[Bob Tompkins]

Guys my motor consists of the following components and I am hoping to drop in some HKS 272's in the next few weeks. I want to rev the motor to somewhere around 7800rpm and probably go to a .81 a/r on my 67 to make a lil more top end then I have now.

- CP .020 forged pistons, rings and wrist pins
- New stock rods
- Port matched and polished head
- Ferrera 1mm oversized intake and exhaust valves
- Crower titanium springs and retainers
- Balanced, decked, etc.
- All gaskets replace with new Toyota gasket kit
- ARP fasteners

Do you think my valvetrain / motor will handle the RPM without much stress? Do these things lope much?

Thanks,
Bob

PS. Does any one have an online resource for the cam installation procedures. I am hoping that I wont have to re shim since the motor is very fresh and from my reading the HKS bumpsticks do not usually need shims if the sotck cams where already in spec?

 

[supradupaflyguy]

you should easily be able to rev your motor easily into the 8K+ range, anything over than i would say upgrade to teh dual springs, like the ferreas, but with those cams you wont gain anything over 7500rpm or so with those cams. cam install is pretty simple, pull the valve comers off, loosen the cam gears, loosen the timing belt tensioner, take the timing belt off the gears, take the gears off, take the gear guard plate (behind the gears) off, EQUALLY loosen ALL the caps on one side at a time starting on the ends and working your way to the middle until they are all loose then gently remove the cams without scratching anything. then lube up the new cams and set them in the bores, put all the caps on tightening them EQUALLY a little bit at a time starting in the CENTER and moving your way out, should take you at least 10 times over each cap to tighten it down so you avoid warping the cam and also binding. break out the feeler gauges and check your clearances, should be about .0006-.0012" on the intake side and about .0010-.0016 or so on the exhaust side. my hks 280s were all in spec when i did them install but always check to be sure. if in spec, reinstall everything in reverse pattern (same technique on tensioner as on cams, a little on each side at a time and you can avoid the pin), if not in spec you need to write down the shims that are out of spec and remove the cams and take out the buckets, measure them with a micrometer and add/subtract the numbers til you get the right thickness for proper clearance, then go to the dealer or give titan a call. when you reinstall the timing belt, set the engine at 0 TDC and make sure the 2 marks on the cam gears are lined up with the notches on the cam guard plate, then put tension on the proper tension side of the timing belt and place the belt over the cam gears again with tension on the tension side, install the tensioner and check that all the timing marks still line up, it may take a few tries the first time you do it. if you have any other questions just pm me. also, did you have the shop check the piston to valve clearance? just in case you are worried if it is still an interference motor or not with the 272s

 

[Bob Tompkins]

Thanks for the reply!

I bought this car with the built motor so I am not sure on the piston to valve clearance issue with the 272's and the CP pistons. I have done valve seals on 2 Mkiv's before but that was a few years ago and we did not check the clearances on them at the time.

I have access to a shop full of ASE master tech's and a lifts, Hopefully we can do this in one evening if I do not have to order shims.

Thanks Again,
Bob

 

[Chucky Doll]

FYI - 272's are non-interference cam's. As long as your head was not milled down a good chunk then you're fine. WIth the crower components in the head I would rev to 8200-8300 without hesitating.

Also every car is different. I know for my car I did not have to replace any of the shims when my 272's went in. It's rare but entirely possible that you can drop them right in. Spec them out to insure this is the only time the valve covers will be off.

Good luck. You'll love the way the car pulls to redline with those cams! :coold:

 

[mkivbren]

Bob, I think you will be happy with these cams, they sound optimal for your setup. You will have no problem with your desired rpm with your setup. There is a specific tightening / loosening procedure in the manual and I recommend following that verbatim - cams have snapped in the past when people disregard the factory procedure.

with the cp pistons and being decked as supradupra said, investigate to see if you are interference.

 

[Bob Tompkins]

I do not believe that the head was decked all that much if at all, We will definatly turn it over by hand slowly just to make sure nothing is touching before firing it off.

I found the resource for the cam install since I no longer have a manual so i will be good to go.

Thanks Guys! Time to order some cam gears from Dusty too

Bob

 

[Boost Junkie]

That ain't even REMOTELY close to the correct procedure for installing cams. Get a look at the FSM if you want to do it right. It involves tightening certain cap bolts to a certain spec, rotating the cam 120 degrees, loosening some bolts, tightening others, rotaing the cam another 120 degrees, etc, etc, etc, until you've done about 256 torqueing steps.

you should easily be able to rev your motor easily into the 8K+ range, anything over than i would say upgrade to teh dual springs, like the ferreas, but with those cams you wont gain anything over 7500rpm or so with those cams. cam install is pretty simple, pull the valve comers off, loosen the cam gears, loosen the timing belt tensioner, take the timing belt off the gears, take the gears off, take the gear guard plate (behind the gears) off, EQUALLY loosen ALL the caps on one side at a time starting on the ends and working your way to the middle until they are all loose then gently remove the cams without scratching anything. then lube up the new cams and set them in the bores, put all the caps on tightening them EQUALLY a little bit at a time starting in the CENTER and moving your way out, should take you at least 10 times over each cap to tighten it down so you avoid warping the cam and also binding. break out the feeler gauges and check your clearances, should be about .0006-.0012" on the intake side and about .0010-.0016 or so on the exhaust side. my hks 280s were all in spec when i did them install but always check to be sure. if in spec, reinstall everything in reverse pattern (same technique on tensioner as on cams, a little on each side at a time and you can avoid the pin), if not in spec you need to write down the shims that are out of spec and remove the cams and take out the buckets, measure them with a micrometer and add/subtract the numbers til you get the right thickness for proper clearance, then go to the dealer or give titan a call. when you reinstall the timing belt, set the engine at 0 TDC and make sure the 2 marks on the cam gears are lined up with the notches on the cam guard plate, then put tension on the proper tension side of the timing belt and place the belt over the cam gears again with tension on the tension side, install the tensioner and check that all the timing marks still line up, it may take a few tries the first time you do it. if you have any other questions just pm me. also, did you have the shop check the piston to valve clearance? just in case you are worried if it is still an interference motor or not with the 272s

 

[Bob Tompkins]

I plan on useing this below along with checking the clearances (still need to find a resource for the clearance checking procedure though)

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193026&highlight=cam+installation

Bob

 

[Boost Junkie]

I plan on useing this below along with checking the clearances (still need to find a resource for the clearance checking procedure though)

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193026&highlight=cam+installation

Bob

The FSM instructions are probably on mkiv.com. Checking valve lash is pretty straight-forward -- just get the lobes on their base circle and measure clearance with a feeler gauge.

I recommend measuring and writing down (on a chart) all of the clearances on the stock cams before you remove them. Then remove the stock cams and note the number/thickness of the shims on each valve (may still be stamped on the underside, but I measured mine with a caliper). Then install the new cams and measure the clearance. For any that are out of spec, calcualte the thickness of the shim that you need based upon the difference between the original shim and the measured lash. Then refer to the chart in the FSM for the part number of the shim that you need to buy for that valve.

 

[supradupaflyguy]

boost junkie, if you can honestly tell me from EXPERIENCE that my procedure "aint even remotely close" and is an improper procedure that will cause damage to the engine, please speak up! i understand there are TOYOTA PROCEDURES, however if you want i can explain to you the actual "engineering" that went into their procedures and explain exactlly why it aint gonna make a difference turning the cams and doing a specific cap at a time a certain amount... how many cams have you installed?

 

[Boost Junkie]

I've probably installed about 20-30 cams in my 30+ years of doing all my own mechanic work on the 30+ vehicles I've owned and building my own engines. More importantly, I've never had an assembly- or install-related problem with any engine I've built, any cam I've installed, or for the most part, any modification I've ever done. But, I'm sure you know more than Toyota does about how to install a cam in one of their engines. After all, they only knew enough to design and mass produce, at an affordable price, a 180 ci engine that is capable of 400 HP/liter. They're obviously a bunch of dumbasses who should come to supraforums to learn some actual "engineering" and how not to waste a valuable 20 minutes on an unnecessary install procedure. Like I said in the other thread -- it's up to the poster -- if shade-tree style is good enough for him, slap in the cams, tighten all the bolts with a pair of pliers, and hit the road.

boost junkie, if you can honestly tell me from EXPERIENCE that my procedure "aint even remotely close" and is an improper procedure that will cause damage to the engine, please speak up! i understand there are TOYOTA PROCEDURES, however if you want i can explain to you the actual "engineering" that went into their procedures and explain exactlly why it aint gonna make a difference turning the cams and doing a specific cap at a time a certain amount... how many cams have you installed?

 

[Boost Junkie]

Check out this thread.
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125875&highlight=broken+cam
In addition to the comments here from people who have experience in this area, I've heard of a few such cases, and a few where the owner was pretty sure that the cams were not installed according to FSM procedure. That's not at all to say that your car WILL break if it's just slapped in, or that it WILL NOT break if installed according to procedure, but I've seen enough to make me believe that the cams are probably running in more of a bind than they might otherwise have to if the procedure isn't followed. To each his own, though. It's not my money.

 

[supradupaflyguy]

since you are so mechanically inclined then you know why parts break, you know how a pressure plate is warped, or a head gasket doesnt seal, or a cam breaks/binds.... its because caps/bolts/nuts whatever are not tightened uniformly, that is THE most important thing in installing, sure you could probablly tighten down the center cap on the cam and pull it down but it will come out as a U, you try to turn the engine over and it wont turn cuz the cam is all bent out of shape... the reason the TSRM tells you to turn the cams is so that when you are tightening each cap the lobes are faced in such a way that they are not contacting the buckets closest to the lobe to ease in tightening, but in my personal experience i have found that this actually hurts you because rather putting the lobe (we will call this the load) closest to the tightening point, it is putting the load further away giving the load leverage.... is it easier to bend a 2" long pipe or a 2' long piece of pipe. i never said my "procedure" is better or more correct than toyotas, but you cant say that i "aint even remotely close" to the proper procedure. this has nothing to do with me knowing more than toyota or me teaching them engineering, i wont even bring up the fact that yamaha actually had a huge part in designing the engine, thats beside the point. the point is while you can read the "proper" way to do it all you want, you may never understand why procedures are what they are, that is what i do in anything i am doing. sure its a good idea to spin the cams some while you install them to be sure they are not binding or anything, i will agree with you, im sorry i did not mention that, but turning them by degrees and tightening specific caps at a time for specific amount of bolt rotations is a little much

 

[Bob Tompkins]

I do things by the book guys. I dont DO ANYTHING half ass, my balance in my checking account can support my claim

LOL

Bob

 

[supradupaflyguy]

it isnt half assing it, it is using a different method, my method works, choose whichever one you feel is better. sorry for not tyoing more but im not sober rite now.

 

[Boost Junkie]

since you are so mechanically inclined then you know why parts break, you know how a pressure plate is warped, or a head gasket doesnt seal, or a cam breaks/binds.... its because caps/bolts/nuts whatever are not tightened uniformly, that is THE most important thing in installing, sure you could probablly tighten down the center cap on the cam and pull it down but it will come out as a U, you try to turn the engine over and it wont turn cuz the cam is all bent out of shape... the reason the TSRM tells you to turn the cams is so that when you are tightening each cap the lobes are faced in such a way that they are not contacting the buckets closest to the lobe to ease in tightening, but in my personal experience i have found that this actually hurts you because rather putting the lobe (we will call this the load) closest to the tightening point, it is putting the load further away giving the load leverage.... is it easier to bend a 2" long pipe or a 2' long piece of pipe. i never said my "procedure" is better or more correct than toyotas, but you cant say that i "aint even remotely close" to the proper procedure. this has nothing to do with me knowing more than toyota or me teaching them engineering, i wont even bring up the fact that yamaha actually had a huge part in designing the engine, thats beside the point. the point is while you can read the "proper" way to do it all you want, you may never understand why procedures are what they are, that is what i do in anything i am doing. sure its a good idea to spin the cams some while you install them to be sure they are not binding or anything, i will agree with you, im sorry i did not mention that, but turning them by degrees and tightening specific caps at a time for specific amount of bolt rotations is a little much

I'm not going to waste time arguing with you any further and pointing out your various irrelevent points. Perhaps some here are convinced that you know what you're talking about, or perhaps they are just looking for someone to agree with them that half-ass shortcuts and keyboard engineers second-guesing Toyota are the best way to do everything. If so, they are free to follow the slap-em-in-and-tighten-them-down-evenly advice. And they can also entertain themselves reading all the "Whut's wrong wit mah caar???" threads that result from various half-assing by shops and individuals who either don't know what their doing, or don't take the time to do it right. But for me, your posts don't convince me in the slightest that you have a god's level of engineering knowledge like you seem to claim.

I'm out of this one.

 

[KenHenderson]

Bob,

Boost Junkie's advice is rock solid. The FSM is the only way to go when installing cams......and virtually everything else having to do with our cars.

Ken.

 

[Bob Tompkins]

I have done two sets of cams r+r on a 2jz while doing valve seals. This one will be by the book just as the other where. I do appreciate EVERYONES input on the subject.

Thanks Again,
Bob

PS. If anyone can scan the pages of the FSM for adjusting the valves I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[drift tt 23]

i went strickly by the shop manual when i put in my 264's yesterday. my head was milled 10 thousands and the block is bored .40 over. every thing cleared ok.

i must say go by the book each step to sllep well at night knowing it is done right the first time. i wonder how high i can safely rev my motor with a similiar setup as yours? i guessed it would be safe at a peak of 8k with the aem.

 

[Bob Tompkins]

Started the 272 install this evening after work, everything went VERY well. The stock cams are out and I left my assy lube at work so I did not put the 272's back in it just yet.

I had to remove alot of other stuff as well so it took some time (alot of parts going to the powder coater). I will drop the 272's in and check the valve clearance tommorro night. It should be running by sometime this weekend I hope. My powder coater is going to turn my stuff around in 2 to 3 days.

Bob <<--- loves playing Supra tech!!!