Supra Forums banner

41 - 60 of 129 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
Unfortunately it’s common practice with all European cars. Engineers call it planned obsolescence. They purposely make it feel as closest possible to a time of their choosing. This all seems to have started some Time around the year 2000 and up for the Germans anyway.
So much misinformation! Planned obsolescence is a concept that was developed by the American Auto Industry, in particular GM way back in the 1920's (not the 2020's). The head of GM at the time, Alfred P. Sloan suggested annual model-year design changes to convince car owners that they needed to buy a new replacement each year, an idea borrowed from the bicycle industry. It has nothing to do with engineering cars to fail after a certain period (close to warranty expiration) and is definitely not a BMW or European concept. The concept of "Planned Obsolescence" has since been adapted by many other industries (cars, motorcycles, boats, appliances, electronics, clothes, even houses, etc.).
 

·
iSPOOL
Joined
·
961 Posts
I agree many companies want you to keep buying their products often, some are worst than others (mobile phones may be the worst industry)
BMW's short average length of ownership and higher cost of repairs post-warranty make it one of the worst in the industry. It makes sense to lease them every 3 years and swap for a new model. We already know that most BMW's are leased vs bought.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
172 Posts
Irrelevant who coined the phrase or the concept. The facts are the Germans are openly practicing planned obsolescence. It’s so bad that a lot of the rubbers and plastics used on the car such as window moldings or wiring harness shielding, Started to treat very quickly. People of been traumatized which is why everybody is so angry when Toyota went with a company that’s practices planned obsolescence like a religion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
I agree, who coined the phrase is irrelevant. However, the fact is that while building cars with poorly engineered, failure prone or low quality components may be a lot of things (design failure, false economy, bad marketing, etc.), it is not by definition "planned obsolescence". You are using the term incorrectly. Also you use the broad term "the Germans" when referring to BMW when there are several car companies are based in Germany, not just BMW. They are not all the same. My first hand experience with BMW is minimal, but I am on my second Porsche Cayenne (2011 and 2019) and also own an Audi R8 V10 Spyder and can state that all three are extremely solid and well built with superior materials. Now, are they 100% problem free? The new Cayenne has been so far (9 mths.) and I have replaced three of the R8's magneto-rheological shocks (two under warranty) which are failure prone (also fail on Corvette's, Cadillac's, Ferrari, others). The 2011 Cayenne had an AC blower motor fail during year one and it had a cam adjuster sensor issue just before I traded it that caused an annoying MIL. Other than that, all three have been reliable, started whenever called upon, handle phenomenally, are comfortable, have great ergonomics and go like stink. To me they are drivers cars (i.e. fun to drive). At the end of the day, that's what enthusiasts are most looking for in a car. If you can get great reliability too, all the better. BTW, I just read the latest issue of Consumer Reports and the 2016 BMW X3 was recommended as a used car top choice (under $27K category) along with the Lexus ES350. Its reliability score was "Better than Average". In its category (Luxury mid-size SUV) the X3's reliability rating was third behind two Lexus NX versions (gas and hybrid). It was rated higher than Acura, Volvo, Cadillac, Buick, Lincoln, Mercedes, Porsche and several others. Don't shoot the messenger!!! Oh, BTW I don't work for BWM, or Porsche, or Audi, or Toyota or any car company for that matter. I've just been a car enthusiast since buying my first car (1972 Mercury Cougar XR7) in 1976. It died peacefully in the spring of 1980 due to multiple health issues: extreme rust, suspension failure, electrical issues, oil burning engine, slipping transmission and it had only one functioning brake (right front).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
172 Posts
I’m using the term absolutely correctly as it is the best way to describe what’s going on. BMW engineers are definitely deliberately designing failure points intentionally. In my experience the worst offenders are BMW, Audi and Volkswagen as the junkiest. Mercedes is in the middle with Porsche being the most reliable out of Germany.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,313 Posts
All german cars of recent years should be sold before the warranty expires...I thought that was common knowledge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
"Planned Obsolescence" is defined as a marketing strategy of introducing new models every few years to encourage buyers to purchase the "latest" style, model, features, color, etc. It has nothing to do with reliability or designing a vehicle or any product to fail (break, disintegrate, cease to function as designed, etc.) after a set period of time, milage, or other metric. You assert that; "the worst offenders are BMW, Audi and Volkswagen as the junkiest". Have you owned all these vehicles? Which models? What kind of failures? The data collected by companies that track and publish reliability statistics (J.D. Power, Consumer Reports, etc.) does not seem to agree with your assertion. The two tables below show 2019 J.D. Power data for initial quality (IQS) and long term reliability (VDS) which is based upon three year 2016 model reliability. J.D. Power actually surveys owners of these vehicles. Consumer Reports also do similar surveys and their data closely correlates with J.D. Power. I tend to give more credence to the VDS rather than the IQS since a lot of the initial quality issues are related to things like infotainment, driver assistance systems, tire imbalance, paint and trim, etc. I have no doubt that the J.D. Power data will be disputed (as will any data that does not agree with BMW's being unreliable crap and therefore the MKV is as well). Interestingly, the difference between Toyota and BMW is only 13% for IQS and for VDS. I will point out this data is limited in that it only documents the number of problems per 100 vehicles but not their severity. BTW, I believe a MKV designed and built by Toyota instead of BMW would likely be more reliable. I believe it because this "hypothetical" scenario is supported by data, not emotion or anecdotal "stories". Oh and definitely don't buy a Land Rover, Jaguar or Fiat. They're junk! LOL
244767

244768
 

·
iSPOOL
Joined
·
961 Posts
Oh goodness. JD Powaa awards lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
I'm sorry Shady, but J.D. Power and Consumer Reports data is what is available. If you have a better source of vehicle reliability data, please enlighten us. I welcome any data that can educate. BTW, I have already heard all the anecdotal evidence, like; "I had a 328i and it was nothing but problems" and "my buddy had a Z4 where the tranny locked up" and "I heard about a fellow who owned a M3....". I am not trying to defend BMW. Don't own one, never have and likely won't. However, I find the near hysterical criticism of the MKV amusing, especially knowing that most of the critics have never driven, much less owned a BMW but are ready to jump on the critic bandwagon. These are the same people who also either would not or could not buy a MKV even if it was built by Toyota and a worthy successor to the MKIV. Note that I said "most of the critics" not "all". So before anyone gets insulted and says they have driven every BMW ever built and were all set to buy the new MKV if it had been a true Toyota, please relax. I just like a good debate.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,180 Posts
All german cars of recent years should be sold before the warranty expires...I thought that was common knowledge.
Matt,

Apparently, some didn't get the memo, although I will say Porsche has done alright for itself in this regard. Funny how some anecdotal commentary counts and others do not. I suppose I would recognize the difference if I wasn't, allegedly, shooting messengers and hysterically criticizing the MKV.

As you know, there are many former and current BMW owners on this site who speak with knowledge and experience about these cars. At least one participant in this thread has owned more than 30 BMWs and I rely on his observations, 1A1's, Silver Supra's and Mike Malloy's when it comes to all things BMW. I have no real idea how this thread devolved into tangential discussions of "planned obsolescence" and the reliability records of other German manufacturers, but I'll conclude this post with the following comment.

What is falsely characterized as hysterical criticism is a failure to recognize the fundamental underpinning of the disgust and vitriol this car has generated from a sizable contingent of the Supra community. The car is a BMW. Nothing, and I mean nothing, else matters. Not performance statistics, not how well it drives (it is a BMW after all) and not how well it does against the competition or how quickly it gets to a given quarter mile time. The BMWness of this car completely cancels out all that and more.

Since the fact this car, but for its exterior, is 100% a BMW which cannot be changed, and appreciating the position of many in the Supra community noted immediately above, it should be abundantly clear for most that posts made to "educate" the Supra community about how incredible the MKV is will not have their intended effect. It is because we ARE educated and because the car is a BMW (full stop), and because we were deceived by Toyota in general and the Chief Engineer in particular, and because for the first time ever in my recollection a car manufacturer has completely bastardized its most iconic car (since the 2000GT), it is not this group that needs to be educated.

I'll leave to you to figure out who does, but arguing that there is, somehow, an equivalence between Toyota and BMW reliability will give you a hint.


Ken.
 

·
iSPOOL
Joined
·
961 Posts
This isnt my argument @normore lol. I believe we've had this conversation before and I made my points & listed evidence for BMW's reliability. I don't take JD Power and Consumer Reports as the end all say all(you listed one of my concerns with their ratings that I mentioned in a previous conversation). Even the IQS you posted shows BMW well below the industry standard. What matters to me when comparing Toyota and BMW exceeds the 3 year time limit. Cost of repairs, value depreciation, length of ownership, number of cars purchased vs leased, recalls etc.
I can post a handful a sites and reviews showing BMW is not reliable in the long run, as many luxury cars in general aren't so I won't go down the rabbit hole again.
It's well known that BMW more than others encourages its owners, actually mostly leasees, to trade in their cars for new ones on 3 years or less.
A person doesn't have to own or have driven a BMW to have an informed opinion on the vehicle. That's a fallacy which I believe you stated you weren't interested in hearing.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,313 Posts
Agreed Ken on the Porsche's, they do have some reliable drivetrains in their catalog. I speak in blanket statements only to make my point.
 

·
iSPOOL
Joined
·
961 Posts
Here's a question to think about. Who here would take a 6 year old 125,000 mile BMW 1, 3, 5, 7, or X3 series over a 6 year old 125,000 mile Toyota Corolla, Camry, Highlander, Tacoma, Tundra?

No warranty, buying as is. I'm taking the Toyota every time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
Here's a question to think about. Who here would take a 6 year old 125,000 mile BMW 1, 3, 5, 7, or X3 series over a 6 year old 125,000 mile Toyota Corolla, Camry, Highlander, Tacoma, Tundra?

No warranty, buying as is. I'm taking the Toyota every time.
Shady, I agree that long term any Luxury Car (especially German brands) will suffer due to cost of repairs and value depreciation. I traded my 2011 Cayenne 'S' on a new one because the likely repair cost for a simple cam sensor or cam activator replacement would have been outrageous ( it had a MIL). Ken, I also don't disagree that a Toyota is a better built car than a BMW. No argument there. However, Toyota's current offering (including all of the cars Shady listed, Corolla, Camry, Highlander, Tacoma, Tundra) while extremely reliable, super cheap to own and great transportation devices, are also incredibly boring to drive. I've owned a couple of them and driven them all. Posed with the question Shady asked above; I'd have to reply; "I'd take an M3 or M5 over a Camry or a Corolla any day of the week." My problem (amongst many ) is, I see cars as and drive them for entertainment not basic transportation. So a Camry or Corolla would just sit. I admit I am not the typical buyer/owner since I have several cars and I'm retired, so I don't have to rely on one for basic transport (no work to get to). I'm also fortunate to have the means to fix them if they break. Most people admittedly would be better off choosing a Camry, Highlander or a Corolla.
Ken, my apologies if you took offense to my statement that I see a lot of "hysterical criticism" of the MKV. I have a lot of respect for you and your contributions to the Supra community so definitely not my intent. I do "recognize the fundamental underpinning of the disgust and vitriol this car has generated from a sizable contingent of the Supra community". It's blatantly obvious! I will say one more thing then I'm done on this topic. I've been a MKIV owner since the beginning and a Supra Forums member since Feb, 2002 (a week after Ken) and I don't recognize the names of most of the people posting on the MKV side. You two guys yes, but most no. Just saying.
 

·
iSPOOL
Joined
·
961 Posts
I'm fine with you admitting that you'll take a car that I'll cost you much more money to keep it road worthy that also does not hold its value as compared to other brands. The average consumer doesn't have money to have play cars and a reliable family car. And what you consider boring could be entralling to another. I'm sure BMW's are pretty boring to people who drive Ferraris, mclarens, and bugattis.
I could have listed Lexus as well since they have a reliable, and wont cost you an arm & a leg to repair. Do you consider those boring? You have to admit driver excitement is driven by opinion not fact so that wouldn't have any bearing on what you all are talking about above.

Lastly I acknowledge that BMW reliability and MKV reliability should be rated on their own, I have no reason not to lump it in with BMW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
Hey a Corolla is also more reliable and cheaper to own than a MKIV but we both own and drive a Supra not a Corolla (my sister has one with a 6spd). A Ferrari definitely is much more fun to drive than a M3 or M5, but at some point everybody has a price point. The V10 R8 Spyder 6spd (bought used with 10K miles in 2013) was my limit. Lexus, equals great cars. I have owned three Rx's and an LS. All very reliable, comfortable and boring to drive. Other than the LC500 (and LFA), there is not a Lexus I would be interested in owning/driving. The LC doesn't come with a manual so I'll stick with the R8 Spyder. I also don't have any reason to believe the MKV will be any more reliable than an M2 or M4 but I hope Toyota puts in some sort of improvement program (Kaizen). If this car (MKV) is not a success, good luck getting Toyota to stick its foot in the sports car water again. It took 20 years to get them to do anything even if it was not what we wanted.
 

·
Kappa Check 1 2
Joined
·
669 Posts
Here's a question to think about. Who here would take a 6 year old 125,000 mile BMW 1, 3, 5, 7, or X3 series over a 6 year old 125,000 mile Toyota Corolla, Camry, Highlander, Tacoma, Tundra?

No warranty, buying as is. I'm taking the Toyota every time.
I'm going to have to back this statement!
Bought my 2007 Tundra in 2014 w/ 136000 miles, I'm sitting at just over 221000 now and all I've replaced is radiator and starter!

-Rich
 

·
Very Senior Member
Joined
·
9,954 Posts
Going off on tangents is an exercise in mental masturbation.
IMHO, Consumer Reports and JD Power surveys, especially for short-term reliability and/or satisfaction are fairly worthless. Not just because they are short-term, but because the survey responses are heavily influenced by a need for the buyer to show they made a good choice - or just because they think they made a good choice. I will put stock in the longer-term surveys, like the ones in the annual CR ratings - looking back several years. That is when the problems begin to show up and you can see a fairly consistent pattern among makes and over time for particular problem areas.
My direct experience and your direct experience have an influence on what we like, but it is anecdotal. When we have folks here that have a lot of personal experience (multiple makes, models, and years), I begin to listen to their opinions more closely.
The reliability of this car will be known in a few years, but there is a much higher probability that it will follow a BMW pattern than a Toyota pattern. MUCH higher.
 

·
iSPOOL
Joined
·
961 Posts
Hey a Corolla is also more reliable and cheaper to own than a MKIV but we both own and drive a Supra not a Corolla (my sister has one with a 6spd). A Ferrari definitely is much more fun to drive than a M3 or M5, but at some point everybody has a price point. The V10 R8 Spyder 6spd (bought used with 10K miles in 2013) was my limit. Lexus, equals great cars. I have owned three Rx's and an LS. All very reliable, comfortable and boring to drive. Other than the LC500 (and LFA), there is not a Lexus I would be interested in owning/driving. The LC doesn't come with a manual so I'll stick with the R8 Spyder. I also don't have any reason to believe the MKV will be any more reliable than an M2 or M4 but I hope Toyota puts in some sort of improvement program (Kaizen). If this car (MKV) is not a success, good luck getting Toyota to stick its foot in the sports car water again. It took 20 years to get them to do anything even if it was not what we wanted.
My comparison was meant to be the average BMW vs the average Toyota. If you wish to change to GT and sports cars it further hurts BMWs reliability ratings as the MKIV has stood the test of time on reliability, retained & gained value, and its one of the most sought after cars from the 90s. You would be hard pressed to find a BMW counterpart that comes close to the MKIV Supra.
The ISf, RCF and LC500 cars all look pretty decent and fun to drive so like I said driver excitement is more opinion driven than fact driven which is a different topic than reliability.
 
41 - 60 of 129 Posts
Top