Supra Forums banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Sup guys. Heres the story my I bought a used Tilton carbon triple clutch from a reputable guy in the community. When I bought this clutch I also bought the Tilton master cylinder from TwinsTurbo. I had to replace the first pressure plate as soon as I installed it since it was slightly worn from previous owner, no big deal. Now I just recently wore out the second pressure plate that I just put in down Hot Rod weekend in Ocean City MD. I didn't do any racing that weekend. Everyday the pedal engagement point kept changing. I had maybe 500-1000 miles on that pressure plate. I always had to adjust the pedal/pedal stop and I bled it many times. I haven't dropped the trans yet since I'm so tired of doing it from my past clutch issue but I'm doing it very soon. I'm thinking it wore out so now the bearing unit is sitting on the fingers of the pressure plate cover making it slip before boost. I probably just need to change to the next thicker pressure plate but I don't want this to keep happening.

This clutch is suppose to be the first and last clutch in any supra as the big dogs use to say. What do you guys think this problem is? What causes the engagement point to keep moving? I'm thinking I didn't bleed it correctly or faulty Tilton master. I kinda doubt that but Iv heard this happening to someone. How do you guys bleed it? I bled my clutch by having someone pump the pedal couple times, hold it on the floor while I crack the bleeder loose and repeat. Is that incorrect for this clutch? I know Tilton calls for another way. Would it make that much of a difference?
 

·
Hardtopper
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
Sorry to hear about your troubles, Joe.. The engagement point changing is definitely going to be hydraulic. Either there's air in the system or possibly an issue with the master cylinder.. As for the premature wear, it could be due to the release bearing being pre-loaded and applying constant pressure to the fingers, reducing the clamping power. Possibly more than one issue going on here --- hydraulic and/or adjustement...

For what it's worth, I'm running the stock master cylinder with no pedal stop. It grabs almost immediately off the floor and no issues so far. My understanding is the stock master is too small to over-stroke the pressure plate as long as the pedal travel is adjusted accordingly. If you have a good stock master, it may be worth swapping it out, readjusting the pedal and trying that. I'm really not sure what the benefit of the Tilton master is. I've read that it gives a heavier pedal pressure, which some prefer since it feels like stepping on marshmallow with the stock master. And that it widens the window of pedal travel where it is still slippable. I don't have a lot of miles on mine yet, but so far have no reason to want to change anything about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Sorry to hear about your troubles, Joe.. The engagement point changing is definitely going to be hydraulic. Either there's air in the system or possibly an issue with the master cylinder.. As for the premature wear, it could be due to the release bearing being pre-loaded and applying constant pressure to the fingers, reducing the clamping power. Possibly more than one issue going on here --- hydraulic and/or adjustement...

For what it's worth, I'm running the stock master cylinder with no pedal stop. It grabs almost immediately off the floor and no issues so far. My understanding is the stock master is too small to over-stroke the pressure plate as long as the pedal travel is adjusted accordingly. If you have a good stock master, it may be worth swapping it out, readjusting the pedal and trying that. I'm really not sure what the benefit of the Tilton master is. I've read that it gives a heavier pedal pressure, which some prefer since it feels like stepping on marshmallow with the stock master. And that it widens the window of pedal travel where it is still slippable. I don't have a lot of miles on mine yet, but so far have no reason to want to change anything about it.
Thanks for chiming in. I do have my stock master but my old lines are destroyed. I have a braided line now for my tilton master. Idk if it can be interchanged. I really hate taking the master out so I'm trying to avoid that. I really want to say maybe bleeding this maybe be the issue. But is there any test I can do with my master now to see if it has air in it? I always kept my pedal 1/4 inch from where it engages to the pedal stop. As time went on that measurement got larger.
 

·
Inline for the win
Joined
·
4,727 Posts
How are you bleeding it ?

It takes two people per tilton's procedure and air in the system is problematic if not done right.

Is the bleeder is the brake fitting supplied or in an AN fitting?

Which flywheel do you have, 6 or 12lb?

How are you setting the pedal stop?

Been thru all of this with the same setup including master cylinder you have
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
How are you bleeding it ?

It takes two people per tilton's procedure and air in the system is problematic if not done right.

Is the bleeder is the brake fitting supplied or in an AN fitting?

Which flywheel do you have, 6 or 12lb?

How are you setting the pedal stop?

Been thru all of this with the same setup including master cylinder you have
O so Im not the only one?? Great. Hahah

I have someone pump the pedal couple times and then hold the pedal down. I crack the bleeder valve that was supplied on the bearing unit let the fluid run out then close it. Then pump it couple times again and repeat everything till all the air is out.

I want to say I have 12 lb. I know it's the steel flywheel.

Pedal stop is quater inch away from the point the clutch is disengaged. I put the car in first gear and slowly press down the on the pedal while I follow the pedal with the bolt I used from my pedal stop along with my friend puts pressure on the rear wheel. Once the wheel turns I go quarter inch down on the pedal stop from the point it disengages.
 

·
Inline for the win
Joined
·
4,727 Posts
O so Im not the only one?? Great. Hahah

I have someone pump the pedal couple times and then hold the pedal down. I crack the bleeder valve that was supplied on the bearing unit let the fluid run out then close it. Then pump it couple times again and repeat everything till all the air is out.

- This is not how tilton says to do it. Go to the 2nd link below for the HRB. You need (2) people for one to push the clutch in until the HRB piston touches the diaphragm spring. Then the 2nd person cracks the bleeder followed by telling the 1st person to push the pedal down to the floor w/o the stop. This allows you to bleed the HRB without damaging the diaphragm springs/overstroking the clutch. Repeat this till you get all the air out. The bleeder from the HRB needs to have the suppied brake fitting that you installed the bleeder into. I ran into constant air bubbles when trying to use a -3an line itself. The swivel coupling of the -3AN line would allow air to get back in. I suggest bleed the master and bleed the HRB per the instructions above. I tried many methods (Gravity, same as you did, Motive bleeder, etc) with little to no success till I used Tilton's method.

CLUTCH: http://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/98-1300-7.25-5.5-Carbon-Carbon-Clutches.pdf

HRB: http://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/uploads/98-1110-6000-Series-HRB-V2.pdf



I want to say I have 12 lb. I know it's the steel flywheel.

- If it doesn't have holes in around the perimeter then its the 12lb (12lb -50-5021, 6lb 50-5020). I have both and just stepped up to the 12lb unit.

Pedal stop is quarter inch away from the point the clutch is disengaged. I put the car in first gear and slowly press down the on the pedal while I follow the pedal with the bolt I used from my pedal stop along with my friend puts pressure on the rear wheel. Once the wheel turns I go quarter inch down on the pedal stop from the point it disengages.

- For the pedal stop, I place the rear on jack stands, Start the engine and and set it based on wheel engagement with 1st gear engaging. ONce the when stops I add the 1/4-3/8" additional clearance that is needed.
See above.
 

·
I wanna go fast!
Joined
·
865 Posts
For what it's worth, whenever bleeding brakes or clutches I always recommend at least attaching some clear tubing to the bleeder with a loop up above the bleeder valve to catch any air. This will do a couple thinges to help. 1. At the end of travel if fluid continues to run out there is no chance of air displacing any fluid. And 2. If your helper isn't 100% steady with their foot instead of sucking air, the bleeder will suck fluid from the clear tube.

This also has the added benefit of showing you when there is no more air.

I generally use clear tubing into a catch can with a dip tube. They come in the 1 man brake bleeder kits and in many vacuum pump kits.
 

·
Toyota Master Tech
Joined
·
1,449 Posts
Working @ toyota i did it with the BG brake bleeder machine. A sealed lid attaches to the master the machine is filled with fluid pressure is added to thd system and you rea able to control it i set around 6psi for a clutch master. Now you just open the bleeder and the fluid and air comes out but it fills @ the same time. It will flush out the system with clean fluid also. Call around Many Shops have the BG machine for brakes

lift up the vehicle and have someone push on and off the clutch pedal simultaneously you should watch the clutch slave cylinder travel, when the other person starts to feel that the pedal pressure is changing be sure to watch the sleeve and see if the distance of travel is also changing. It should not, if it is you have a hydraulic issue the most likely losing fluid past either your clutch master cylinder or clutch slave cylinder now carefully lift the dust boot that covers over the clutch master or slave there should be no fluid inside the boot if you have fluid in the boot then that part is bad you may know this already. On a mkiv Supra you may not be able to lift the boot on the clutch master so don't try instead look at it see if it looks wet feel around it with your fingers and lift the carpet and check the underside for any dampness.

I chose the OS giken clutch with their movement alteration kit it is impossible to over stroke it as it has a built-in stop and it uses Factory Toyota hydraulics I clocked over 50,000 miles of abuse before it was time to rebuild the clutch the first time, also took five years. Rebuilds are easily performed by the user no sending your clutch out and wondering what type of BS you'll be told about what's wrong with it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
See above.
Thank you for that input. This is probably why so many people say they don't last long on the street. I don't remember seeing the holes in the flywheel so I think I do have the 12lb. I do have the supplied bleeder line from tilton for sure. I gotta give the tilton method a try. I'm an idiot for not doing it. I hope I get it right cause I'll be on the 3rd pressure plate.

For what it's worth, whenever bleeding brakes or clutches I always recommend at least attaching some clear tubing to the bleeder with a loop up above the bleeder valve to catch any air. This will do a couple thinges to help. 1. At the end of travel if fluid continues to run out there is no chance of air displacing any fluid. And 2. If your helper isn't 100% steady with their foot instead of sucking air, the bleeder will suck fluid from the clear tube.

This also has the added benefit of showing you when there is no more air.

I generally use clear tubing into a catch can with a dip tube. They come in the 1 man brake bleeder kits and in many vacuum pump kits.
I used a brake fluid catch can I picked up from sears and I think there's my problem cause there was always some bubbles come from the bottle itself. I didnt think it was air from the system. I gotta get a long clear tube now cause the line always pointed down.

Working @ toyota i did it with the BG brake bleeder machine. A sealed lid attaches to the master the machine is filled with fluid pressure is added to thd system and you rea able to control it i set around 6psi for a clutch master. Now you just open the bleeder and the fluid and air comes out but it fills @ the same time. It will flush out the system with clean fluid also. Call around Many Shops have the BG machine for brakes

lift up the vehicle and have someone push on and off the clutch pedal simultaneously you should watch the clutch slave cylinder travel, when the other person starts to feel that the pedal pressure is changing be sure to watch the sleeve and see if the distance of travel is also changing. It should not, if it is you have a hydraulic issue the most likely losing fluid past either your clutch master cylinder or clutch slave cylinder now carefully lift the dust boot that covers over the clutch master or slave there should be no fluid inside the boot if you have fluid in the boot then that part is bad you may know this already. On a mkiv Supra you may not be able to lift the boot on the clutch master so don't try instead look at it see if it looks wet feel around it with your fingers and lift the carpet and check the underside for any dampness.

I chose the OS giken clutch with their movement alteration kit it is impossible to over stroke it as it has a built-in stop and it uses Factory Toyota hydraulics I clocked over 50,000 miles of abuse before it was time to rebuild the clutch the first time, also took five years. Rebuilds are easily performed by the user no sending your clutch out and wondering what type of BS you'll be told about what's wrong with it
That's bleeder system sounds awesome but it might not work according to suprafied. I don't think I'm leaking anyting but I'll check once I get under there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Joe, did you ever get this sorted out?
I wouldn't call it sorted out. From the original post I had 1 or 2 thicker pressure plates put in it from all the wear it's seen in the matter of a year. When we bled it we noticed the bleeder line allows air in through the tiny hole in the fitting. So we got it bled right but it just kept wearing as I drove it on the street more. It lasted at the track last season but I took it out once couple weeks ago when it was nice and notice by the end of the night the engagement point was getting higher so it's just wearing out.
 

·
Hardtopper
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
How many miles total do you have since the last plate? I think I've got like 800 miles total on mine -- all pretty much on kill-mode and 9 or 10 1/2 mile passes -- and have noticed the engagement is a bit higher than it used to be. Can the stack height be measured installed, or does it need to come out? I bought mine used with supposedly only like 50 (probably hard) miles on it, so it's still on the 1st plate. I'm wondering if I need to add a plate before the 1/2 mile in a few months.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
How many miles total do you have since the last plate? I think I've got like 800 miles total on mine -- all pretty much on kill-mode and 9 or 10 1/2 mile passes -- and have noticed the engagement is a bit higher than it used to be. Can the stack height be measured installed, or does it need to come out? I bought mine used with supposedly only like 50 (probably hard) miles on it, so it's still on the 1st plate. I'm wondering if I need to add a plate before the 1/2 mile in a few months.
I wish I could tell you how many miles but I will tell you it isn't much. Tilton told me when I called them about this concern he said "Don't drive them on the street. Go straight to the highway if you can. The carbon material doesn't like the cold slip from street light to street light." "The more they wear the faster they wear." I bought mine the same condition as you but had to swap to the next pressure plate before I got to drive it. So it makes sense why mine has its 3rd pressure plate in it already within 2 seasons .It's due for its next one soon but idk if I am keeping it now cause I can't stand the maintenance part of it. Does the job amazing at the track but I have a streetcar. I need reliability.

Stack height can't measured while it's in. Sadly you gotta take everything out. One way to tell if it's wearing is crack open the bleed line and let everything drain out. See if the clearance is where it's suppose to be between the bearing and the fingers of the clutch. Obviously if the fingers are not straight and pointed outward toward the bearing it will slip soon. I would put the next shim for safety anyway. From what your saying I guarantee you need a new thicker pressure plate already.
 

·
Hardtopper
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
Thanks for the insight -- much appreciated!
 

·
Inline for the win
Joined
·
4,727 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Like wise... I will look at mine before taking it out this year.

DP
Yea man I would. What's the history of yours? How many pressure plates have you put in? Do you have the old style that supplied the 3 pressure plates? Or new style?
 

·
Inline for the win
Joined
·
4,727 Posts
Yea man I would. What's the history of yours? How many pressure plates have you put in? Do you have the old style that supplied the 3 pressure plates? Or new style?
New style. My unit has been serviced twice since purchased used (fixed from bad seller and upgraded to new pressure rings). Long story and you can look it up in the past threads on Supra forums.
 

·
Boost Junkie
Joined
·
12,616 Posts
So much for the Tilton being the "ultimate street clutch".

Steve K.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
New style. My unit has been serviced twice since purchased used (fixed from bad seller and upgraded to new pressure rings). Long story and you can look it up in the past threads on Supra forums.
Serviced with new pressure plates or actual rebuilds?
What kinda mileage you see?

So much for the Tilton being the "ultimate street clutch".

Steve K.
People like to forget to mention that after Tilton figured out the lightweight flywheel was wearing clutches faster and switched to the heavy duty flywheel that most have now, the carbon source they had sold their stock to another company and they had to find a different source. Ever since then they haven't been the same.
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top