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According to this thread, I must have been hallucinating from 2002-2006ish when my '87 Turbo was making ~400whp/430wtq on 62-1 CT26 upgrade, a very early divorced downpipe, and VPC/SAFC/550's/TT pump.

Oh well.
 

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According to this thread, I must have been hallucinating from 2002-2006ish when my '87 Turbo was making ~400whp/430wtq on 62-1 CT26 upgrade, a very early divorced downpipe, and VPC/SAFC/550's/TT pump.

Oh well.
Wreckless,

no one said anything about not making the power. Shit, I remember Vinny Ten doing the alphabet soup setup running mid 9's at the very beginning when he was racing.
Knowing what we know today with a full unfettered, uninterrupted view to the entirety of the 7m TCCS, to say that it is safe or reliable when the data programming shows otherwise is a huge disservice.

We know for a fact that the OEM ignition timing is on the the far right of lunacy (and honestly no business in a street car much less anything short of running c12 race gas all the time see the picture I posted), add to that the strategy that Toyota chose which is to run stupid aggressive ignition timing and then pull the timing out when knock happens and that is a recipe of when will the 7m bhg (adding to that the CPS jitter due to where crank position is read, the lackadaisical torque of the OEM head bolts etc) at elevated power above OEM and this is a recipe for failure. Of course the TCCS was supposed to "learn" that knock window but every time the TCCS was reset, the entire TCCS was reset hence why for a bit after, there was more power/detonation caused as the TCCS tried to adjust everything again. This strategy works fine for OEM power but anything above that, and that strategy should not be relied for anything except where NOT to put ignition timing.
 

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Can either of you guys talk about VVTI tuning in a high level? I've tuned VTEC turbo on Hondas before (that I owned, don't worry, I'm not a Honda guy we just saved a turbo civic from being donated for free).... Anyway, what I understood to be correct was to do a dyno pull with vtec off and then with vtec on and then a couple hundred RPM prior to the crossover point on the dyno graphs (overlayed) would be the good spot to activate vtec for that particular engine/parts combination.......

But how should it be done for VVTI? That is still something I didn't mess with in my ProEFI on my Lexus because I assumed that Larry's tune from Sound Performance that was provided would already have this "taken care of". Knowing what I know about tuning though, I highly doubt the basemap numbers in there were good for my car's setup, so what method do the "pro tuners" use to tune VVTI?
Similar, you would tune the VVTi/VTC in increments of 10 degrees.
On the Honda VTC, in the tuning software you would tune 0 degrees non-VTEC (VTEC activated very high RPM). Do 10, 20, etc.
Then tune them with VTEC activated very low.
Once all the VTC maps are done, set VTEC activation lower like you said, and you're good to go.
Toyota VVTi is the same idea, just don't have to do it twice, so it takes half the time.
 

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Depends on ignition timing and how much (or little) overlap your cams have.
Good point, suppose there's a reason it's called "dynamic" compression. :)

Can either of you guys talk about VVTI tuning in a high level? I've tuned VTEC turbo on Hondas before (that I owned, don't worry, I'm not a Honda guy we just saved a turbo civic from being donated for free).... Anyway, what I understood to be correct was to do a dyno pull with vtec off and then with vtec on and then a couple hundred RPM prior to the crossover point on the dyno graphs (overlayed) would be the good spot to activate vtec for that particular engine/parts combination.......
Flux, I have not had the opportunity to tinker with VVTI yet, although I have a spare head waiting on the budget to refresh and motivation to disable my otherwise good running car, so... we'll get there.

I'm assuming you understand the reason for VVTI, but for those that are unfamiliar, it's to give the engine the widest possible torque powerband. This can be done by degreeing the camshafts, but with fixed camshaft timing, you can only move the meat of the powerband to the left or to the right of what would be considered normal for the engine. In practice, an engine setup for low end torque will suffer losses up top, and an engine setup for top end power will suffer a lack of bottom end power.

Now, imagine a camshaft that can phase itself according to the needs of the engine. It would make a lot of low end torque, and move the camshaft itself as the rpm's increase, all the while giving you the most possible torque at each point through the powerband. Someone please correct me if I am misunderstanding the concept.

Ok, so moving on to how I'd personally tune it:

-Start down low, basically from about 1200 rpm, and advance the timing until I start to notice diminishing returns, then back it off a couple degrees for safety. I'd then do this for every few hundred rpm points throughout my tune. Although... it now occurs to me that changing the timing tables and changing the cam phasing are going to be two totally separate settings in my MS3. Leave the base timing alone, and advance the cam phasing until I see diminishing returns?

The more you learn, the less you know, right? :p I've got a lot of reading to do before I start tinkering with that, it seems.
 

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it now occurs to me that changing the timing tables and changing the cam phasing are going to be two totally separate settings in my MS3. Leave the base timing alone, and advance the cam phasing until I see diminishing returns?
No, lock the cam at 0 degrees of offset (full retard), tune the full RPM range at that lobe offset. Do the same for 10, 20, etc. to full advance degrees offset. Then overlay all of the dyno graphs, and build out the composite tune open loop map with the correct cam phase table accounting for a little advance real world timing for the cam to actually physically move to the programmed location.
 

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Wreckless,

no one said anything about not making the power. Shit, I remember Vinny Ten doing the alphabet soup setup running mid 9's at the very beginning when he was racing.
Knowing what we know today with a full unfettered, uninterrupted view to the entirety of the 7m TCCS, to say that it is safe or reliable when the data programming shows otherwise is a huge disservice.

We know for a fact that the OEM ignition timing is on the the far right of lunacy (and honestly no business in a street car much less anything short of running c12 race gas all the time see the picture I posted), add to that the strategy that Toyota chose which is to run stupid aggressive ignition timing and then pull the timing out when knock happens and that is a recipe of when will the 7m bhg (adding to that the CPS jitter due to where crank position is read, the lackadaisical torque of the OEM head bolts etc) at elevated power above OEM and this is a recipe for failure. Of course the TCCS was supposed to "learn" that knock window but every time the TCCS was reset, the entire TCCS was reset hence why for a bit after, there was more power/detonation caused as the TCCS tried to adjust everything again. This strategy works fine for OEM power but anything above that, and that strategy should not be relied for anything except where NOT to put ignition timing.
Without debating the obviously bad timing map and strategy and hardware-based limitations of the TCCS:

I put almost 30k miles on that setup as described without incident, on pump premium and with the CPS set at 10* BTDC per TSRM spec. The knock sensors were rewired using RG6 cable via the OG SOGI method. Oil used was Mobil 1 15w50, the old 'red cap' formula.

It was a semi-daily driver. I did hurt the motor at the drag strip by cranking up the old school Profec B I had to absolute max and doing the SOGI 'trick' of advancing the CPS ~4* trying to break into the 12's on Trick 101 octane. I would reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery every time I filled up with 101 to get the most HP out of the fuel. Boost would spike to ~23psi and fall to about 19psi by redline and it ran fantastic through 2nd, but I felt it hiccup around 4500rpm in 3rd and knew something got hurt.

IIRC I was trapping around 112-114mph depending on the weather and traction was a bitch out of the hole on the typically crappy prep and shit tires of the day, etc. So the last year I had that car up, #5 was down about 20psi and #6 about 25psi. But it still made power, got normal gas mileage, and didn't push the dipstick out or otherwise show signs of excessive loss of compression. I quit driving and partially parted out the car in 2006 after I bought my first MK4.

I contend, and lived, and I could demonstrate with another MK3 in good condition that one could make ~400whp+ on old school piggybacks and the results will be reliable enough to last at least 4 years and ~30k miles.
Other folks like Eric Varah pushed those sorts of piggyback combos through the 550-600whp range.

Yes, the gas mileage sucks with those sorts of combos because of the crappy injectors of the day.

No, it's absolutely not as good as a modern standalone.

But engines held together long enough to last multiple driving seasons. Back then, though, anything over 500whp was regarded as race-gas-only territory but race gas used to cost $3 a gallon so it wasn't that big of a deal.

I understand your oversimplification to that TCCS = Trash conclusion, in light of today's twitter-sized attention span from the average Yeeting fuckhead that just bought a MK3 these days.
But that does not preclude saying that yes, the old ways worked, but they took diligence and paying attention like a motherfucker - and mistakes were destructive and costly. Modern options offer safety nets that didn't exist back then, and those safety features are damn nice, but race gas was a lot cheaper back then.

Overall, new owners may best be advised that nothing, absolutely nothing in a MK3 or MK4 is as simple as installing a phone app, and if they're expect that, get a fucking 5th gen Camaro instead.
 

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........

I contend, and lived, and I could demonstrate with another MK3 in good condition that one could make ~400whp+ on old school piggybacks and the results will be reliable enough to last at least 4 years and ~30k miles.
......
this

literally I am half way there in your same test lol

albeit with 440's and high rail pressure, and maft-pro sd, and slightly smaller 56trim 11 blade turbo

trapping 110.... trying to get a 60' that does not blow so I can hit 12's

15 years later same shit is still fun on the street.

I agree you have to be in tune with your car and on top of it so you dont blow. and run a mix of that sweet smelling race gas.

this summer I will make some diy det cans and try advancing the timing / ecu reset trick. not sure a reset will help me though because car always has around 100 octane in its tank. but the timing, worth a cautious try on a cool day. if I blow it up I can always do a jz swap or put one of my 2 spare 7m's in
 

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Without debating the obviously bad timing map and strategy and hardware-based limitations of the TCCS:

I put almost 30k miles on that setup as described without incident, on pump premium and with the CPS set at 10* BTDC per TSRM spec. The knock sensors were rewired using RG6 cable via the OG SOGI method. Oil used was Mobil 1 15w50, the old 'red cap' formula.

It was a semi-daily driver. I did hurt the motor at the drag strip by cranking up the old school Profec B I had to absolute max and doing the SOGI 'trick' of advancing the CPS ~4* trying to break into the 12's on Trick 101 octane. I would reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery every time I filled up with 101 to get the most HP out of the fuel. Boost would spike to ~23psi and fall to about 19psi by redline and it ran fantastic through 2nd, but I felt it hiccup around 4500rpm in 3rd and knew something got hurt.

IIRC I was trapping around 112-114mph depending on the weather and traction was a bitch out of the hole on the typically crappy prep and shit tires of the day, etc. So the last year I had that car up, #5 was down about 20psi and #6 about 25psi. But it still made power, got normal gas mileage, and didn't push the dipstick out or otherwise show signs of excessive loss of compression. I quit driving and partially parted out the car in 2006 after I bought my first MK4.

I contend, and lived, and I could demonstrate with another MK3 in good condition that one could make ~400whp+ on old school piggybacks and the results will be reliable enough to last at least 4 years and ~30k miles.
Other folks like Eric Varah pushed those sorts of piggyback combos through the 550-600whp range.

Yes, the gas mileage sucks with those sorts of combos because of the crappy injectors of the day.

No, it's absolutely not as good as a modern standalone.

But engines held together long enough to last multiple driving seasons. Back then, though, anything over 500whp was regarded as race-gas-only territory but race gas used to cost $3 a gallon so it wasn't that big of a deal.

I understand your oversimplification to that TCCS = Trash conclusion, in light of today's twitter-sized attention span from the average Yeeting fuckhead that just bought a MK3 these days.
But that does not preclude saying that yes, the old ways worked, but they took diligence and paying attention like a motherfucker - and mistakes were destructive and costly. Modern options offer safety nets that didn't exist back then, and those safety features are damn nice, but race gas was a lot cheaper back then.

Overall, new owners may best be advised that nothing, absolutely nothing in a MK3 or MK4 is as simple as installing a phone app, and if they're expect that, get a fucking 5th gen Camaro instead.
Funny you mention twitter, i have never used it. lol

I don't think the TCCS is trash. It becomes rather limited and a ticking time bomb above stock power levels. Throw in wear and tear of the belts, gear lashing of the CPS to exahust cam and mileage and you have a propensity to have bad things happen faster. Looking at the code. it was fairly advanced for it's time. Only if they could save the knock learned information between diagnostic resets or battery disconnect, the issue would not be as bad. Something all cars today do well unless there is a specific reset code sent to the EMS.

fyi,

I was running around with a Greddy TD06 but no lexus AF/550 combo. lasted 224k miles and close to 10 years at that level. I drove roughly about 20,000 miles per year at that time, through snow in South Dakota and Minnesota, hurricanes and torrential rains in Miami. The supra was my only way to get around. I would have loved more power but i knew that was the limit of the party if i wanted it to last years (and at that time, it HAD to last years).

mistakes still grenade motors even with a new EMS installed. All it takes is a couple detonation events to fry a piston/gasket and it is game over.
Funny thing, I mentioned it and now you did also was the "battery reset" trick. I alluded to that as i recall it did produce more power but that was the unfiltered access to the ignition tables i posted until it learned the knock values.

honestly on the new cars (i have been nose deep in BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi and their systems), those things are multiple computers each verifying the others information. essentially babysitter Mark XX. torque requests and torque reduction, knock control and ionization checks, tooth count of each individual wheel vs calculated against the drive shaft, 3d g sensors. it is absurd. Any person not versed in computers AND mechanics would have a cardiac.
 

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CAN is a self induced headache. People that have no idea how an engine works, but design the OS to run one, on a tiered network.
It's a lesson if nothing else.
I don't think CAN is all that bad.
same for Flexray, LIN, MOST etc. it is just another protocol for all these nannies to compare notes and keep johnny dumbass from wrapping the car around a pole without inputting the magic key sequence to disable all the nannies.

anyway, i digress. we have gotten way off topic now. lol
 

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No, lock the cam at 0 degrees of offset (full retard), tune the full RPM range at that lobe offset. Do the same for 10, 20, etc. to full advance degrees offset. Then overlay all of the dyno graphs, and build out the composite tune open loop map with the correct cam phase table accounting for a little advance real world timing for the cam to actually physically move to the programmed location.
That approach makes more sense, I appreciate it. I dunno if I'll ever be tuning the car myself, but there is a dyno at our local college, and I get along well with the folks up there. Car is a bit of a favorite there too, so... perhaps?

In good time. :)

Overall, new owners may best be advised that nothing, absolutely nothing in a MK3 or MK4 is as simple as installing a phone app, and if they're expect that, get a fucking 5th gen Camaro instead.
I'd say Jeff, that if a phone app is your expectation for difficulty, you should probably not be modifying or tinkering with cars at all, you're liable to hurt someone or something.

One thing forums are good for now is unfettered discussion like this.
Long live the forums! For what it's worth, they've always been good for unfettered discussion. :)
 

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Social media has ruined car discussions and car groups in general IMO. You talk about something then it scrolls off the screen into oblivion just to become a data point that the social media platform now "owns" and can run metrics on. One day they'll scrape all discussions with an algorithm and publish books/white papers about things that people talked about after the AI determines what the best way to present the "most honest/true" information is given the data set it's working out of..... oh.... and people will pay money for it.

Anyway, that's a tangent, and it's early on Monday.... don't want to start in on my blood pressure this week yet.
 
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