Supra Forums banner

1 - 20 of 53 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Mk3 questions. So I’ve got a 87 mk3. With a 7mgte

current mods- catless exhaust, eagle rods, arp studs torqued to 80ft/lbs, k&n intake pipe.

I was wondering what I can do with a stock ecu. I’m not trying to make a crap ton of power. End goal is 430-450 whp. But I want to do some mods first while I save up for a decent standalone. So I was wondering if anybody could tell me what I could do with a stock ecu. (Also which stand-alone I should go with).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Since you plan to go stand-alone, most of the common mods people do to these cars (such as a Lexus ls400 afm, 550cc injectors, etc.) would be irrelevant since you could throw on bigger and better things. You could go ahead and grab an intercooler kit and a fuel pump until then, though. Or things that won’t effect power such as upgraded oil cooler setup or a catch can.

You can actually squeeze 350-400ish out of the stock ecu if you refer to this thread: Newbie's guide to Modifying your MK3 turbo
 

·
ƒ=1/2π(√k/m)
Joined
·
9,996 Posts
I had a blast back around 2003 with bpu mods on my mkiii. You could consider a downpipe to complement your exhaust. In fact, the most performance improvement I had back then was the downpipe. There’s no question modern stand alones are superior to piggy backs. However, if your goal is as low as you’re saying, then you could slap a VPC on with a PnP harness and call it a day. There are many options. ~$1200 vs $450-500 for a stand alone vs VPC. I’d go ahead and get a fuel pump, injectors, afpr, and a wideband now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
712 Posts
....... you could slap a VPC on with a PnP harness and call it a day. There are many options. ~$1200 vs $450-500 for a stand alone vs VPC. I’d go ahead and get a fuel pump, injectors, afpr, and a wideband now.
this. basically the setup I run, minus the vpc and using the maft-pro in its place (in speed density mode)

you can jack up the stock fuel pressure with the afpr and get a lot out of the stock 440 injectors/ecu combo.

IMHO getting the air flow meter out of there (and not investing 600 in a lex housing +550's) and going speed density really plays nice with the cars stock ecu and its easy to tune.

the map ecu 3 is another route. a piggy back that eliminates the afm, has features that go way beyond basic piggybacks like safc



some reading :

 

·
ƒ=1/2π(√k/m)
Joined
·
9,996 Posts
Ja. Good condition injectors being key.
For what it’s worth, if I could go back in time, I would never have messed with a LEX AFM. Speed density all the way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Sorry sti
I had a blast back around 2003 with bpu mods on my mkiii. You could consider a downpipe to complement your exhaust. In fact, the most performance improvement I had back then was the downpipe. There’s no question modern stand alones are superior to piggy backs. However, if your goal is as low as you’re saying, then you could slap a VPC on with a PnP harness and call it a day. There are many options. ~$1200 vs $450-500 for a stand alone vs VPC. I’d go ahead and get a fuel pump, injectors, afpr, and a wideband now.
Since you plan to go stand-alone, most of the common mods people do to these cars (such as a Lexus ls400 afm, 550cc injectors, etc.) would be irrelevant since you could throw on bigger and better things. You could go ahead and grab an intercooler kit and a fuel pump until then, though. Or things that won’t effect power such as upgraded oil cooler setup or a catch can.

You can actually squeeze 350-400ish out of the stock ecu if you refer to this thread: Newbie's guide to Modifying your MK3 turbo
Since you plan to go stand-alone, most of the common mods people do to these cars (such as a Lexus ls400 afm, 550cc injectors, etc.) would be irrelevant since you could throw on bigger and better things. You could go ahead and grab an intercooler kit and a fuel pump until then, though. Or things that won’t effect power such as upgraded oil cooler setup or a catch can.

You can actually squeeze 350-400ish out of the stock ecu if you refer to this thread: Newbie's guide to Modifying your MK3 turbo
I’m pretty sure I have a down pipe, don’t know the brand ( previous owner bought it)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Yea
Since you plan to go stand-alone, most of the common mods people do to these cars (such as a Lexus ls400 afm, 550cc injectors, etc.) would be irrelevant since you could throw on bigger and better things. You could go ahead and grab an intercooler kit and a fuel pump until then, though. Or things that won’t effect power such as upgraded oil cooler setup or a catch can.

You can actually squeeze 350-400ish out of the stock ecu if you refer to this thread: Newbie's guide to Modifying your MK3 turbo
it’s a titan Motorsports 3” catless downpipe leading to a medalion muffler, and thanks for the help guys
 

·
ƒ=1/2π(√k/m)
Joined
·
9,996 Posts
Educate me. Does that downpipe include the elbow that attaches to the turbine housing of the turbo? Or is it similar to one of those HKS downpipe’s that bolted onto the elbow. A lot of the restriction was in the elbow itself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Educate me. Does that downpipe include the elbow that attaches to the turbine housing of the turbo? Or is it similar to one of those HKS downpipe’s that bolted onto the elbow. A lot of the restriction was in the elbow itself.
Attaches to the turbo housing, leads to a 3” pipe all the way to the muffler. I have an AEM wideband I just haven’t installed it. Also I was wondering if you guys could wire out all the acronyms? Sorry I’m coming from the old school American muscle world haha, not aloud of electrics with carbs. Thank you.
 

·
ƒ=1/2π(√k/m)
Joined
·
9,996 Posts
I got you:

VPC - HKS Vein Pressure Converter (Basically it’s the old school piggyback that allowed the 7M to be run on a map sensor. Eliminates the AFM.)

BPU - Basic Performance Upgrades

AFPR - Adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

LEX AFM - Lexus (V8 engine) air fuel meter that’s approximately 25% physically larger in volume to your stock aluminum AFM housing. When paired with 550cc/min fuel injectors it affectively raises your fuel cutoff.

let me know what other acronyms we threw out. I’ll answer them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I got you:

VPC - HKS Vein Pressure Converter (Basically it’s the old school piggyback that allowed the 7M to be run on a map sensor. Eliminates the AFM.)

BPU - Basic Performance Upgrades

AFPR - Adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

LEX AFM - Lexus (V8 engine) air fuel meter that’s approximately 25% physically larger in volume to your stock aluminum AFM housing. When paired with 550cc/min fuel injectors it affectively raises your fuel cutoff.

let me know what other acronyms we threw out. I’ll answer them.
Awesome thanks buddy, been a big help
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I got you:

VPC - HKS Vein Pressure Converter (Basically it’s the old school piggyback that allowed the 7M to be run on a map sensor. Eliminates the AFM.)

BPU - Basic Performance Upgrades

AFPR - Adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

LEX AFM - Lexus (V8 engine) air fuel meter that’s approximately 25% physically larger in volume to your stock aluminum AFM housing. When paired with 550cc/min fuel injectors it affectively raises your fuel cutoff.

let me know what other acronyms we threw out. I’ll answer them.
Also whats the point of running the VPC that eliminates the need for an AFM? If I’m gonna put a Lexus AFM on? The physical size deference and that’s all? If it’s eliminating the need for an AFM do I need the Lexus AFM?
 

·
ƒ=1/2π(√k/m)
Joined
·
9,996 Posts
Also whats the point of running the VPC that eliminates the need for an AFM? If I’m gonna put a Lexus AFM on? The physical size deference and that’s all? If it’s eliminating the need for an AFM do I need the Lexus AFM?
Yes, the physical size of the AFM can be a restriction, but honestly, imagine this: You’re ripping down the road, full boost, having a grand ol time... then POW! You blow off an intercooler pipe because you’re an idiot and didn’t tighten the clamps properly, or your pipes don’t fit the best... with a VPC you can keep cruising to the next gas station, or your home maybe. With the AFM setup, you’re dead in the water until you reconnect those pipes. Sometimes it’s raining. Sometimes you’d rather not lie on your back in the rain to fix your shit to drive home.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Yes, the physical size of the AFM can be a restriction, but honestly, imagine this: You’re ripping down the road, full boost, having a grand ol time... then POW! You blow off an intercooler pipe because you’re an idiot and didn’t tighten the clamps properly, or your pipes don’t fit the best... with a VPC you can keep cruising to the next gas station, or your home maybe. With the AFM setup, you’re dead in the water until you reconnect those pipes. Sometimes it’s raining. Sometimes you’d rather not lie on your back in the rain to fix your shit to drive home.
Ok that’s good to know haha
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
712 Posts
everyone that has gone BPU and put hard pipes / intercooler / upped the boost has prob done this .....blew a hose off under full boost

the combination of BOOM and (in my case) smoke like you wouldn't believe made me think I blew up. fun stuff


stand alone ecu are the way to go when making big power. but there is also another saying that is true

"nothing matches the stock ecu in terms of street driving and reliability". whats nice about the stock ecu is that its very well understood --- how it behaves / learns and trims the fuel injectors. it plays very nice with many different piggy backs, and different types of piggy backing. a "basic" piggy back method is to take the cars afm signal and alter it. basically telling the cars stock ecu more/less air is coming in. the SAFC is the most popular device to do that. from the factory the 7mgte like to run really rich, like 10:1 under boost. with a piggy back you can tell the ecu "less air is coming in" and push that to 11:1 and do two things. 1- get more power and 2- raise the amount of boost before you hit fuel cut

example- full stock setup. you may hit fuel cut (ecu say8ing too much air coming in and killing engine) around 10-11 psi. your engine would be pig rich, 10:1 for sure

example 2- piggy back pulling 10% of air signal at WOT. in this case you may not hit fuel cut until 12-13 psi and your engine would be running maybe 11:1.

the car setup in example 2 would feel much faster because being in tune is where power is made


of course this is very basic over generalized examples...but you prob get the point


a more advance piggy back is actually a computer that generates the airflow signal...without the need of the actual physical air flow sensor. these better piggy backs use a map sensor and air intake sensor (their own brand new sensors you install) to calculate what the cars afm would have read. this type of device gives you way way more control -- and in my experience works really good with the stock ecu.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
I have an ECUMASTER DET3 with the 4 bar internal map sensor I was going to use on my rebuild but im going to go with a emu classic. I was going to put it on ebay but if you're interested maybe we could make a deal. The DET3 allows the conversion to Speed density, batch fire ignition if you remove the stock multiplex system. And allows semi-sequential fuel injection, launch control, data logging. It does most of what a stand alone does. I figured for my case why put over $2k into the motor and not have every option available to me as far as tuning goes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,360 Posts
forgo the alphabet soup of piggy back on a stock 7MGTE TCCS. low load low rpm detonation is why based on what toyota programmed the TCCS. This is compounded by doing the Lex/550 "upgrade".

You either go standalone or leave alone without any piggybacks.
If you can get access to a set of detcans or knock box. listen and log low rpm low load. The stock timing is super aggressive for anything short of 100 octane. The way the TCCS was programmed, use the most aggressive timing and then pull timing on knock which is INSANE.

otherwise become another statistic of 7m bhg.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
712 Posts
forgo the alphabet soup of piggy back on a stock 7MGTE TCCS. low load low rpm detonation is why based on what toyota programmed the TCCS. This is compounded by doing the Lex/550 "upgrade".
figgie what RPM range / manifold pressures are you talking about ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
Save your money and buy a standalone engine computer. While you're saving for this you can begin studying tuning so that when you get it you don't have to spend money with a "tun0r" in your area. Last time I told someone this the people on this forum berated me for suggesting that someone should learn how to tune their own car. Don't listen to people that want you to spend your money on some black magic shit they don't understand and don't care to try to understand. They're not in a position to speak authoritatively about tuning since their method of tuning involves taking their car to someone else.

My recommendations for stand alone ecu's include:

*Don't fuck with AEM anything period the end.
*Haltech is nice.
*Motec is nice (but a bit pricier)
*ProEFI is nice.
*EMU Black is nice.

Also, do not listen to anyone suggesting that you buy anything that is a piggyback. They, also, do not understand tuning... and don't let them determine what your budget is or what fits for YOUR car. A piggy back is a waste of your money and your tune will never be perfect or even close to perfect with a piggy back. (in before the naysayers come talk about how their car "hauled ass" on a vpc/safc/etc/pukeeeeee). If you have money burning a hole in your pocket then use it on things for your car that will make it live a long life.

Is your suspension in good shape?
What about your bushings/motor mounts?
Has the rear diff on your car been serviced recently?
Have you changed the gear oil on your transmission?
Are your ball joints and tie rods in new or great shape?
What condition are your tires in?
Do you have a leaky steering rack/rear main/front main/cam seal/vc gasket to address?

Edit: don't listen to anyone suggesting that you cannot learn how to tune or that it is over your head. They're basically telling you that you're not intelligent enough to grasp rather simple concepts. Tuning is way easier than the "tuner bois" think it is.

The reason piggy backs are garbage is because all they do is alter the airflow signal. If your timing table is referenced off your airflow signal, you have just freddy fuzzpuckered your timing for whatever load range you're in..... REGARDLESS of if your "afr is right" for the larger injectors you're running. A piggy back offers NO way to advance your ignition timing, which is necessary in almost any tuning scenario. It can ONLY retard timing. There is no fix for this in any piggy back since it is intercepting and modifying signals that are being sent to the factory ecu. Basically it's a liar, and most people don't like liars. It's not even a good liar since it's unable to tell a good lie about ignition timing. What you will end up with on a piggy back is a motor that is slowly (or in some cases quickly) roasting itself because it's being run outside of parameters that are considered acceptable for longevity.
 
1 - 20 of 53 Posts
Top