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Moderator, l337 M0d3r4t0r
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So I figured I'd start a thread on this since it pops up from time to time and I thought I'd share my thoughts on this.

Part1
E30-40 Theory

Part 2
Testing

Part 3
Full E85

Part 1

While I don't suggest that you run FULL e85 on a stock setup, however, running around e30-e40 on a stock car is defiantly doable. I have a completely stock fuel system below is what I've done for the last 2 years.

For the last 2 years, I've been adding 5 gallons of E85 then filling the rest of the tank with 91. I always fill when near empty to ensure a similar mix. It's important to be generally around the same E-content unless you always want to watch your AFR's. You should immediately notice quite a bit more torque if running stock boost or even a few pounds more. Even if the pump outputs less than E85, it's no concern since you'll just be rich. However, still leaner than just 91.

Theory since ethanol requires approx 30% more fuel to keep stoichiometric by adding 30-40% E85 you effectively reduce fueling by about 10-15% at the same boost level while increasing octane.

This is a great double-edged sword. By going leaner, you'll get more power and response. Stock computer is extremely aggressive on timing and 91 cannot keep up to these requirements and often times will pull timing. Adding E30-40 will enable running full timing without knocking.

I've tested up to 12 PSI (stock boost cut on a 57 trim CT26) without any fuel computers or piggyback, and kept a good AFR.
Once you pass this you'll have to be very careful. Since you effectively made your stock injectors about 10-20% smaller since you require more fuel to have the same ratios.

Running 14-17 PSI or around 350 WHP estimated* seems to be the absolute limit of this, as I run out of injector on my stock fuel system and start getting really lean.


Part 2

I have 3 dynos over the 3 years

252WHP and 274TQ in 2017 @ SIV 91 octane
Stock car and boost, except for downpipe and catback, (Stock cat)

274WHP and 300 tq in 2018 @ SIV E30 mix
Stock car and boost, except for downpipe and catback, (stock cat)

300WHP and 357 TQ in 2019 @ SIV (after main dyno session)
57 trim CT26 Stock boost and 3" cat carb legal
E30 mix
(no video did the run after-hours SIV)
I figure I gained 15 from the new cat and 15 from the 57 trim.

Part 3

To run full E85, it's recommended that changes to the factory fuel system are made.
#1 First you'll want to change all the rubber items on the system to E85 rated hoses.
On the stock fuel system that would be 2 lines. The feed from the firewall to the rail should be replaced, and the return lines that connect to and from the Jpipe down on the block. I sued PTFE because the rubber E85 compact lines usually go brittle and break in a few years. PTFE will outlast the car. There is an adapter that DM sells to connect to the firewall line and then just run a PTFE -6 line to the hardline.

#2 Changing the pump
You'll want to change the pump form stock to something like a Walbro 450 which is ethanol rated, also using a corrugated plastic feed hose instead of the gates rubber E85 rated line is recommended as the rubber hoses seem to break down when submerged (Gates barricade). However, the stock pump will work just seems to be out of flow @ 325-350 WHP as with 850CC injectors I was still going lean at 15 psi on stock pump.

#3 Changing your stock fuel filter, is a good idea since it's probably old and needs doing, but not required. This is the one I used for my walbro 450 pump
I used the Denso 952-0006


#4 Injectors and O rings. I recommend changing the o-rings but i think they are nitrile already which means they should work anyways. Generally, all the old school top feed metal injectors seem to be ok with E85 so I don't think there is any concern here.

#5 Fuel rail, from my talks with others I think it's already anodized so it SHOULD be ok. I ended up just re-using mine without coating I'll see how it holds up.

One of the most comprehensive threads is found here.
 

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interesting stuff. Have you ran the car in the 1/4 ? curious what your trap speeds would be as a comparison to my car

I too run a ct26, but with a mamba billet 11 blade 56 trim compressor. stock exhaust side. im running 440's injectors, but high fuel pressure, and a maft-pro piggy back. so Im running just under fuel cut on a similar turbo, but that fuel cut is more like 15-16 psi on my car.

I had thought of converting the car to e85 and leaning on the maft-pro ability to do afr tracking at WOT to keep it in tune as e85 slides all over from 60-85% (or so I read). also the stock tccs ecu would be able to slightly trim the fuel too, provided things are balanced (650cc injectors for example). in theory --and reading your results -- maybe this is possible.

I think the problem with e85 is going to be saturating the ct26 stock exhaust turbine -- aka the turbo is going to choke out sooner than high octane gas because there is physically more fuel coming in and going out. I feel like im right at the limit of choking the exhaust turbine because I can't keep boost down above 5k rpm, it creeps up so my low boost (spring only) holds maybe 8 psi until it runs away up to 12-14 at redline. again, just under fuel cut.
 

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Moderator, l337 M0d3r4t0r
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Discussion Starter #3
1/4 mile times are not great because it's launch dependant 60-130 mph times are better, but there isn't enough power to do 60-130 without going across the state lol...

Unfortunately, I don't have any 1/4 mile times, but I'm going to start logging with a GPS speed tracker Draggy. going to set up a custom 20-65 MPH or 40-100 mph so I can do one gear pull timed.

The problem with the exhaust side is the backpressure is higher than the WG spring. I actually bought the mamba adjust WG with the changeable spring. This takes care of the higher boost issues, and boost drop off. I ordered the turbo smart dual port wastegate and the next goal will be a 4 port actuator so that I can make whatever boost I want.
 

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1/4 mile times are not great because it's launch dependant 60-130 mph times are better, but there isn't enough power to do 60-130 without going across the state lol...

Unfortunately, I don't have any 1/4 mile times, but I'm going to start logging with a GPS speed tracker Draggy. going to set up a custom 20-65 MPH or 40-100 mph so I can do one gear pull timed.

The problem with the exhaust side is the backpressure is higher than the WG spring. I actually bought the mamba adjust WG with the changeable spring. This takes care of the higher boost issues, and boost drop off. I ordered the turbo smart dual port wastegate and the next goal will be a 4 port actuator so that I can make whatever boost I want.
Hey man, wanted your feedback on ECU Masters Black with stock ecu controlling the auto tranny (2JZGTE). Could you send me PM?
Currently don't have the privilege due to the new user thing.
 

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trap speed is a pretty solid indicator of HP. ET....not so much, because like you say the 60' time has a lot to do with ET. but even with a bad launch, you have 1,300 more feet to put power down.


there are cars that run solid 12's with my 110 mph trap speed. my tires are old and my 60 foot is over 2 seconds.

I would wager MPH over a distance (1/4 mile) is a much better indicator than a roll on time run. trap speed is measure at the track by radar and the distance is absolute. these are two things that vary on a gps 60-130 pull

how much pressure is OK on the exhaust side ? I was under the impression that 6-7 psi of pressure (pushing wg spring open) is so much its a large (hp robbing) restriction
 

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Since you mention stock block e85. My current setup is super simple running on a rebuilt oem block, Hks headgasket, apr headstuds, tuned on a piggyback consists of maf-translator , apexi safc 2, aem fpr, aem wideband , aem boost gauge, Walbro 450 fuel pump, fic 850cc injectors and lastly Borg Warner 366 on e85 at 28psi , haven't dyno currently it’s at the paint shop hopefully soon.
 

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Moderator, l337 M0d3r4t0r
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Discussion Starter #7
trap speed is a pretty solid indicator of HP. ET....not so much, because like you say the 60' time has a lot to do with ET. but even with a bad launch, you have 1,300 more feet to put power down.


there are cars that run solid 12's with my 110 mph trap speed. my tires are old and my 60 foot is over 2 seconds.

I would wager MPH over a distance (1/4 mile) is a much better indicator than a roll on time run. trap speed is measure at the track by radar and the distance is absolute. these are two things that vary on a gps 60-130 pull

how much pressure is OK on the exhaust side ? I was under the impression that 6-7 psi of pressure (pushing wg spring open) is so much its a large (hp robbing) restriction
Don't agree at all, I've seen MPH vary like crazy. I'm not using phone GPS. We are talking about a 20HZ GPS that samples extremely fast. You start in 3rd gear or 4th at like 40-50 MPH and step on it and stay in gear, till whatever speed you set and the app marks and records it all. It's like a VBOX if you know what that is. It's ULTRA accurate. By removing gears, and launch it makes it much more valid to compare apples to apples. Aside from weather temp, which is also recorded on the run with something like Pgear or Draggy.

Since you mention stock block e85. My current setup is super simple running on a rebuilt oem block, Hks headgasket, apr headstuds, tuned on a piggyback consists of maf-translator , apexi safc 2, aem fpr, aem wideband , aem boost gauge, Walbro 450 fuel pump, fic 850cc injectors and lastly Borg Warner 366 on e85 at 28psi , haven't dyno currently it’s at the paint shop hopefully soon.
Why run a maft and a Safc2? Don't they essentially do the same thing except for the maft also removes the AFM. Regardless, it works I'm sure and I bet you're making some crazy power because you are probably running ass loads of timing from the stock computer but the stock computer is great at saving the engine and really well tuned for knock vs standalone I feel always lack here as I said before.

Just installed my 850's last night, man I gotta say the tuner studio is pretty fucking great.... I just changed my injectors to 850CC in the software and bam everything was spot on immediately.

You should go dyno I'm curious what you are making power-wise, If I would estimate I'd say 525-575 who maybe more?
 

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Good question !! , Yes I have both, I’ll keep I short and simple The maf-translator does eliminate afm Also disable fuel cut and more but the apexi safc2 has more tuning future over the maf-translator. Over all car has been running strong 💪 on the Same setup for 2yrs now On e85 At 28psi lol ( send it ). But hopefully soon I’ll could go stand-alone like you as welled from perfect-tuning . Thanks 😊
 

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maf translator < maf translator gen2 < maf translator pro



translator pro has the expanded features. you can tune by ve table if you want, use software on a pc to data log. input your wideband o2 for WOT afr adjustment, run boost control. many more features but a rare/older piggy back

man your setup mk3tt makes me want to convert to e85
 

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maf translator < maf translator gen2 < maf translator pro



translator pro has the expanded features. you can tune by ve table if you want, use software on a pc to data log. input your wideband o2 for WOT afr adjustment, run boost control. many more features but a rare/older piggy back

man your setup mk3tt makes me want to convert to e85
Totally understand about the maft-pro, only if the maft pro was still available ! When I looking around but came across the maf-translator at a great price couldn’t pass up ! Beside that you should give e85 a try can’t go wrong with e85. I’m also still on the oem fuel rubber as welled but I’m always keeping a eye on everything. I’ll replace the whole fuel system when the time comes around but I’ll just used what I could as of now till I have the space to redo the whole fuel system .
 

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back to this draggy time run. what RPM range are you timing from or intending to ?

up above you say 60-130 and 40-100 mph, but you also mention one gear and no shift (which totally makes sense)

this is not one gear in my 5 speed (w58/4.3). 4th is topping out 6200 rpm around 115. so a pull from 3100 - 6200 rpm would be 57.5-115 mph.

what value is timing any run if you are not in the power band? I could care less how my car pulls below 4k rpm. Im not trying to come off argumentative or doubtful.... Im interested but not seeing the picture of how this would work.

also how does one account for different road conditions (aka not totally flat). would you run back to back different directions like a salt flat run ;) if the road is a big cup / bowl how does that factor in

possibly I can clarify my position on trap speed. say you run your car 5 times in a day, Im talking 0 changes. you take your best trap, weigh the car and use an online calculator. Id wager a 6 pack of beer I could come up with a more accurate hp estimate VS some draggy time/mph range/weight calculator. as always I open to be proven wrong. but maybe we are talking apples and oranges. if we are comparing our cars and who is faster these draggy times would be solid data (provided its not crappy phone gps w 3 meter gps resolution)
 

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Fun upgrade for a bit faster spool and a lot more midrange torque! I was definitely impressed with how well Zazzn's car ran at those SIV events for such modest mods.

But Madison's concerns about the limitations of the stock CT26 turbine housing are well founded. With a 62-1 upgraded CT running balls-out on race gas I simply could not break 400whp with the stock CT turbine housing and turbine wheel. Boost would come on around 4k, torque and power would peak by 5400rpm or so, and then boost (and HP and torque) would fall off bigtime by 7k. I played with cam gear timing, I had a divorced downpipe with an open WG dump and no cat, I even tried physically blocking the WG port to hold it shut - boost would spike to 23psi at 4600rpm or so, and fall hard to 16-17psi by 6500. It's simply out of turbine at that point.

For a 57 trim and wanting the torque and response benefits Zazzn describes, you'll do great with this combo until around 350whp and maybe a bit more torque. But as E% goes up, your 'running out of turbine' threshold goes down because of how much more physical mass needs to go through the turbine housing.

All in all, this makes me wish I had a near-stock 7M-GTE MK3 to play with. Cool upgrade path within it's limitations!
 
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Moderator, l337 M0d3r4t0r
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Discussion Starter #13
back to this draggy time run. what RPM range are you timing from or intending to ?

up above you say 60-130 and 40-100 mph, but you also mention one gear and no shift (which totally makes sense)

this is not one gear in my 5 speed (w58/4.3). 4th is topping out 6200 rpm around 115. so a pull from 3100 - 6200 rpm would be 57.5-115 mph.

what value is timing any run if you are not in the power band? I could care less how my car pulls below 4k rpm. Im not trying to come off argumentative or doubtful.... Im interested but not seeing the picture of how this would work.

also how does one account for different road conditions (aka not totally flat). would you run back to back different directions like a salt flat run ;) if the road is a big cup / bowl how does that factor in

possibly I can clarify my position on trap speed. say you run your car 5 times in a day, Im talking 0 changes. you take your best trap, weigh the car and use an online calculator. Id wager a 6 pack of beer I could come up with a more accurate hp estimate VS some draggy time/mph range/weight calculator. as always I open to be proven wrong. but maybe we are talking apples and oranges. if we are comparing our cars and who is faster these draggy times would be solid data (provided its not crappy phone gps w 3 meter gps resolution)
One gear test will show power everywhere. Nothing will change much out of power. The goal is not to see how much faster I'm going down the 1/4 because again variables change. vs doing a 1 gear pull. It's much easier to a 1 gear pull on the same stretch of highway on-ramp or road than it is to account for a launch in the car. Dragy accounts for the slope negative or positive as you make the run.

Dragy overlays the video of the run, weather, slope, and distance and time. You should check it out. it's pretty awesome. I got a better version of it called Pgear that is 20HZ and even more accurate like the Vbox sport. You should check it out, it's really awesome as a comparison tool. Most fast cars do 60-130 tests, but at 300 WHP I'll have driven across NA before I get to 130 and defiantly be in jail.
 
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