octane. Try some 110 or 114 leaded race gas and your timing will be around 23-24 degrees even at peak torque. You'll feel it in the seat of the pants as well.

This is very good data. I've been very curious about meth and effective octane for a long time. It looks like the meth just doesn't work very well.

And I've been saying for years that the "18psi on pump" rule is too liberal. That's what my OBDII logger told me 4-5 years ago.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The meth is simply not providing the required octane. Try some 110 or 114 leaded race gas and your timing will be around 23-24 degrees even at peak torque. You'll feel it in the seat of the pants as well.

This is very good data. I've been very curious about meth and effective octane for a long time. It looks like the meth just doesn't work very well.

And I've been saying for years that the "18psi on pump" rule is too liberal. That's what my OBDII logger told me 4-5 years ago.
I'm not quite ready to give up on the meth injection yet. I'm confident that with 100% meth I will have full timing, hopefully I'll get to try that soon and I'll be sure to post up my results again.


HotSoup, so far I'm liking the MAP ECU2, as it is allowing me to control the meth injection and I can better tune the parts of the map when the meth is on. It was a bit of a pain to tune the closed loop portion of the map with the OBD2 ECU, but having a OBD logger running showing the fuel trims made it doable.
I tuned everything by myself on the street and I have it running very well, still a bit rich up top, but I'm slowly working on that.
My car ran well on the VPC, but I think that the fine tuning on the MAP ECU will in the end provide better results.
 

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I'm not quite ready to give up on the meth injection yet. I'm confident that with 100% meth I will have full timing, hopefully I'll get to try that soon and I'll be sure to post up my results again.
Thats my hope for you as well. Waynecar is able to get full timing @ 21psi on his T-78, 264 cammed, stock fuel car on 93 octane. He is running an M15 with 100%.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thats my hope for you as well. Waynecar is able to get full timing @ 21psi on his T-78, 264 cammed, stock fuel car on 93 octane. He is running an M15 with 100%.
Yes I read about Wayne's great results with the methanol injection. I wanted to try 50/50 first, but it's looking more and more like a larger percentage of methanol will help me. Now I just need to find a good local source for methanol as tight now I'm buying the 12oz. bottles of HEET, not the most cost effective method.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Went back out tonight with 100% meth in the tank. I had driven to work today with this and in the couple of quick bursts I did the car felt great so I was expecting good results.

It was 10-15 degrees colder out tonight then when I did my other logging, so this is not quite an apples to apples compassion, but the boost was set to the same level (~18psi). AFR's were in the 10's, I accidentally shut my laptop and lost the MAP ECU logs so I don't know exactly unfortunately.

First up is a 4th gear pull:

Timing looks much better, still maybe a little low in the lower rpm range. I may consider bringing the meth on a bit sooner (maybe 10psi) and see how that does. Seat of the pants feel was great, it was pulling hard.


I got the attention of a bike and he wanted to line up. The following graph is a 3rd-4th-start of 5th pull. I took the jump on the bike in 3rd and pulled slightly on him until I let off :) Wish I knew what kind of bike it was...



Again timing looks pretty good.


I'm probably heading to the drag strip on Friday and I plan to do some pump gas+meth runs to dial in my ARF's, and if the timing is still looking good I'll try upping the boost :)

Conclusion: 100% meth is the way to go :bigok:
 
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