[mdcmotorsports]

Guys.
I am looking into building a custom intercooler.
GUINEA PIG AGAIN!
I am having a hard time finding the following aluminum tubing:

.5" x 3" x .065" (or thinner) wall

If any body has any leads on this kind of odd tubing, let me know.

 

[shiva]

is the .5" or the 3" the diameter? are you making your own core??
either way try onlinemetals.com

 

[mdcmotorsports]

.5" tall x 3" wide. Rectangle tubing.

 

[amorak]

You know how some things just aren't worth the hassle...?

This is one of them.

I'm not knocking your enterprising spirit, it's just...building your own intercooler? Do you know how much engineering goes into the design of one?

Sorry, but save %30 isn't worth a 10% efficent IC :sad:

 

[outofstep]

I know how to build a liquid/air intercooler. It's actualy not that hard and they are very effecient. We're talking better than air/air intercooler effecient.

I've wouldn't even try building a air/air one though.

 

[mdcmotorsports]

Amorak....
I undertand your concern....
But hey.
Its like trying to tell a kid the stove is hot.
I know there is a lot of engineering in IC's... but I have studied them greatly and I am ready to take a step in R&D.
I think I could pull it off.
Don't worry, no Home Depot for me.
Full bore machining and welding.
I am qualified to be a fabricator for indy cars, why not sups?

 

[Enraged]

even though you may be a fabrictor, why not just pick up a core (www.roadraceengineering.com sells Griffin cores that are the perfect size for US$340) and then make your own end tanks?

 

[mdcmotorsports]

Enraged... not a bad idea. But my project with all the aluminum and every thing was only gonna be about $150 finished.... plus alot of my time but hey.

 

[Enraged]

for an air to air IC, its not worth the time....

 

[jong]

an air to air intercooler would be a PITA to build. and amorak is right, there is a bunch of engineering and design specifications to follow if you want it to make a dent in the intake temp. an Air-liquid intercooler would be much easier to build and may get you the efficiency results you crave. The only problem, is the temperature reduction may not be as much as an air-to-air. An air to air has been documented to reduce a 120 deg C charge to 60 deg. where as, in the same environment, the air-liquid only brought it down to 85 deg C. (results from Dr. Heinz heisler) However. It would be interesting and a new design. I've seen such air-liquid intercoolers that were accessable from inside the passenger compartment and had a nice area to plop an ice bag in. One design that i think would work would compose of none less than a bunch of copper tubing wrapped around the aluminum base. The problem most commonly found with this is how to reduce the liquid temperature when it starts to get hot. Most manufacturers that use the air-liquid technique just plumb engine coolant. Which is part of the reason for the inefficiency (again taken from dr. heinz heisler) If you were to find a way to use a seperant pump and cooling system, then find a way to keep it constantly at a low temp (ex. incorporating the a/c) then i think it would definately be a novelty thats well worth undertaking. just a thought


(test results taken from "Vehicle and Engine technology 2nd Edition" by Heinz Heilser, copyright 1999, pp. 621-2) (just so you know i'm NOT pulling this outta my ass)

 

[outofstep]

The only problem, is the temperature reduction may not be as much as an air-to-air. An air to air has been documented to reduce a 120 deg C charge to 60 deg. where as, in the same environment, the air-liquid only brought it down to 85 deg C. (results from Dr. Heinz heisler)

I would really like to see the controls for that test, because something is obviously fubard. Air/air can never cool below ambient unless C02/N20 is used on the core. So unless they were testing in 60 degree weather and had a 100% efficient core those results are wrong.

Most manufacturers that use the air-liquid technique just plumb engine coolant. Which is part of the reason for the inefficiency (again taken from dr. heinz heisler)

So there is the culprit. It looks as though the above test for the liquid/air IC used a system plumbed into the vehicles own coolant. For lack of better words, that's plain moronic. Gives a very skewed view of the abilities of both of these systems. Kinda like comparing a civic to a viper, but only letting the viper use two spark plugs.

Water has a thermal capacity 4 times greater than air. You would need an air/air intercooler to have 4 times the heat exchange surface area to match a liquid/air unit. Most halfway decent systems use their own coolant reservoir, heat exchanger, and pump. Even with this very basic setup a liquid/air setup cools better than any air/air could ever dream of doing. To compound the advantage even more you can run various mixes (anti freeze, methanol, etc) and catalysts (dish soap, dish detergent) to run super chilled liquid with better thermal transfer properties. It can be as simple as packing the liquid reservoir with ice or injecting liquid C02 into the res. As long as you've got the right mix in there you'll be running subzero coolant numbers.


Anyways, that test seems to be kinda way skewed. For decent overview of liquid/air check out this link: http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_0090/article.html?popularArticle

FYI - You get faster spool and more throttle responce with a liquid to air because there is way less piping involved.

 

[jong]

ya, i kinda thought so too. The book i took it from "Vehicle and Engine technology 2nd Edition" talked breifly on turbocharging and intercooling compared to the rest of the book. I'll dig around and see what i can find on the tests as far as controls. would you like me to PM them to you, or post them in here? The book mostly discusses engine design and theories. so i thought i would throw that little tid bit in there from the book.

As far as being moronic for them to use engine coolant.. heh, well lets take a look at all the moronic things car manufacturers do to their engines... (pcv, emissions regulations, restrictive intake, restrictive exahust, poor manifold designs) lets face it, if car manufacturers were efficient in everything they did, we would be out of a hobby. I think that sometimes car manufacturers are more concerned about economic and emission requirements moreover efficiency. just a thought

I do beleive however, and maybe i didn't stress this, that liquid-air IC's do hold much greater effiency than do Air-air. and i furthermore agree with you that a means to cool the liquid (through chemical, thermal, radiant, or convectional methods) is necessary for a good L-A IC.

 

[outofstep]

You can post them here if you could.

Heh yeah. If it wasn't for manufacturers doing dumb stuff, we'de be outa a hobby. Only 6.5 psi stock? haha, I think I can fix that.

FYI, I'm am building a liquid/air intercooler that uses C02 injection. We're talking crazy ass cold intake temperature. My goal is to get intake temps of -30 degree F on a consistent basis.

 

[jong]

FYI, I'm am building a liquid/air intercooler that uses C02 injection. We're talking crazy ass cold intake temperature. My goal is to get intake temps of -30 degree F on a consistent basis.

:drooling: i would love to see any sketchs or designs you have! i'm considering doing this for my na-t .

 

[outofstep]

Gimme acouple mins to throw down on my mspaint skillz. It's actualy very easy to get all the parts you need for this project. You just have to spend abit of time on it.

 

[outofstep]

You want the water to flow in the opposite direction of the air because it makes for better thermal transfere. I've seen tank designs where the liquid inlet / outlet are right next to each other. This is a big no no.

I'll be injecting liquid C02 into the resivour tank, the tank will be vented to make sure the C02 can easily convert to a gas. I'll also make it nice and easy for if I just want to dump abunch of ice in there. Screen at the end of the tank to make sure nothing gets into the pump.

 

[Enraged]

would this be a sealed system? similar to those links you posted the other day? if that works, you'll have no lag.. just think, even with an upgraded turbo, rotate the housing to point directly at the TB, insert you cooler there, and connect... less than 2 feet of intake piping

 

[BrysonK]

I just bought a Griffen core from RRE and got some aluminum end tanks and mounting tabs made up. WAY cheaper than buying a built unit off the shelf.

 

[BrysonK]

 

[amorak]

Brysta: have you had that think pressure tested to ensure the welds are good?