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25psi = 14" brakes :)
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Just something that needed to be posted in regards to a certain closed thread on painting your intercooler.
Paint, even flat paint is not as good as a coating formulated to transfer heat and prevent corrosion.
See the following from Techline Coatings.


Being able to move and control heat is of tremendous importance. Excessive temperature can lead to metal fatigue, boiling fluids, damaging metal expansion, reduce electrical efficiency and a host of other problems. Traditionally dealing with heat has been handled either by expanding the radiating surface, constructing parts from materials that are more heat conductive and using the color black. With advances in thermal management methods additional ways of enhancing heat transfer now exist. TECH LINE has developed a Thermal Management System ™ . Individual products such as TLTD can be utilized by themselves or in conjunction with other coatings to manage the flow of heat. TLTD is capable of transferring heat faster than the bare metal surface. While TLTD does make use of the color black, TLTD is more than a simple "black body" heat emitting coating. TLTD includes ingredients that also contribute to increased heat flow. Combining these properties with increased corrosion protection and the thin film application technique, maximizes thermal transfer capabilities. Effective on Brakes, Intake Manifolds, Cylinder Heads, Oil Pans, Radiators, Intercoolers and … more.

I plan on coating my engine block, pan, head (outside), intake outsides and anything else I want to radiate heat. (Fluidyne radiator perhaps....?)
On the inside go the Thermal Barrier coatings. (I've done this with my exhaust, and it is amazing how well these thin coatings control heat.)
Later.
 
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Not sure why the other thread had to be closed but I am a noob anyway.

I did more homework on radiant heat. Radiant heat is not asorbed by air. The effect of the black paint is that it radiates IR waves to near by objects. My final comment on this is that it does matter, but not as much as I had originally thought. In the end, I will not be painting mine since it is a topmount and will "soak" more heat than emit up there.

What the difference will be I can't say. I got my answers though. No, nobody has done it. I learned a lot on the topic along the way.

Noob out
 

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This Is Why I'm Hot.....
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1st of all that one guy's thread should not have been closed. It was completely valid as a topic & deserved more respect than closure.

2nd, thank you Mr adjuster for providing some published information regarding the value of black to heat dispersion.

This concept, much like using water injection are often maligned due to ignorance...& after 28 years of modding Toyotas, I've seen it more than this one time.

All the 'brainiacs' who insulted Mr Schmleff, owe him a HUGE APOLOGY.
 
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SupraTrey said:
I agree..... this forum is really starting to Blow.
It should, it is about turbos..:p otherwise it would suck.

I used color alot under the cowl of my race plane. Things that I want to stay cool are silver, things that I want to cool are black. This serves more to keep things like intake piping cool. That is due to location though. With everything around the intake being hot, I want it silver to stay cool. But it it is out in the open like a FMIC, it may help, I just cant say for sure. That was why I started the thread. i was looking for other expierence, not opinions.

Noob out (again)
 
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I closed the other thread, to stop it's downward spiral.

First off, I apologize for sounding rude, I didn't mean it, I was simply joking around - Guess you can't always come across the way you mean in writing ;)

Anyhow, Larry, as the postee stated, after further research, there is no increased thermal efficency with colours - it will only work to deflect IR, that's all.

Continue on with productive discussion :D
 
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amorak said:
I closed the other thread, to stop it's downward spiral.

First off, I apologize for sounding rude, I didn't mean it, I was simply joking around - Guess you can't always come across the way you mean in writing ;)

Anyhow, Larry, as the postee stated, after further research, there is no increased thermal efficency with colours - it will only work to deflect IR, that's all.

Continue on with productive discussion :D

P.S. This forum does not blow :p
Bit of a missquote, but I cant complain too much. Not sure about increase in efficency, thats all.

I think there is still more to cover. if something is more absorbtive, it is also more emissive. I am looking into the effect of that on something like a FMIC. There is a reason for the 80 degree drop in tempreture due to the black paint in the example I gave in the other post. I just am not sure why it works yet.

Noob in (again)
 

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25psi = 14" brakes :)
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
"Anyhow, Larry, as the postee stated, after further research, there is no increased thermal efficency with colours - it will only work to deflect IR, that's all. "
From Amorak's post.

Well, there is a problem with this statement.
It's wrong.
Sorry Amorak, but your wrong. No hard feelings.
Acually, let me expand on somthing. It is not the color we are looking for here, but the increase in ability to absorb (from the parent material) heat, and then radiate it into the air (or any other fluid/gas you want to use) passing by.
Flat black is pretty good at this. The new thermal dispersant coatings are even better. Think of them as "paint" because that is how they are applied to the base material.
Please read some more about this at Swaintech, HPC or Techline Coatings. They are much better at explaining how it all works than I am.
Sorry, I don't like to call someone wrong, but dude, your applying a theory against what really works in the real world. Real world temp reductions are not a theory. They are science.
Later :) and peace man.
 
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BTW: I congratulate our new brother in supe Schmleff for thinking outside the box :bigthumb:
 
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The more I think about this the more interesting it gets.

We are working with IR here. It dissapates like light. Black is the best absorber of ir and physics states that if it is a good absorber, it is a good emitter.

It will emit whether there is something near it to absorb it or not. So a black fmic is emitting ir heat that a shiney one would not. The question is how much heat are we really getting rid of?

It is working just like radiant heat in a large building (the big long tubes). IR heat is not absorbed by the air and has no effect on its temp. For compairisons sake, think of a small section of that stuff with the same area of an intercooler, and you can see that it would give off alot of ir heat. Same as a heat lamp, it is emmiting in the same fassion as a body (like and intercooler), but the wavelength of the ir heat that we are dissapating is not visable.

Rather than post a bunch of ego driven crap or guesses, I want to look into it more and come back with some real answers.

And I do still contend that black paint alone MAY work as I previously state.
 
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adjuster said:
"Anyhow, Larry, as the postee stated, after further research, there is no increased thermal efficency with colours - it will only work to deflect IR, that's all. "
From Amorak's post.

Well, there is a problem with this statement.
It's wrong.
Sorry Amorak, but your wrong. No hard feelings.
Acually, let me expand on somthing. It is not the color we are looking for here, but the increase in ability to absorb (from the parent material) heat, and then radiate it into the air (or any other fluid/gas you want to use) passing by.
Flat black is pretty good at this. The new thermal dispersant coatings are even better. Think of them as "paint" because that is how they are applied to the base material.
Please read some more about this at Swaintech, HPC or Techline Coatings. They are much better at explaining how it all works than I am.
Sorry, I don't like to call someone wrong, but dude, your applying a theory against what really works in the real world. Real world temp reductions are not a theory. They are science.
Later :) and peace man.

WHat you've posted is not a link to how black paint increases thermal transfer efficiency. That is what I was refuting. These are chemicals designed for thermal efficiency increases (whether or not they work, that's up for debate). Paint, as in the stuff in a spray can, etc, that we were talking about, offers nothing but a marginal decrease in thermal efficiency because it's acting as an insulator. It will only server to reflect Infrared Radiation (IR).


But you bring up some interesting information in the form of these thermal coatings that claim to increase thermal heat dissipation... Anyone have some first hand experience with them, or any scientific, un-biased research on them?

Come to think of it, has anyone seen any positive scientific literature in teh fiel of coatings that improve Thermal dissipation efficiency?
 
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Schmleff said:
The more I think about this the more interesting it gets.

We are working with IR here. It dissapates like light. Black is the best absorber of ir and physics states that if it is a good absorber, it is a good emitter.

It will emit whether there is something near it to absorb it or not. So a black fmic is emitting ir heat that a shiney one would not. The question is how much heat are we really getting rid of?

It is working just like radiant heat in a large building (the big long tubes). IR heat is not absorbed by the air and has no effect on its temp. For compairisons sake, think of a small section of that stuff with the same area of an intercooler, and you can see that it would give off alot of ir heat. Same as a heat lamp, it is emmiting in the same fassion as a body (like and intercooler), but the wavelength of the ir heat that we are dissapating is not visable.

Rather than post a bunch of ego driven crap or guesses, I want to look into it more and come back with some real answers.

And I do still contend that black paint alone MAY work as I previously state.

:bigthumb:

You're the type of guy we need more of around here!
 

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This Is Why I'm Hot.....
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Schmleff said:
.....I used color alot under the cowl of my race plane. ..... i was looking for other expierence, not opinions.

Noob out (again)
Hello Schmleff,
Race plane?
Watching the races @ Reno is inspirational. Anyone who has even a passing interest in internal combustion engines should take a look at what motivates a P-51 Mustang.

I have collaborated w/Chris Jensen regarding both insulators & dispersants, & the temperature improvements they provide are real. Chris has been an engineer at Boeing since I've known him, & anal-retentive is a good description. Anyway, thnx to his input, I chose to use a variety of coatings, & expectations were met. I didn't need to put a thermometer to any of it to know that things had improved, they just did. There have been a few adventurous sorts out there who have used fancy thermistor-based gizmos to measure the difference, but I'm not one of them.

Thermal dispersant enhanced, black body emissions in well ventilated locations. Pure VooDoo. Gotta love it.

Take care.
 

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Ronin
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conversations like this are few and far between on these boards, i love it. Makes me want to post again. We need to let this thread grow out into other topics though, some good information could spread from this.

Speaking of all this heat, do you guys think/see/ know of a vast improvement over the control of thermal expansion with these coatings. I wonder if coating the heads and block would do to help reduce wear by keeping the clearances and tolerances more in range. Wouldnt the engine run more efficient if the heat were causing the oils to be less viscous while the metal parts stayed where they are set when cold? I understand an engine is meant to expand a little, but I figure its another safeguard against loosing a bearing because two parts welded themselves together because the oil didnt keep film.

Forgive me if im way off.. im just a young 20year old at the beggining of learning the more "advanced science" of improving engine performance. But im trying like hell to learn.
 

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wha huh?
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damn...thats awesome
 

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25psi = 14" brakes :)
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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks Larry, my dad worked for Boeing for about 25 years too, and I've been around high performance engines, both Jet and piston since I was a little kid.
I guess the reason I like the coatings is that they have become affordable to the world because of companies like Boeing, and other areospace uses. I can't afford a Inconel or Mar-M exhaust manifold, valves and exhaust system, but I can benefit from the relatively inexpensive coatings developed to push the envelope of temp. extremes these metals see in use.
Lucky for us, the coatings work just as well on cast iron as Ti or Stainless steel, Et al.
I've been wrong before Amorak, but in this case, the proof is in the temps. If it works, there must be a reason for it. Theory's be damned.
 

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25psi = 14" brakes :)
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Discussion Starter #18
There are a few interesting places to read more about all of this.
I'm not sure of the exact websites, but you can find them pretty quickly off google or any other search.
Techline Coatings.
HPC (High performance coatings.)
Swaintech.
Cotronics. (Great source of cermet based products, and they are closet speed freeks:) I told them I wanted to use their wrap for my car, and they were totally stoked as most of the folks who order stuff from them are trying to insulate laser beams, or Ion cannons.... Or whatever....
They even offered to make up some silicone based material with cermet fibers in it that we could spread over anything to help insulate it from heat, and yet retain flexability. (such as wires, or plugs you don't want to bake....) I have not followed up with them on this idea, but might in the future.
Later.
 

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Hah, I was just typing a response. Anyway, yeah Schmleff, I read the link you posted, good stuff. I hope I didn't come as .."a bunch of ego driven crap or guesses...".I just wasn't sure and didn't know where to look regarding our opposing opinions. I just didn't know for sure. I do think that in this application, gains would be minimal. IMO, surface area has more to do with an IC (or any other "radiator") than what color it is. That's why they have all the little fins that are designed to allow air to pass over (and carry off heat) with the least amount of restriction. I have learned from this....uh, new thread. This is the good stuff, where we dig into the meat of things :D

just to clear this up....i didnt mention ceramic coating with the intent of saying it was meant for heat transfer(might have been some confusion) i just meant that surface coating/preparation profoundly affects heat transfer properties whether it be making it more(ic) or less(c-coating exhaust) succeptible heat transfer. i re-read my post and it didnt really say what i wanted it to...so i just had to clear this up.
Thanks....I got the wrong impression from that. I thought you were implying otherwise....my bad.
 
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adjuster said:
Thanks Larry, my dad worked for Boeing for about 25 years too, and I've been around high performance engines, both Jet and piston since I was a little kid.
I guess the reason I like the coatings is that they have become affordable to the world because of companies like Boeing, and other areospace uses. I can't afford a Inconel or Mar-M exhaust manifold, valves and exhaust system, but I can benefit from the relatively inexpensive coatings developed to push the envelope of temp. extremes these metals see in use.
Lucky for us, the coatings work just as well on cast iron as Ti or Stainless steel, Et al.
I've been wrong before Amorak, but in this case, the proof is in the temps. If it works, there must be a reason for it. Theory's be damned.
I think we need to get on the same page here ;)

I agree with you, Larry_A, et al. There are many coatings that help reduce the thermal dessipation of combustion gasses, etc in your exhaust - IE how ceramic coating keeps the heat "in" longer.

All I was debating was how simple, ordinary black paint does nothing to help an I/C dessipate heat any better.


Alrighty?

As for this thread and all that's involved... :bigthumb:
 
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