[Midnight Hour]

For someone in the market who needs to support up to 700-750rwhp or so, with the very cost-effective methanol injection kits(Dereks kit and the SMC kit) starting to become popular on our cars, I'm wondering why anyone would prefer a complete fuel-system over the meth. injection. The fuel systems are 5-6x more expensive and you have to run pricey race gas to use it to it's potential. If someone's goals are 700-750rwhp like stated above, why would you run a fuel system instead of a meth. injection kit?

Brandon

 

[quick]

I've heard it argued that the 'right way' to do it is to run race gas.

Another argument I've heard is that if you're going to modify an expensive car why would you do it on the cheap? Why not do it the correct way and put the fuel system in there, etc?

I will never need 700bhp (or the associated peaky powerband) so I'm not concerned.

 

[VeilsideTT]

I've heard it argued that the 'right way' to do it is to run race gas.

Another argument I've heard is that if you're going to modify an expensive car why would you do it on the cheap? Why not do it the correct way and put the fuel system in there, etc?

I will never need 700bhp (or the associated peaky powerband) so I'm not concerned.

Everyone says that methanol is the "cheap" way to go but I don't get it. If you accidentally overboost to 23psi on pump gas and methanol you are more than fine. If you do that with an upgraded fuel system you could be in very big trouble. It seems that the only downside to the methanol is running out of it. With a fluid level indicator, that should never happen. The methanol system can also be set up with safeties that change fuel maps and lower boost if the system ever fails. To me, it sounds safer than a fuel system could ever be.

 

[silvino]

I feel safer running a full fuel system and maybe supplementing with the methanol. I think the methanol injection kits need some time before being something I would depend on completely.

 

[neonafk]

Everyone says that methanol is the "cheap" way to go but I don't get it. If you accidentally overboost to 23psi on pump gas and methanol you are more than fine. If you do that with an upgraded fuel system you could be in very big trouble. It seems that the only downside to the methanol is running out of it. With a fluid level indicator, that should never happen. The methanol system can also be set up with safeties that change fuel maps and lower boost if the system ever fails. To me, it sounds safer than a fuel system could ever be.

seth is your meth kit installed yet?

Brett

 

[omr]

I would like to know before I go spending $1700+ for a fuel system. What are the limitations of the methanol kit with the stock fuel setup? I am also planning to be in the 700-750 rwhp level.

 

[Hau]

Everyone says that methanol is the "cheap" way to go but I don't get it. If you accidentally overboost to 23psi on pump gas and methanol you are more than fine. If you do that with an upgraded fuel system you could be in very big trouble. It seems that the only downside to the methanol is running out of it. With a fluid level indicator, that should never happen. The methanol system can also be set up with safeties that change fuel maps and lower boost if the system ever fails. To me, it sounds safer than a fuel system could ever be.

I agree with Seth. I have an upgraded fuel system and meth injection. I was doing a whole bunch of 1/4 mile pulls at 20 psi on pump gas and meth, forgot to check the meth container, ran out of meth during the last two pulls. My failsafe kicked in, dropped the boost to 16 psi, and injected a bunch of fuel. I know that 20 psi on pump gas is fine, but imagine if this was at 26psi or more. For those guys with an upgraded fuel system and dual pumps in the back, what's the failsafe when one of the pumps gets clogged or stops operating? Unless you're upgrading your fuel system to a single pump that can handle the horsepower, there's a big risk running two pumps IMO.

 

[VeilsideTT]

I feel safer running a full fuel system and maybe supplementing with the methanol. I think the methanol injection kits need some time before being something I would depend on completely.

But I don't understand why. If you overboost with a fuel system you blow your engine. If you overboost with meth its not as bad since the car runs so much cooler.

On a fuel system you can't run over 18 psi on pump. On methanol you can run way more.

If a fuel pump on your fuel system dies then you can set up a safety to save your motor. If the pump in the meth kit fails then you can set up a few safeties to save your motor. I know people just started using meth on our cars but it seems to be just as idiot proof as a fuel system. Just make sure not to run out of meth. Keep a warning light up front to let you know. Would you go out and do 28psi runs when your gas gauge is reading below empty? No, so just don't do it with meth.

Brett, my kit is not installed and therefore I have no first hand experience with this yet. From what I've heard though, people still favor fuel systems because it is what has been done and proven in the past. I just don't see the arguement that meth is inferior to a fuel system of that it is just a "band-aid" fix.

 

[silvino]

A fuel system has been proven to work relatively well and safely the way it has been with the larger injectors and dual fuel pumps. You can see the lack of fuel pressure and either stop or have the stand alone ECU throw a trouble code. Your car WILL also go lean IF you happen to be at WOT and the second pump isn't on so you WILL see it on your AFR display or logger. A pump will probably go out when you're not at WOT and it should show signs of odd behaviour sometime after. It's not a perfect way to tell BUT it has been pretty good. You don't hear of many people posting about blown engines because of a fuel pump failing.

A methanol system however hasn't proven to be able to support a single car at higher power on its own safely over time. The problem here is that you're completely depending on that meth kit to deliver enough of itself to each cylinder on a single jet. This to me isn't as safe.

Also, I've had a couple of Supra tuners mention the variability when tuning methanol so they had to opt keeping things on the richer side to be safe. having this Variability when I was relying solely on this for a fuel system would scare me.

People also posted about seeing knock at higher boost levels when injecting methanol. I'm sure this problem would go away with enough methanol vs. fuel but then again you may be asking for more methanol than the kit was designed to give or even hold in reserve.

But I don't understand why. If you overboost with a fuel system you blow your engine. If you overboost with meth its not as bad since the car runs so much cooler.

On a fuel system you can't run over 18 psi on pump. On methanol you can run way more.

If a fuel pump on your fuel system dies then you can set up a safety to save your motor. If the pump in the meth kit fails then you can set up a few safeties to save your motor. I know people just started using meth on our cars but it seems to be just as idiot proof as a fuel system. Just make sure not to run out of meth. Keep a warning light up front to let you know. Would you go out and do 28psi runs when your gas gauge is reading below empty? No, so just don't do it with meth.

Brett, my kit is not installed and therefore I have no first hand experience with this yet. From what I've heard though, people still favor fuel systems because it is what has been done and proven in the past. I just don't see the arguement that meth is inferior to a fuel system of that it is just a "band-aid" fix.

 

[silvino]

Btw, a non band aid fix would be to run straight race fuel OR straight methanol (this could get real expensive). Another idea might be to have direct port methanol with several gallons in reserve.

 

[turbomx5]

Also, I've had a couple of Supra tuners mention the variability when tuning methanol so they had to opt keeping things on the richer side to be safe. having this Variability when I was relying solely on this for a fuel system would scare me.

People also posted about seeing knock at higher boost levels when injecting methanol. I'm sure this problem would go away with enough methanol vs. fuel but then again you may be asking for more methanol than the kit was designed to give or even hold in reserve.

Both of these problems showed up when people started turbo charging the 2nd gen miatas. The problem was linked to the fact that people were using 1 injector as a fogger in front of the throttle body. You would get uneven and inconsistant fuel distribution into each of the intake runners. The wideband would get an ok reading, but 1 cylinder would be lean while the others were rich, causing knock.

I know that is a different car, but you shouldn't rely, expecially at high boost levels, on a set up like this to keep your car safe. If you had a fogger in each intake runner, that would be a different story...

Matt

 

[VeilsideTT]

Silvino, I wasn't claiming that fuel systems are unreliable, I said that you could set them up with safties too. I just didn't see advantages over methanol.

Also, you are right. For high horsepower levels, methanol just isn't enough. For those of us not looking to go beyond 700rwhp it seems to be a good option.

The problem of uneven distribution seems very reasonable though. I hope Derek jumps in to tell us whether or not he has addressed that problem with his kit. I would definitly like to get more info on that before I try to go running high boost on my car. Thanks for the info guys. This is the first time I've heard people say WHY they thought methanol was considered a quick fix.

 

[jaynite]

meth kits have been around for years on turbo buicks..i'm pretty sure they've been proven otherwise the buick guy's would'nt still be using them.. also, hase'nt anarkey been running his own kit for 2 years or so.. he got a single turbo and stock fuel.. and just for a reference on a customers drag car(NOT A SUPRA) he's been through 3 top of the line aeromotive fuel pumps in the last year due to them failing..and his car does'nt even require a high amount of fuel pressure like our cars.. so saying one is a band aid fix and the other is the perfect answer is'nt correct.. i'm sure if you find the people with meth kits on here, they love them..just like no one will complain about their 2500.00 fuel system.. different strokes for different folks if i can get the same power out of my car by using a meth kit and not have to spend 2000-2500 for a fuel system or 5-7 dollars a gallon for race gas.. then thats what i will do.. opions are like assholes, everyone has one jay

 

[chevyeater-on-sf]

Someone needs to step up and make a six nozzle methanol kit. I'd antie up the extra $ over a single nozzle.

 

[Simba]

A methanol system however hasn't proven to be able to support a single car at higher power on its own safely over time. The problem here is that you're completely depending on that meth kit to deliver enough of itself to each cylinder on a single jet. This to me isn't as safe.

That, and the general inconveinece of the system are the primary reasons I don't like them.

Having a bigass alcohol tank bolted up somewhere and sucking up precious engine bay space is not fun, nor is being forced to carry gobs of methanol should you wish to go on a road trip or do any kind of long-term (e.g. road course, cannonball) racing.

I call them bandaid systems as they're a less-reliable hack of a solution to a properly built fuel system. It's akin to stuffing a few extra injectors into a throttle body to provide extra fuel, rather than a proper setup using larger individial injectors.

Hackish, and not worth risking an expensive engine to save a few bucks, IMO.

As for there being a "risk" associated with dual fuel pumps in upgraded fuel systems, that's absolute bunk. If they're wired correctly, they'll either both work, or both not work.

 

[Hau]

As for there being a "risk" associated with dual fuel pumps in upgraded fuel systems, that's absolute bunk. If they're wired correctly, they'll either both work, or both not work.

Sure, like there's absolutely no chance a fuel pump can fail or get clogged, or one of the lines inside the tank splits, etc....I didn't know they engineered/manufactured fuel pumps to be 100% failure free forever.

All I'm saying is what will happen when one pump fails? The comment about being able to keep an eye on AFR while at WOT is ludicrous. By the time you see the weird AFRs, your engine probably already detonated from running lean. I'm not suggesting running 30psi on a big single with the stock fuel system and meth is safe and reliable. For all those convinced that spending $2000-2500 on a fuel system upgrade is the only proper way to do it, I'm saying running an upgraded fuel system with dual pumps in the tank has it's own reliability risks. If you want stock reliability, stay stock. I've personally tested my meth injection with my T78 on pump gas at 26 psi. I've seen firsthand what happens when I run out of meth. Once I'm able to hold 30psi, I'll do some testing at that boost level with meth injection and pump gas as well. One of the biggest advantages of the meth injection is that I only use it when I need it. Otherwise I'm just rolling around burning up pump gas only. If you want to be able to turn the boost up on the street, anytime you need to, get meth injection. If you want to be limited to high boost with race gas only, spend $$$ and get the full system and $ race gas. Both systems has it's advantages and disadvantages.

 

[VeilsideTT]

Simba, most of us don't do road-racing or Cannonball so the inconvenience isn't there for us. I guess if you are into road-racing you should spend the cash for a fuel system. I know I would feel inconvenienced if a fast car pulled up next to me and I could only run 18psi because I'm running pump gas...

As for meth being a "less-reliable hack of a solution", I'm not sure if I agree. Please tell us why it is less reliable? Silvino pointed out that there may be an uneven distribution among cylinders and that would be a big concern. If that isn't a valid concern though, and the mixture is fairly even, I just don't see why it is just a band-aid fix. obviously a fuel system and meth would be best but for now I just want to compare fuel systems to meth kits.

 

[turbomx5]

If that isn't a valid concern though, and the mixture is fairly even, I just don't see why it is just a band-aid fix.

You hit the nail on the head. Either setup can be done poorly, or be done well. But you will never get perfect distribution with a fogger. At low power levels, maybe this won't matter. But you also won't get the full potential of the set up you are running.

Matt

 

[quick]

Simba, most of us don't do road-racing or Cannonball so the inconvenience isn't there for us. I guess if you are into road-racing you should spend the cash for a fuel system. I know I would feel inconvenienced if a fast car pulled up next to me and I could only run 18psi because I'm running pump gas...

There's a simple solution -- always run race gas.

You modify an expensive car with expensive parts. Use the right gas.

JMO.

 

[Kuruma]

There's a simple solution -- always run race gas.

You modify an expensive car with expensive parts. Use the right gas.

JMO.

Not everyone has 100+ $$'s to fill up their gas tank every time they go out. I drive my car daily, and I get 13mpg if I'm lucky...