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The Great Beast 666
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
please let them see these.


and

 
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Bignum supra is pretty bad ass and he is a monster on the track. Honestly, I try to do amateur time attack and autocross events with my mk4 w/v160 as much as possible. For a 25yr old car, its fun as all hell. I usually can keep up with other newer cars on turns, breaking and my stu TT setup gives me a little more of an edge now. I do have other mods but the main focus is on tires and break pads (might upgrade to a bigger break setup up but not yet). It total agree with this forum, the MK4 supra is a good all around performance car. The new bmw/Zupra is boring in my opinion a disappointment from Toyota. My opinion.
I don't know why i added that in there lol.
 

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You are aware that it IS in fact a GT car yes? You are also aware this is Supraforums not facebook? You might not have scoured this forum very well as most of the "OG" know what this car can and cannot do.

That first video looks fun. but as with anything racing, how does it do in it's category?
 

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Just a guy who loves cars
94' Turbo, Targa, 6 spd, Ren Red.
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Also, for the record, Supra JGTC cars did not use 2JZ's. They used 3S-GTE.
 
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I always love to see JZA80 track or race car footage. It's an excellent chassis for the purpose and it's a shame it saw such limited development while it was in production.

You are aware that it IS in fact a GT car yes? You are also aware this is Supraforums not facebook? You might not have scoured this forum very well as most of the "OG" know what this car can and cannot do.

That first video looks fun. but as with anything racing, how does it do in it's category?
'Sports car' and 'GT car' are such massively subjective terms that it's pointless to even bring it up. The term 'GT' itself is massively subjective between the widely varied 'GT' racing classes that have existed and the 'GT' hypothetical luggage-toting gentleman's fancy vacation mobile.

The truth is that the MK2, MK3, and MK4 have better handling and braking than most would expect of their contemporaries. People bitched about the MK3's and MK4's weight at the time and yet now we have a world full of 4500lb Chargers, Challengers etc. Whatever.

Also, for the record, Supra JGTC cars did not use 2JZ's. They used 3S-GTE.
Started with the 3S-GTE in the 90's, later they went to the 3UZ-FE V8's, all-motor built to to GT500 class horsepower limits until 2003 or 2004 when they replaced the JZA80 in GT500 class racing with the UZZ30.
 

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The Great Beast 666
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
true but it does pretty well with the 2j as shown here:


 
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true but it does pretty well with the 2j as shown here:
I suppose I should have mentioned (again) that the only reason the 3S-GTE or 3UZ-FE were ever used instead of the 2JZ was the HP restriction at 500ps for GT-500, and the class rules that allowed in-make engine swaps.

Had there been a 'GT-800' class, there would have been a lot of hot 2JZ action on those tracks.
 

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The Great Beast 666
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
a
You are aware that it IS in fact a GT car yes? You are also aware this is Supraforums not facebook? You might not have scoured this forum very well as most of the "OG" know what this car can and cannot do.

That first video looks fun. but as with anything racing, how does it do in it's category?
A gt classification is more for something like the Ferrari 456GT, Lexus LC500, Lexus RCF, and the Zupra, comfy, fast and good for long distances as well. Basically luxury with pep. The Supra especially the MKIV as you may know doesnt fall into that catagory, hell you know it never came with a bloody cupholder. It was misclassified asone.


I have been on this forum since God knows when as a browser in 1999 and since 2001 during the first incarnation of Supra forums as Celicadude, then did not rejoin till 2009. I know the OGs know, this is so we can show the Zupra lovers and misinformed kids that just discovered this car who say it is only good for straight line and say other crap like listed in "stupid shit people say to Supra owners"
 

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The Great Beast 666
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I suppose I should have mentioned (again) that the only reason the 3S-GTE or 3UZ-FE were ever used instead of the 2JZ was the HP restriction at 500ps for GT-500, and the class rules that allowed in-make engine swaps.

Had there been a 'GT-800' class, there would have been a lot of hot 2JZ action on those tracks.
I know, im just mentioning it to Chappy.
 
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Just a guy who loves cars
94' Turbo, Targa, 6 spd, Ren Red.
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All facts. 95MKIVTT, I took it for what it was, no worries. Like you, I was more just talking for the Zupra's and Supra fans just now starting to join our cult.
 

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Mind if I do a J?
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Your spice cabinet is shameful.
 
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The Great Beast 666
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

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please let them see these.


and

for the 2nd video the results were this.
Font Automotive exterior Technology Electric blue Electronic device

The Veilside Supra was in 3rd while the stock supra was in 8th behind the viper. The veilside is obviously modified. Also i dont think having modified versions of card would really help prove a point imo.
 

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From the land down under
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I suppose I should have mentioned (again) that the only reason the 3S-GTE or 3UZ-FE were ever used instead of the 2JZ was the HP restriction at 500ps for GT-500, and the class rules that allowed in-make engine swaps.

Had there been a 'GT-800' class, there would have been a lot of hot 2JZ action on those tracks.
I had always believed that the lighter weight, and more rearward placement of the 3S-GTE was to help with the cars weight distribution and handling.

These days we could have a GT2000 class and there would still be some who overshot the mark 🤣 🤣
 

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The Great Beast 666
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
for the 2nd video the results were this.
View attachment 265104
The Veilside Supra was in 3rd while the stock supra was in 8th behind the viper. The veilside is obviously modified. Also i dont think having modified versions of card would really help prove a point imo.
its not about winning or not its about its abilitiy which is quite good.
 

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I have thought about this in depth of why said millennials repeat stupid like some parrot with turretts that found a key of crack stashed in it's nest. I couldn't figure out how every mainstream mag that tested the car against it's rivals said it was FAR superior to every single rival that I quote, " Supra is so competent on track its boring...it runs circles around the competition...the other cars (Viper RT/10, ZR1, Ferrari 512TR, Porsche turbo, NSX, RX7, 300ZX, 3000GT VR4) fall apart at the limit but the Supra is easy to drive all the way up to 10/10ths...best handling car for any amount of money...The Supra's brakes were the only brakes out of all the test cars that had a firm pedal after a week of thrashing it..." With reviews like that where the Supra wins the comparo every single time and is preferred we get these vapid vomitbots that putrify anyone's ears that will listen how the car is sooooo heavyyyyyy and handles like stink on a stick and _ is superior in every way.

The epiphany came to me a couple of years ago as to why this switch happened. Millennials don't read publications. They watch videos and play video games. And they were mostly born after all these reviews took place. To them the only version of the car they know is in Gran Turismo, the movie which may not be named, and what idiots on the internet say about the car. In the US the cars that predominantly take up the airwaves are drag cars that have their balance crushed and modded to a drag bias for which naturally ruins the car. And then the FB groups took over for them vs SF for the same reasons their visual appetite is so narrow for attention only wild builds with record setting numbers even gets attention in that format. If a modest (balanced) car gets covered in that format, all the comments are from 12 yr olds who can't drive, "bleh, overrated, heavy, pos, slower than___" because their only interaction with the car so far has been the movie franchise that will remain unamed and record drag cars for FB headline attention grabbing posts, and a video game.

Playing on Gran Turismo, I investigated why is the Supra considered heavy and slow. GT3, GT4, GT5, Prologe, GT6, and probably GT7 the Supra weight distribution in the game was intentionally changed for the worse. I know this due to Kazunori Yamauchi (game designer) did a press interview about the game Waaay back around the release of the GT2 after it had massive commercial success. It even had a section in sema where sema show winners were put in the game. Kaz said, "We biased tuned the older cars down so they wouldn't destroy the newer cars in the game that the manufacturers were debuting. If the old cars are better then the kids playing the game will buy the older cars instead of the new cars the manufacturers were coming out with" When I heard this, I didn't realize at the time what I was seeing was the bias he was talking about.

We OG's know the real balance from the factory is 53/47 f/r weight distribution. In all the aforementioned game versions, the Supra has a 60/40 weight balance. The Supra is under-tired from the factory, and that is exacerbated in the game with that ugly weight balance. You can't change tire width in GT. You can lighten the chassis which makes the balance worse, and fix it with ballast. But then I found another problem. The tire friction cof. If I buy a R comp in the game on the Supra, the car will not grip the same as a R comp with another brand of car. I tested this with braking distance. We all know the Supra Turbo had the braking record for 12 years, but someone didn't like that fact in Polyphony Digital. So they changed the braking balance. The car flat will not brake equal to any car in the game on the same tire. I have even turned the brake bias all the way up in the rear to 10 and the rears wont break traction. If I go 100mph and do a panic stop in a GTR it will stop abnormally fast. In the Supra it keeps going, and going and will eventually stop. The only version of the car in the game was the JDM RZ which had OPTIONAL track brakes that all US spec Supra Turbos get so that means the car will have fade and trouble stopping on the N/A brakes. The calipers show that they are turbo but the car stops like a N/A.

If you get any of Kaz's favorite cars that he says in the interview is the SL mercedes and GTR's you can expect over the top handling and traction that is so unrealistic you wonder if he swapped the Mercedes chassis with the supra. The SL is a POS on the track and handles and brakes like garbage. Its all over the place and the body control is non existent. I have driven a SL55 AMG IRL. It is a decent car but is miles from a Supra dynamics wise. In the game though it is miles better than the Supra. Makes hundreds more horse power (ROFL) has brakes, handling, body control, and tractable power even at over 1000HP+ lol.

GTR - forget eveything about this car in the game is fake.The real life GTR has a 60/40 weight balance. In the game? You guessed right, it is 55/45. So the GTR was modified to be better numbers and traction than the real car, and the Supra was modified to be worse. It doesn't end there. In GT6 you put a small turbo on a supra it makes about 5xxhp. Medium makes about 944hp. Large turbo guesses anyone? 1000+? nope. 937hp. You read that right. The medium turbo makes more power than the large turbo lol. We are lucky to even get that much. The power in the Supra went from 1088hp in GT2 to 9xxhp in GT3, GT4 made 8xxhp and GT5 made 744hp. The crazy thing is the GT5 SC300 makes 789hp with the GE engine. So the GTE is less powerful than the GE and less powerful with a large turbo. Heck ALL the Jap sports cars mentioned above have had a premimum version in all the GT series except for the Supra to this day. The new GT7 announced a premimum Supra is going to be in the game, but I bet $$ they didn't fix what you can't see; which is the chassis dynamics. Talk about a sore loser Kaz. It is so painfully obvious to me now why the millenials are saying what they are saying.

Unfortunately his bias was not limited to the Supra. The SC chassis is even worse. The car is even more under-tired than the Supra from the factory and that weight balance was changed from 57/43 to 65/35. Ballast won't fix it. The car is nearly undriveable in the game. FWD cars like the ITR or CTR are not even that bad and have a better balance than that. The SC is one of the worst handling cars in the game. MR2 Turbo, same story, chaser, aristo, basically all the Toyota cars are stink on a stick dynamically in the game except for the ISF. The ISF can and will run circles around any Toyota product in the game including the Supra and the LFA. If there is no manufacturer stroking here you can call me Mickey Mouse🤡🐭.

The actual game is OK other than that, but honestly that is enough to ruin the experience for me completely. I don't buy the game to beat it. I buy it to drive my fav cars on tracks against other cars to relax, veg out, get seat time and keep my skills sharp. Unfortunately that will be relegated to a PC experience that I am afraid isn't any better. It seems all virtual versions of the Supra are modeled after the one in GT. :(

Looks like this drivel will continue for some time until cars like BIGNUMTT and others like him get more mainstream attention and change the narrative back with actual old and new reviews. And call out Kazunori Yamauchi publicly for this discrepancy. Because bottom line, the way he crapped all over Eiji Toyoda's legacy is criminal. Eiji Toyoda was the passionate man that brought Toyota to the behemoth it is today with sheer passion and craftsmanship. Eiji was responsible for Japan competing with the world. After he passed away his replacement Katsuaki Watanabe in 2005 was then replaced after the acceleration scandal with the prius by the original founder's grandson Akio. Akio has not produced a single sporting product since he took the reins in 2009. Now we are going to have Kazunori highlight and prance this crack baby bastard child A90, GR86 and GR Yaris in GT7 further erasing the pride of Japan of Eiji's legacy over Akio's half baked lame slough attempt at a sporty vehicles that none of which are even made by Toyota.

Encourage incompetent leaders mistakes and destroy competent passionate leaders triumphs, where have I heard this stink story before? Time to get earplugs...
 

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(insert about twelve billion 'standing ovation' .gifs and emojis here)

Well said, @SUPRAT!!!!
I honestly had no idea they nerfed/sabotaged the Supra and other cars so badly in Gran Turismo. That is simply depressing :(
But it adds up to the result we have now. Go figure..

....vapid vomitbots....
Totally stealing that!
 

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Playing on Gran Turismo, I investigated why is the Supra considered heavy and slow. GT3, GT4, GT5, Prologe, GT6, and probably GT7 the Supra weight distribution in the game was intentionally changed for the worse. I know this due to Kazunori Yamauchi (game designer) did a press interview about the game Waaay back around the release of the GT2 after it had massive commercial success. It even had a section in sema where sema show winners were put in the game. Kaz said, "We biased tuned the older cars down so they wouldn't destroy the newer cars in the game that the manufacturers were debuting. If the old cars are better then the kids playing the game will buy the older cars instead of the new cars the manufacturers were coming out with" When I heard this, I didn't realize at the time what I was seeing was the bias he was talking about.

Ugh, I've played the shit out of GT (Early teens till now in my 30's), and while I've always noticed something was off with the Supra specs. But WOW, I've never realized the handicap was to that extent. What a shame 😰

I've clocked some very fast times in modern heavyweights in the game, so this raises questions 😂

It is as depressing as Wreckless has mentioned

In GT Sports, I like chipping away on Time attacks and compare them to multiple different platforms.
My PR of my favorite tracks is usually within +/- tenths of a second compared to other high performance RWD platforms such as the (NSX, FD, S2000, ect).
However, the gap is further from AWD's at their full potentials such as the GTR.

I definitely don't feel like the Supra is "Slow", but actually is one of the more fun platform for me in that game, as the car's handling isn't so point and shoot like the others, but it typically likes to go "Under, and then Over" closer to the limits of the tires.

In real life, the MK4 characteristics has a disconnected steering feel that can throw off some initial impressions of the car. However, if you push them, and you learn to be more attentive to the limits of the tires instead of the steering feel, you'll feel and appreciate the car's true potential. However, the chassis dynamic that the game highlights when it goes "Under and then Over" - it definitely does this in real life, but I definitely notice I don't feel a braking advantage in the game over other platforms. Mkiv TT brakes are a beast in real life 😂

The disconnected steering feel in real life may not be for beginners in real life IMO, but it contributes to the well damped NVH of the car, and is comfortable.

Also in real life, the high speed stability of the Supra is just truly phenomenal.
The Supra is much more stable than a FD in real life, but I don't really sense this difference in the game, and
on the contrary, the game also fails to replicate the harmonically smooth feel of a rotary motor, IMO.
 

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Ugh, I've played the shit out of GT (Early teens till now in my 30's), and while I've always noticed something was off with the Supra specs. But WOW, I've never realized the handicap was to that extent. What a shame 😰

I've clocked some very fast times in modern heavyweights in the game, so this raises questions 😂

It is as depressing as Wreckless has mentioned

In GT Sports, I like chipping away on Time attacks and compare them to multiple different platforms.
My PR of my favorite tracks is usually within +/- tenths of a second compared to other high performance RWD platforms such as the (NSX, FD, S2000, ect).
However, the gap is further from AWD's at their full potentials such as the GTR.

I definitely don't feel like the Supra is "Slow", but actually is one of the more fun platform for me in that game, as the car's handling isn't so point and shoot like the others, but it typically likes to go "Under, and then Over" closer to the limits of the tires.

In real life, the MK4 characteristics has a disconnected steering feel that can throw off some initial impressions of the car. However, if you push them, and you learn to be more attentive to the limits of the tires instead of the steering feel, you'll feel and appreciate the car's true potential. However, the chassis dynamic that the game highlights when it goes "Under and then Over" - it definitely does this in real life, but I definitely notice I don't feel a braking advantage in the game over other platforms. Mkiv TT brakes are a beast in real life 😂

The disconnected steering feel in real life may not be for beginners in real life IMO, but it contributes to the well damped NVH of the car, and is comfortable.

Also in real life, the high speed stability of the Supra is just truly phenomenal.
The Supra is much more stable than a FD in real life, but I don't really sense this difference in the game, and
on the contrary, the game also fails to replicate the harmonically smooth feel of a rotary motor, IMO.
I agree Sam with your assessments. No it's not slow but its not fast either. There are some characteristics that are not there as well, like turn in. The Supra has a very very good front end that is anemic weak sauce in the game. Constant problematic under-steering and vague steering as you said makes you wait on the front end in a way that I have never done in real life. Due to the overblown front bias weight distribution.This ruins the corner speeds too. I don't ever recall waiting on a MKIV front end on a track. A little trail brake or weight transfer is all it takes to tuck it under and drive out the corner using the throttle. Even with the stock tires. It's a joy to late brake deep in the corners, and the car is able to do it all the way to the point till it is too late and physics takes over. You can drive a Supra to the limit and it doesn't fall apart like so many other cars.

The game has to have N/A brakes by the performance of it because that is kinda what the N/A brakes feel like on the track. Never quite enough capability. N/A brakes have trouble with large speed dumps and braking balance in corners, and vectoring individual brakes is slow and dull compared to the turbo brakes because of the slide lock calipers do not seem as responsive.

The diff is another place I suspect has been fettered with, as the Supra torsen LSD is progressive and gentle and will easily give you what you ask for. In the game the rear end is not progressive at all, it feels wooden and it either holds or it doesn't. Has a notchy feel to me. You can feel this when trying to powerslide, the car won't power-slide until you completely overload the tire with a over the top e brake clutch kick with giant weight transfer and then it lets go completley and you are opposite lock to catch it and modulating throttle does little to help. I find this not representative IRL of the Supra at all. The car gives you what you ask for in the amount you requested progressively. Its not wooden at all. You don't have to do all that to get the car to slide. A small weight transfer flick of the steering and throttle can get the car to go in that direction and feed the throttle to get a progressive slide. The game Supra won't do this at all. The car under-steers so bad that it won't cut in and the throttle won't do anything to push the rear out it just lights up the tires and nothing happens as it under-steers off the track. The brakes are so weak the front end won't cut in. If you turn up the bias in the front even one click they lock up and the rears turned up never will lock with any amount of bias even up to 10. Ugh so frustrating. All your inputs have to be enormous to get the car to change direction. Not what I have experienced IRL. I tuned most of that out but it's still there. Meanwhile a SL 55AMG progressively out handles, brakes and accelerates the Supra easily. lol Heck in GT6 my 10' Jaguar XFR out brakes, handles and accelerates the Supra. It's a 4385lb 4dr car. I own this car IRL and it is great but we are talking about 1000lbs difference here. Your telling me my tuned 4300lb Jag can be 4 seconds faster than a track tuned Single turbo APU Supra turned up all the way at a track like Daytona?

In GT1, I got the MKIV Supra Turbo and beat the whole game with it. It murdered everything and even killed some of the race cars. You could out late brake any car and drive in/out of corners like nothing. GT2 came same story. But then the manufacturers got involved with the game by the time GT3 came and everything changed. The best handling car became one of the the worst over the course of the next few GT titles. So sad because everyone else out there can get in their favorite car and enjoy themselves and race others and have a great time. But you get to fight against the designers of the game handicaps on your car AND your opponents. I did a pretty good job tuning out the bias but there is some serious handicapping that you just can't undo. Its like having our own personal FIA to keep us from cleaning up everyone virtually. lol haters.
 
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