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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
car won't start today :( Please help

and the only codes are 21, 27, 28 (all O2, so that shouldn't mater)
car cranks, but doesn't kick over, like the ignitor issue, but I can hear it startup just a tiny bit, the sounds where it "gurgles" as it's about to kick over, so it's igniting some fuel in the cylinders
no other engine codes , so I dunno what else to check
:dunno:
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
You guys think it might be the distributor? I don't see any error code in the cart for the distributor, so if it's bad it wouldn't generate a code, right???
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
WhiteBlazze said:
The Stock NKIV NA Ignitor is as follows..

PIN1 = IGF......Red-Yellow Wire......Runs to ECU B58
PIN2 = IGT......Red-White Wire.......Runs to ECU B57
PIN3 = B-0......Black-Orange Wire...Power Fed by Ignition switch and supplies power to the ignition coil (PIN1 on coil). It is also ran into a noise filter positioned next to the NA coil
PIN4 = EXT ( Tach Signal )....Black-White Wire....Runs to cluster for tach gauge, and to Data Link Connector1
PIN5 = C-........Black-Red Wire.........Runs to Ignition coil ( PIN2 on coil )

based on this layout
I can wire
Pin1 and pin2 to direct to the ECU
but how do I run a wire from pin 3 to the coil (if I tap off a second wire off it to noise filter) where does it plug into ther noise filter, thats has 2 wires... right?

also "cluster for tach gauge" means I'll have to pull the instument clsuter right? can anyone confirm that white wire doesn't split elsewhere, I'm guessin git doesn't


I just want to isolate the stock wire form the ECU to the Ignitor..... unless the short I have if from the ignitor onward...... :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
after talking to my friend whose a mechanic, he's pretty stumped too, his next suggestion is maybe a bad connection at the altenator.

other possiblities I came up with:
I'm going to go back over all the wiring.
Also disconnect my afc/avcr/wideband off of the ecu power and tap them elsewhere.
(maybe use a relay off of ign +12V, and draw the main current from the battery)
OR
maybe a bad connection at the coil/bad ground?


after reading
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h39.pdf

the ignitor is basically a super high speed relay that switches power to the coil on and off real fast

I opend one up to take a look inside
It was actually filled with this clear goo, like from an aliens movie! Not sure why its in there, maybe to cushion the unit from shock?? :dunno:

anyways here's a pic of it, in case your curious
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
got to talk to DaveH,
he suggests maybe check the coil for a partial short,
and to recheck all the wiring.

also I'm going to price out the IS300 coil packs/ignitor and a MKIII CPS
I might just rip out the stock system and go AEM with coilpacks
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
OK I did as much as I could today before it got too dark

checked the ground on the coil, and it's good, I even wired in another ground wire from the coil mounting bolt (there are 4) to the chassis.

re-did the wiring from the harness to the coil, used a slightkey thicker guage wire.
The harness had been cut before when I installed the MSD 6BTM.

also checked the wiring around the distributor.
and found the RED wire had some of the insulation cut off.
It was not frayed. It was a clean cut, like when tap a wire by cuting out the 2-3mm of insultaion to wrap another wire lead to it. I have no idea where this came from
I am the 2nd owener of the car, first one was an older gentleman, and it was 100% stock
(I'm chalking this one up to xutech also :madf: :blast: :furious: )

I think that might have been causing a problem too, but not sure to what extent. The wire still had all the metal threads, didn't look like any of those were severed.
but the metal was dull like when oxidation occurs.
I put some lithium grease on that and taped it up.
When I get a chance I'll cut and resolder fresh sections of leads.

Car still did not start, of course the ignitor won;'t come back to life,
but I think I lessened the load/resistense on the wires
(been reading toyota's ASE exam manual; and they seem to make a big deal about it :gapteeth: it's got 3 chapters devoted to electrical principles)

I pulled the codes again, and to my suprise, I only had ONE
and it was code 27 sub oxygen sensor,
which is weird because I would have expected code 28 the rear oxygen sensor, since i have my wideband's narrowband output feeding pins 48 and 47 on the ECU.
So the ecu should be satisfied that the main and sub oxygen sensors are working. The rear O2 has no feed
tough I did finally find out it is pin 30 on the ECU
I'm now thinking of taping the narroband output and splicing it to pin 30 as well. SO that the narrowband will feed all three pins 47,48 and 30.

I should have another ignitor coming in, I did have a spare, but it turned out to be a dud as soon as it came out of the box :rolleyes: :furious:

Even if I plug in a new ignitor there's no way to tell immediatly if it's good now (of course I'll solder the red wire on the ditributor first as well as rewire my afc/avcr/wideband to pull power from a new source)
:ugh2:


if after even all this fails
I'm getting the AEM and going to coil packs
:bowdown:
 

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FWIW, I am pretty sure the ignitor is not a relay... it has a circut and coil that changes your 12V DC to AC power......

If it were just a relay, your ECU could switch things much faster than it could.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
98mkiv said:
FWIW, I am pretty sure the ignitor is not a relay... it has a circut and coil that changes your 12V DC to AC power......

If it were just a relay, your ECU could switch things much faster than it could.
Your are right, I should have updated my ealier posts. in the begining I had mistaken it for a relay when I saw that forked arrow representation in the eletrical diagram. (I'm not good at ready those, still learning)

slice of Toyota ASE manual covering ignition ->
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf

it shows the ignitor (also reffered to as transistor) as switching between 2 modes
one for starting and one for running (switches power on and off to the coil. The speed/frequency of which is based on rpm, load, and some other inputs)
 

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kmn5 said:
if after even all this fails
I'm getting the AEM and going to coil packs
:bowdown:
I would highly advise you to not do this. Do yourself a favor and get the car running properly in stock form, and then go to the coil setup. I sell/install/use Aem's all day long, and believe me troubleshooting a similar issue can be quite difficult when you dont know what the problem was in the first place. Sometimes throwing money at problems will lead to more problems.

Josh
 

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kmn5 said:
if after even all this fails
I'm getting the AEM and going to coil packs
:bowdown:

yes, nothing like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire!

if NA igntion problem is a molehill, AEM install & setup is Mount Everest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well I was figuring since I am going to rewire things from scratch I might as well put in the coil packs now.
I plan to wire direct from the ecu to the distributor/ignitor/coil/? (need to doublecheck, since this is off the top of my head at the moment)
bypassing the factory wires.

Anyways I just ordered another distributor and (another) ignitor.
And see how it does this weekend. See if I can fix the stock system.

Aside from getting regular wire with the same guage size,
any suggestions?
I know I've seen tinned copper wire before (better conductivity over standard copper), but I'll have to special order that.
Right now I'll prolly pick it up form the local hardware stop or homedepot

does anyone make bundles wire in a havy duty hi-temp insultaion or anythign like that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Just an update,
I changed the distributor and redid the wiring to the coil yesterday.
Today removed the AVCR entirley, and rewired power for the afc2 and wideband controller, so they pull power from the battery via a relay so as not to stress the ecu power wire.

not sure what else to do, if this doesn't work I will put in new wires from the ECU to the Ingnitor/distributor/coil :sad: :dunno:
 

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Have you actually checked for spark, manually? Does the coil give spark to the distributor? Is this a recent Na-t with injectors and hasnt fired yet?

Im putting money on fouled plugs. Cmon, hit this thread up, im a shitty tech, but have solved many an NA-T issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The Quickness said:
Have you actually checked for spark, manually? Does the coil give spark to the distributor? Is this a recent Na-t with injectors and hasnt fired yet?

Im putting money on fouled plugs. Cmon, hit this thread up, im a shitty tech, but have solved many an NA-T issue.
Nope it's not a new install,
been runing for over a year
I have 440 injectors, new irridium plugs were also changed out less the 1.5k miles ago; this was when the car was runnig, car behaved as usual after the plug swap

when the ignitor dies (burns out) there is no spark,
when I put in a new ignitor there is spark,
this has been ruled out along time ago see previous posts

also Coil has always provides spark whe used with a working ingnitor

thanks for the reply, but something is causing the ignitor to short out, it's not a problem with the plugs
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
kmn5 said:
not sure what else to do, if this doesn't work I will put in new wires from the ECU to the Ingnitor/distributor/coil :sad: :dunno:
in case it's not clear this is if it fails again with the current ignitor,

A new one was put in on Sun, and it fired right up.
Of course we don't know if the system is working 100% yet as it takes 2-3 weeks for each new ignitor to short out :(


fyi: car dies, install new ignitor, car starts again :dunno: :crying:
at this point it's definitely a short somewhere, just a matter of finding where in the wires or the component causing the short
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
eblick99 said:
ouch bad harness?
yeap thats the only other explaination if it still burns out
I've already ordered 500ft of wire in 5 different colors (100ft each), for if and when the time comes to bypass the factory ignition portion of the harness

I dread that day..... :crying:

should know in like 2-3 weeks ohnoes:

shit like this makes me appreciate my dad's 1971 dodge dart (no he's not a collector, he's just poor, ha ha)
It has maybe 20 feet of wiring in the whole friggin car!
 
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