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Discussion Starter #1
anyone ever thought of or have any experience with custom making a 2jz-gte short block out of cast alluminum and have it sleeved ?

i know it sounds crazy and why would anyone really need to do it.. but i was brainstorming for an over all car balancing point of view.
instead of swapping motors such as the top secret wide body supra or the older JGTC supras did with the 3s-gte (mr2 motor). making it lighter and having the engine closer to the fire wall...

i'm posting this in the road racing section because i'm sure people would like to find ways of making the supra handle and perform better on the road course. lightening the engine bay i KNOW will significantly help because the heavy inline 6 isn't really too light.


has anyone ever weighed the 2jz- gte (bottom end/short block) and how much converting it to cast alluminum might be and weigh?

i'm sure if done correctly the block will still be able to hold 850+rwhp with all the supporting mods.... ???

thanks for any feedback
 

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brian_k03 said:
supras are built proof because of the iron block.
Captain obvious to the rescue!

just kidding.

The best way to do that is to get laminated "billet" aluminum stock to machine out the cooling and pison holes. Top fuel steel sleeves for power and endurance, and you would definetly want dry sump oil system.

Dropping 300 lbs off the front of the car would definetly be attractive for tracking purposes. Faster turn in, better weight balance, higher cornering speeds, transitions easier and the front tires would last a lot longer, not to mention the better power to weight ratio.

For a purely track car fully optimized might be worth a second or two if you have budget to blow.
 

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SUPRAT said:
Captain obvious to the rescue!

just kidding.

The best way to do that is to get laminated "billet" aluminum stock to machine out the cooling and pison holes. Top fuel steel sleeves for power and endurance, and you would definetly want dry sump oil system. .
Well, why mess with something that works.
Just saying that an iron block wouldnt be as strong power wise.
More difficult for that 850 hp.
 

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actual weight loss moving from iron to aluminum would be swomewhere in the neighborhood of 100-125 lbs at most. The grand national guys have been doing it for years. Also, with roadracing in mind, there is really no reason to have 850+ hp anyway, in the supra chassis, it is VERY difficult to make use of that kind of powerband on the track. So this would be a very expensive, but with track performance in mind, very worthwhile mod.
 

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brian_k03 said:
Well, why mess with something that works.
Just saying that an iron block wouldnt be as strong power wise.
More difficult for that 850 hp.
you mean an aluminum block wouldn't be as strong power wise.

Actually like I said before you can get aluminum stronger than the iron, it just will cost astronomical. Do you have any knowledge of laminated billet aluminum? That stuff is bulletproof. literally. They x-hatch the grain of the billet in forged layers and make "plywood" type of metal. Much stronger and lighter than cast iron. Horizontal layers make the block impervious to damage. twist is almost eliminated, resistance to heat is better because of aluminum's multiple times better heat dissapation properties, and with top fuel steel sleeves, this block is a few times stronger than even our low cost bulletproof cast iron. Price Price Price.

As far as I know the GN doesn't use a laminated billet block but a cast aluminum. The difference is like a M1 Abrahms tank to an swat peacekeeper. Both are bulletproof to a point but there is no comparison as far as performance in extreme conditions. You can use the laminated billet aluminum block as a 3000HP top fuel drag car- you would be lucky to get 600hp out of a cast aluminum solid deck.

lastly a cast aluminum is poorer quality aluminum than billet stock. You are not going to pour 6061 alloy in sand to cast a part like a block. Forgings and strengthining techniques are best used on machinable and workable pieces of material like laminates. That being said, a laminate block is so much denser and stronger the way it is made that you need much less material to build it than cast. It would be even lighter than the cast unit. That is where I got the 200-300lbs from. Much more weight savings than cast. You could probably pick up a laminated aluminum block. Try that with a cast iron.


my $0.03
 

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kale said:
actual weight loss moving from iron to aluminum would be swomewhere in the neighborhood of 100-125 lbs at most. The grand national guys have been doing it for years. Also, with roadracing in mind, there is really no reason to have 850+ hp anyway, in the supra chassis, it is VERY difficult to make use of that kind of powerband on the track. So this would be a very expensive, but with track performance in mind, very worthwhile mod.
I think if you had that as a goal to track it(850+HP) it can be done. There is enough technology and knowledge of setup out there, that isn't a unreasonable goal for a ultimate track car. The right parts, tuning and performance goals could make for a hard to beat combination.

Reg Reimer, Kent Rafferty, Hikari works, SW, Titan, Ken H., Nils L., Andi B, ect. ect... had 650RWHP-700RWHP ~800HP crank it did pretty well with street biased tires and tuner suspention. You are definetly going to make some sacrifices in drivability on the street as with any killer performance car would. But a pure track car I can definetly see a tractable 850RWHP+ Today. Maybe not 3-5 yrs ago. :blah:
 

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Of all the people you mentioned maybe half of them actually road raced seriously. Of those, only two of them that I know of actually posted good results and they didn't do it with 850+hp. I think you're confused.

I had this idea back when I first started dealing with my new motor but my buddy Sushi mentioned that it would be a PITA until someone decided ot drop the dough and truly replicate the block properly.

Cutting weight and putting it in the proper places as well as optimizing the suspension like some have began doing are the keys. The Supra makes way more HP than it needs. this is why the fastest guy on this board that I know of uses a SMALL turbo which spools quick and has more of a linear power curve.

SUPRAT said:
I think if you had that as a goal to track it(850+HP) it can be done. There is enough technology and knowledge of setup out there, that isn't a unreasonable goal for a ultimate track car. The right parts, tuning and performance goals could make for a hard to beat combination.

Reg Reimer, Kent Rafferty, Hikari works, SW, Titan, Ken H., Nils L., Andi B, ect. ect... had 650RWHP-700RWHP ~800HP crank it did pretty well with street biased tires and tuner suspention. You are definetly going to make some sacrifices in drivability on the street as with any killer performance car would. But a pure track car I can definetly see a tractable 850RWHP+ Today. Maybe not 3-5 yrs ago. :blah:
 

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silvino said:
Of all the people you mentioned maybe half of them actually road raced seriously. Of those, only two of them that I know of actually posted good results and they didn't do it with 850+hp. I think you're confused.

I had this idea back when I first started dealing with my new motor but my buddy Sushi mentioned that it would be a PITA until someone decided ot drop the dough and truly replicate the block properly.

Cutting weight and putting it in the proper places as well as optimizing the suspension like some have began doing are the keys. The Supra makes way more HP than it needs. this is why the fastest guy on this board that I know of uses a SMALL turbo which spools quick and has more of a linear power curve.
Agreed Silvino 850 is very hard to drive on the track. I have seen a couple of 700-800 hp supras pro driven with mediocre results and have seen lower hp quicker spooling models run realy fast times.
 

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Is there enough room in the casting for sleeves and stock-size pistons? Aren't the tolerances pretty tight as-is?
 

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silvino said:
Of all the people you mentioned maybe half of them actually road raced seriously. Of those, only two of them that I know of actually posted good results and they didn't do it with 850+hp. I think you're confused.
Exactly. The key to a fast Supra is investing the $$$ in the driver, not the car.

JMO.
 

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I find it amusing that the big name people and companies who get lots of magazine or website coverage come off as the fastest and all knowing when it comes to road racing when it's seems totally untrue. About the only magazine coverage of the faster drivers/setups is when they cover OTC or One Lap. Even then, it turns out there's faster cars/drivers that just can't make those events for whatever reason.

Terry, when are you going to represent in one of these events? :) IIRC, you haven't, yet.
 

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I was considering this years OTC but probably won't make it due to time constraints, bottom line is I just love to drive road course and could'nt care less about media coverage. I will be out april 23-24 with porsche owners club at the streets if you are interested.
 

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silvino said:
Of all the people you mentioned maybe half of them actually road raced seriously. Of those, only two of them that I know of actually posted good results and they didn't do it with 850+hp. I think you're confused.

I had this idea back when I first started dealing with my new motor but my buddy Sushi mentioned that it would be a PITA until someone decided ot drop the dough and truly replicate the block properly.

Cutting weight and putting it in the proper places as well as optimizing the suspension like some have began doing are the keys. The Supra makes way more HP than it needs. this is why the fastest guy on this board that I know of uses a SMALL turbo which spools quick and has more of a linear power curve.
I know. but read- I never said they had 850+ I said 650RWHP to ~700RWHP.
Linear power curves are ideal yes, but that is half of the story. As far as the car goes(discounting driver right now) the car's SETUP would have to be more important than the power curve.

I know this is drag but I am using the example. Dana Westover with VW made 570-590RWHP when he started racing the Supra seriously and he was running 9.9-10.1 quarters. I have seen supras have 1400RWHP that can't do that. Setup is the key to any car's potential for power. Ask any professional supention guy. If dana's setup was that good then with 600RWHP what is he going to do at 1200 with the proper setup? Last year he made 770RWHP and ran a [email protected] Name ONE CAR WITH NO NO2 THAT MADE TWICE THAT MUCH POWER THAT RAN THAT TIME! I can count them on one hand with 5 spare fingers left.

You are not reading what I am saying. If you SET -UP the car from the get go to be tractable at 850RWHP chances are you can do it.
 

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No -- he is reading what you say. Good luck driving an 600+rwhp Supra on a road course and making decent times. The power is going to be hard as hell to modulate.

You will be in vacuum most of the time or left foot braking your ass off.
 

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No, we understand you quite well. We're telling you that to take advantage of that big power that it'd take a lot more than you think. None of the people you listed have proven that you can use tons of power like you originally stated (you're changing what you said after the fact). After a certain power level you just CANNOT apply the massive amount of power to the ground even with large tires under the car. You end up needing highly optimized suspension and Aero to do this. This is something I've read Terry is working on and maybe someday soon he'll be able to say he needs more power but right now this isn't the case.

This isn't even getting into the fact that larger turbos become less responsive and even then when they do spool up, the abrupt power surge unsettles the car making it difficult to drive.

I'm sorry but comparing this to drag racing is a joke. It's not that simple. I say this from personal experience as well as from the feedback of other fast track members from SFs and others who don't post.

You clearly stated that it's a known combination of parts is now available where a few years it wasn't which isn't true. You also stated that those cars listed were at power levels that they are not at on the track.

If it was as easy as you're making it sound, wouldn't more people have this magic setup you are refering to? Obviously anything is possible if we all had wind tunnels to test in or infinite cash to spend every day at the track to tune/build suspension parts, that's a given but that's not the case with 99.9% of us.

In case you forgot what you said...

"I think if you had that as a goal to track it(850+HP) it can be done. There is enough technology and knowledge of setup out there, that isn't a unreasonable goal for a ultimate track car. The right parts, tuning and performance goals could make for a hard to beat combination.

Reg Reimer, Kent Rafferty, Hikari works, SW, Titan, Ken H., Nils L., Andi B, ect. ect... had 650RWHP-700RWHP ~800HP crank it did pretty well with street biased tires and tuner suspention. You are definetly going to make some sacrifices in drivability on the street as with any killer performance car would. But a pure track car I can definetly see a tractable 850RWHP+ Today. Maybe not 3-5 yrs ago."


SUPRAT said:
I know. but read- I never said they had 850+ I said 650RWHP to ~700RWHP.
Linear power curves are ideal yes, but that is half of the story. As far as the car goes(discounting driver right now) the car's SETUP would have to be more important than the power curve.

I know this is drag but I am using the example. Dana Westover with VW made 570-590RWHP when he started racing the Supra seriously and he was running 9.9-10.1 quarters. I have seen supras have 1400RWHP that can't do that. Setup is the key to any car's potential for power. Ask any professional supention guy. If dana's setup was that good then with 600RWHP what is he going to do at 1200 with the proper setup? O.W.N.

You are not reading what I am saying. If you SET -UP the car from the get go to be tractable at 850RWHP chances are you can do it.
 

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Also, don't think everyone who makes power runs around on real street tires and is still able to use it. At high boost my car will break loose in 4th at times on high boost. Ask Ryan Woon how fast his car is with 18's or 19's and Pilot Spots or the like on, I bet it's not too fast. Even Dana with his auto won't get very far without his DRs.

You're kidding yourself if you think a street tire car using high hp will go anywhere on any track.
 

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silvino said:
No, we understand you quite well. We're telling you that to take advantage of that big power that it'd take a lot more than you think. None of the people you listed have proven that you can use tons of power like you originally stated (you're changing what you said after the fact). After a certain power level you just CANNOT apply the massive amount of power to the ground even with large tires under the car. You end up needing highly optimized suspension and Aero to do this. This is something I've read Terry is working on and maybe someday soon he'll be able to say he needs more power but right now this isn't the case.

This isn't even getting into the fact that larger turbos become less responsive and even then when they do spool up, the abrupt power surge unsettles the car making it difficult to drive.

I'm sorry but comparing this to drag racing is a joke. It's not that simple. I say this from personal experience as well as from the feedback of other fast track members from SFs and others who don't post.

You clearly stated that it's a known combination of parts is now available where a few years it wasn't which isn't true. You also stated that those cars listed were at power levels that they are not at on the track.

If it was as easy as you're making it sound, wouldn't more people have this magic setup you are refering to? Obviously anything is possible if we all had wind tunnels to test in or infinite cash to spend every day at the track to tune/build suspension parts, that's a given but that's not the case with 99.9% of us.

In case you forgot what you said...

"I think if you had that as a goal to track it(850+HP) it can be done. There is enough technology and knowledge of setup out there, that isn't a unreasonable goal for a ultimate track car. The right parts, tuning and performance goals could make for a hard to beat combination.

Reg Reimer, Kent Rafferty, Hikari works, SW, Titan, Ken H., Nils L., Andi B, ect. ect... had 650RWHP-700RWHP ~800HP crank it did pretty well with street biased tires and tuner suspention. You are definetly going to make some sacrifices in drivability on the street as with any killer performance car would. But a pure track car I can definetly see a tractable 850RWHP+ Today. Maybe not 3-5 yrs ago."
I agree for the most part. First, I can't go back what I said it is right there in black and white. The guys I mentioned had around 650RWHP. I said a full race supra can do 850RWHP. You mixed it up and are implying I am confused that those guys I listed are at 850RWHP. I never changed anything I said from the first post. :stickpoke

You are 100% right- No street biased tired car will go anywhere with 850RWHP in a straight line let alone corners. I had first hand experience with this. 650 is too much for any street tire.

2nd, half of them had reasonable amount of success with their cars. They beat lots of fast cars- didn't wreck. Only two were pro racers- I am not one- or claming to be. Actually you are 100% right- you will need aero, tire- suspention- tuning- driver- blah blah. You even said it.

3rd. Wasnt comparing drag racing to road racing. I merely pointed out that if you have a particular goal in mind that hasn't been done before like dana did, the human brain will usually achieve whatever it put's it's mind to. People are smart. I was providing one example. That is the only point I was making. :bigthumb:

Dana didn't just end up at 8.8 by accident. No supra runs that kind of time with a street biased setup and NO ONE does it without NO2. That goal- (before he accomplised it) was unreasonable/unrealistic by current drag standards at the time (even today) but he was smart enough not to listen to everyone and built his car to his goal. He is now the fastest Street Supra no NO2.

Right now, 850RWHP track car is unreasonable/unrealistic. I agree with that. IT isn';t impossible nor improbable. Just someone will have to adopt this goal as their baby and see to it until it is done. If it was easy it wouldn't be worthwhile. I enjoy the challenge. Call me an optimist, but all great things require great unyeilding effort.
 

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Suprat I know it seems counterintuitive but after countless hours at the track and time spent in other supras with more hp and wheel to wheel sessions with higher hp supras my info says right about 420 rwhp with very fast spool consistantly produces the fastest times. My car has been rigorously tested by two highly experianced professional drivers and they had the same experiance, best lap times occurred at 420rwhp. We all tried the car with more boost and actually ran slower times due to the difficulty modulating the power. Lets face it the supra isn't an ideal race car it weighs 3000+ it's sheetmetal contruction,sits a little high and is front heavy. That said I still love the car at the track and will continue the evolution process to find an ever faster configuration of components and setup.
 

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Terry would know better than I about all of this but I'm sure SupraT will enlighten us at the next Vegas meet with a faster car I'm sure.

bart97 said:
Suprat I know it seems counterintuitive but after countless hours at the track and time spent in other supras with more hp and wheel to wheel sessions with higher hp supras my info says right about 420 rwhp with very fast spool consistantly produces the fastest times. My car has been rigorously tested by two highly experianced professional drivers and they had the same experiance, best lap times occurred at 420rwhp. We all tried the car with more boost and actually ran slower times due to the difficulty modulating the power. Lets face it the supra isn't an ideal race car it weighs 3000+ it's sheetmetal contruction,sits a little high and is front heavy. That said I still love the car at the track and will continue the evolution process to find an ever faster configuration of components and setup.
 
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