[kaiwang]

I notice that a lot of people on this board say that the Supra TT with suspension mods can handle just as well as an S2000, 911, M3 (fill in the blank here)?

What do you really mean by that?

The stock Supra TT already pulls about the same amount of G’s and have similar slalom numbers as the S2000, 911, M3, etc.

But driving a Stock Supra TT I don’t get the same feedback, instant response and road feel as I do with cars like the S2000. The Supra seem to also lean a lot more than the S2000 on quick transitions.

With suspension Mods (i.e. a TRD suspension kit) can I get the same road feel, feedback, instant response and lack of lean as I do with the S2000?

Can any of you MKIV owners comment on this?

Reason I’m asking is because I’m looking to get a MKIV this winter ( I’m getting the HP bug again.)

Thanks!

 

[fiore36]

well i just switched from a 99 M3 with some suspension mods to a 94 MKIV TT. i don't have any seat time in my supra yet, so i can't really compare and contrast, but you also have to understand that weight is a factor also, the supra weighs, what 3600? the S2000 is like 2900, my M3 weighed in at 3220, weight is a big factor in quick transitions, you can't throw a supra around quite like the M3 or s2000. now i am comparing stock to stock, so don't anyone get piped up. i dont know about the s2000, but the M3 and 911 have just about perfect weight balance, which helps hugely in handling, another reason why the heavy M5 handles so good. and since most supras have a targa, they won't be as structurally sound as a 2dr coupe m3 say.

 

[SUPRAT]

That's what hardtop is for. hardtops have been known for pulling 1G+ lateral acceleration stock. No M3 is doing that stock. Feel is no subsitute for capbability. Driver cability also matters more.
Throw on some coilovers and get the widest tires you can fit under the car. You will not be dissapointed. I will guarantee that. Make sure you get the best tires too. When toyota switched the michelin pilots to bridgestone in 95', the lateral acceleration dropped from .98G to .95G. 0-60 went from 4.9 to 5.1. and 60-0 braking went from 109ft to 112ft. Tires make a huge difference. Heard nothing but good from BFG G-Force KD's.

Benjamin S.
no flames intended

 

[SUPRAT]

BTW, Hardtops have weighed in at 3100lbs w/o driver and full fuel.

 

[Ranger498]

to add the supra is one of the best handeling sports cars out !

well i also guess droping it 1 to 1 1/2 " with adjusable shocks would help too! and some better sway bars!

 

[Frankenstein]

Take off the tires and drive on the rims

 

[SUPRAT]

well i just switched from a 99 M3 with some suspension mods to a 94 MKIV TT. i don't have any seat time in my supra yet, so i can't really compare and contrast, but you also have to understand that weight is a factor also, the supra weighs, what 3600? the S2000 is like 2900, my M3 weighed in at 3220, weight is a big factor in quick transitions, you can't throw a supra around quite like the M3 or s2000. now i am comparing stock to stock, so don't anyone get piped up. i dont know about the s2000, but the M3 and 911 have just about perfect weight balance, which helps hugely in handling, another reason why the heavy M5 handles so good. and since most supras have a targa, they won't be as structurally sound as a 2dr coupe m3 say.

Wrong. old M3's have 50/50, new ones have 51/49. 911 is far from 50/50. Rear mounted engine? remember? 40/60-39/61 (man-auto) this is for 01' 911 coupe. S2000 has 49/51 wt/dist. Supra's wt/dist. is 53/47. Slight front weight bias makes the supra more tossable in corners. You can't drive very well can you?(no flames please-just stating) Supra is more tossable than the M3 or S2K. You are contradicting what you are saying. First, you say the supra is heavy and not as tossable, then saying a long wheel base super heavy M5 handles good despite it's weight. You make it seem like a M5 could take a SupraTT on a road course? No, I am sure you couldn't be that ignorant. Supra is not look all and be all, but give it credit where it is needed. I will give you numerous mags comparing M3 with Supra TT, and I can tell you not one of them the M3 was faster or handled, or braked better. Driver factor must be the reason for this post. I have a mag where Supra is compared directly with a 911T just ask and I'll give you the link.

 

[fiore36]

whoa, easy man, i never said i was an expert.i was just goin off of the top of my head, so what if i was wrong, never said it was written in stone. you don't have to get so defensive about the supra, i wasn't knocking it. and why do you have to say i can't drive, just because i make a few errors. man take it easy,now correct me if i am wrong, but its just a forum where we are ALL trying to learn from and be open to everybody's opinion, right?and calling me ignorant, come on man, you have to go there? loosen(sp?) up.

 

[watermnp]

Aside from how the car feels, a stock Supra will brake harder coming into a corner, carry more speed into the corner, and accelerate out of the corner faster than an S2000 or an M3. And be incredibly more balanced and easier to drive the entire time. Both the M3 and S2000 can bite you faster than you can imagine once you hit the limit, with no warning.

"Feedback" is an overrated magazine term. Drive the Supra for a few laps around a road course, and you know what it's doing, in spite of the light steering feel or slight wallowing of the stock sway bars. It will outperform those cars you mentioned, and any 911 short of a Turbo. The only time a Supra won't outperform those cars is on an incredibly tight low-gear autocross in a parking lot, and even then.

Honestly, when I drive my roommate's M3, I *hate* the way the steering feels, hate the way the car leans, and hate the way it always feels like it's scrabbling for traction. Course, I'm used to my car...

With a fully upgraded suspension (everything from coilovers to sway bars and more), on the road, the car isn't as nice to drive in a straight line as the M3, because it takes bumps more brutally. Other than that, I prefer the feel of the car fully upgraded - on the road course, there's no comparison, even still weighing in at 3500lbs, it's a whole different world.

-Pete

(caveat - I'm talking about the E36 M3 above, obviously, haven't driven an E46)

 

[Grant]

From riding in NA 911 996s, S2000s. and M3s at autocrosses I believe the Supra handles better than all of those cars. A Supra with pre-97 suspension (its softer and understeers more) will still be a little better, or maybe just equal. Its hard to say. With my 275/315 BFG KDs, it doesn't matter too much

That being said, all of the formentioned cars will out handle a Supra in a tight autocross, especially the 97s and 98s. As the speeds increase, so will the handling and balance of the Supra. In tight transition's the Supra's weight and soft suspension keep it from being to keep up with some of the lighter cars.

E36 M3s I don't get. IMO they have worse feel and more roll than even a 97 Supra, yet everyone raves about them. They do handle very well, but I don't see how they get such great reviews. They are great at autocrossing though.

Without a driver a BPU targa Supra should weigh 3450 lbs.

I've also ridden in an M5, and I'd have to say it doesn't handle as well as any of the cars mentioned here.

 

[SUPRAT]

Thank you! that is what I said before! I was ONLY stating for the fact of informing. I didn't get uptight, I just took your argument, compared the facts I knew, and stated them. No one here is uptight. Calm down. I wasn't getting defensive about the supra hence me saying,"I know the supra isn't see all do all." and stated twice, "No flames intended." Damn, I simply correct a statement, and get called uptight, defensive. I didn't say you couldn't drive, I simply asked if you could drive. (you can't drive very well, CAN YOU?) remember? I am TRULY sorry if it is a little harsh. I promise I will try harder on the wording just for you K?:angel: :kiss: This is after all supra forums. What did you expect? us to not set the record straight with facts? the purpose of this thread was to see how to make the mkiv handle like a 911. I offered some references to show it already does. Offer still stands. To answer your question to whoever asked-I don't remember now forgive me, Go to racing school. SCCA Autocross, Open Track, Speed Trial USA, Skip barber, Bob bondurant, Justin Bell, and numerous others. That is the best way to make your car handle better guaranteed. for the car part, coilovers and the biggest BFG G-Force tires you can fit will do fine. (e-TTC mod works too.) For the faint hearted, I am just STATING MY opinion. N-O F-L-A-M-E-S I-N-T-E-N-D-E-D.

 

[Eric]

I notice that a lot of people on this board say that the Supra TT with suspension mods can handle just as well as an S2000, 911, M3 (fill in the blank here)?

What do you really mean by that?

I define handling in terms of how fast a car is at a racetrack, specifically in terms of exit speed from a corner.

The stock Supra TT already pulls about the same amount of G’s and have similar slalom numbers as the S2000, 911, M3, etc.

Yep, although these are not very complete measures of handling. Put a set of sticky tires on and dial in a bunch of negative camber, and just about anything short of an SUV can pull decent skidpad numbers. Slalom numbers are mostly a function of how fast a car can transition, which is greatly affected by weight and is helped by having some understeer built in. The ability to transition is a lot bigger deal for autox than it is for driving on a racetrack.

But driving a Stock Supra TT I don’t get the same feedback, instant response and road feel as I do with cars like the S2000. The Supra seem to also lean a lot more than the S2000 on quick transitions.

With suspension Mods (i.e. a TRD suspension kit) can I get the same road feel, feedback, instant response and lack of lean as I do with the S2000?

You can get rid of the lean, but you probably won't get the same feel and response as a S2000 due to the difference in weight. You will get much faster lap times in a Supra though. A friend of mine had an S2000, and I was considerably (6 seconds+) faster per lap than him in a BPU Supra with coilovers. He was actually faster in the E 36 M3 he replaced it with.


Eric

 

[Reed]

There seems to be a lot of opinions flying around on this post from people that have driven these cars once or twice and formed semi expert opinions. I am not sure that this is the best way to get the straight scoop.

I have owned three MKIV Supras. I currently own a '94. I also have owned a '97 4dr M3 for the past 2 years. These cars are both exceptional handling cars.

There was an article(I think Car and Driver in '97) that ranked the best handling cars and the M3 won. The Supra did pretty well in some of the tests and was probably second or third in the test. That said, these cars are closer in overall handling than many people think.

My M3 feels much more nimble than my supra. It have vastly more predicatable handling in the corners and is much quicker on a twisty track. My Supra is a lot faster and is extremely stable in high speed benders.

To get a Supra up to the handling capabilities of an M3 I would install coilovers, 18" wheels, some good rubber and a front strut tower bar. I would set the coilovers to there softest setting for daily driving. This setup should give you something that is more comparable to an M3.

You will have a very hard time ever overcoming the weight difference if you are planning to autocross these two cars. The M3 is simply going to be hard to beat. However, if you take them out for track day, the modified supra should hand any M3(unless it is turbocharged) its ass.

My $.02,

Adam

 

[kaiwang]

I think Reed understands what I am getting at..

Or to put it another way.... you can get the "job" done wearing a condom or not wearing a condom. But it feels SOOO much better without a condom right?

With the supra's handling, I feel like im wearing a condom!!



btw. I've owned the s2000, nsx, m3 etc that I'm comparing the Supra to.

I just want to know how I can get the same handling "FEEL" of those cars from a Supra understanding the weight penalty of the Supra.


What type of suspension mods would you guys recommend?

 

[kaiwang]

Reed,

What is your opinion of sway bars on the supra?

 

[Eric]

I think Reed understands what I am getting at..

Or to put it another way.... you can get the "job" done wearing a condom or not wearing a condom. But it feels SOOO much better without a condom right?

With the supra's handling, I feel like im wearing a condom!!



btw. I've owned the s2000, nsx, m3 etc that I'm comparing the Supra to.

I just want to know how I can get the same handling "FEEL" of those cars from a Supra understanding the weight penalty of the Supra.


What type of suspension mods would you guys recommend?

If you want the feel of a light, tossable car, you're starting with the wrong platform. A 3500 lbs. front engined car just isn't going to feel as responsive as a 2700 lbs. S2000 or a well designed mid-engined car (like an NSX). The best suspension modification you can make is to get a set of coilovers and a good alignment. Don't lower the car very much because you'll run into problems with the front tires rubbing the top of the fender. TRD swaybars are not worth the money IMO (I have some on my car). They don't increase roll stiffness enough to be very useful. I used to worry about the subjective aspects of handling a lot until I started spending time on a racetrack. Then I started worrying more about laptimes. I personally love the way mkivs handle. They are well balanced, very predictable and easy to gather up if something goes wrong. They aren't as light and responsive as some other cars, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the rest of the package.

 

[Reed]

I would not spend my money on sway bars for a Supra unless you intend to track the car. I am guessing that you are talking about the experience of driving the car on a daily basis. For this type of driving, you may not even detect larger sway bars. A sway bar upgrade makes a much more pronounced impact on an M3 than a Supra in my opinion.

The bottom line is that the Supra is just a very different experience than an M3. If you like the sheer pleasure of acceleration G forces and high speed driving the Supra is the way to go. If you like a tossable car that is quick but not explosive a M3 has few weaknesses. I doubt that you will ever get a Supra to feel particularly nimble and tossable. It is just not the character of the car.

Take care,

Adam

 

[SUPRAT]